Is Obama Really this Stupid?

[JoeB131]

so the priests who have molested kids and the ones who might still be.....are not horrible people?....if the answer is yes they are.....then my previous comment stands.....

Harry, we went through this bullshit several pages back. You must've missed it or ignored it to try and revive that kind of comment. Save your outrage for the thousands of public school employees that molest children.

Let's see.... 120 priests.... over 2,000 teachers... Where's your outrage for them, Harry?
Or is that some of that new-fangled 'selective' outrage?

read the above post Guy...no.275......

I think it's the percentages, not the raw numbers. The actual number of priests who've been accused of sexual abuse in recent years is 784, not 120. Considering there are only 42,000 active Catholic priests in this country, that's still a pretty good sized percentage. 2000 teacher-related incidents is also bad, without a doubt, but there are over 3 million teachers in the US if you count part time and substitute teachers.

Here's the thing about Pedophiles. They will go where they think they can get easy access to kids. What made the Catholic actions so contemptable is that their policy of insisting on celibacy meant that they would take anyone who showed up at the door of a seminary. The Teachers at least had a screening process.

For the record, I've many times denounced on this board Teacher Unions that feel the need to defend pedophile teachers or fight for their pensions.

There was this great Documentary, Deliver us from Evil, about Catholic Priest in California who was moved from one parish to another for years. He'd get caught doing something, they'd move him. Finally, they found cops who wouldn't paper it over and this guy went to jail. But the bishop who moved him eventually became a Cardinal. Good work, everyone. Good work.

So their insisting to regulate the health plans of their secular employees is a little hypocritical, given what they let the clergy get away with.

 

[California Girl]

You really don't think Most Catholics didn't really know what the hell was going on? Really?

Let me know when the shuttle lands.

The members knew. They just didn't do anything about it because they wanted to make sure they were in good with the Imaginary Sky Friend.

400,000 priests, 120 accusations. All the blustering in the WORLD doesn't change the fact that the episodes of priests abusing kids is a VERY rare event. I went to Catholic schools in the 60's & 70's. I can assure you it didn't happen in MY parish, and there were no rumors of it, either.

So yeah, I really think most Catholics had NO IDEA.

Agreed and same here. Truth is when those stories started breaking, most Catholics were more appalled than the general public. Their angst most certainly showed up in collections, both in individual churches and to Catholic Charities too. Obama seems determined to bring those still angry to the Church, rather than against it.

This is no small feat he's doing either, since many US Catholics have a problem with the Church on birth control, priests marrying, etc. However, this obvious coercion on one of his most supportive groups is truly amazing.

The church isn't looking for those who claim to have 'been raised and terrorized and left the church,' no, the ones that count are those that identify themselves as Catholic, even when they don't worship on Sundays or abide by 'no birth control' or 'no divorce' rules. They are legion.

Of the practicing Catholics, they break about 50/50 between moderate liberal and moderate conservative - we have a small amount who are very conservative, but rarely very liberal... they usually leave the Church.

And it is true that many Catholics practice some form of birth control... and if this was about birth control, I think most of us wouldn't be overly concerned... nor would the Church itself. The issue is abortion and the morning after pill - both of which are, in the main, abhorrent to Catholics.... particularly abortion. We are strongly pro life... even Catholics who are not regular attendees at Mass usually hold fast to that core belief - that life begins at conception. To us, it is murder. If we can accept that others have their right to choose, why can they not support us in our belief too?

Interesting aside fact: During this recession, the only charity to have increased its charitable donations is the Catholic Church. Catholics care very much about the suffering of their fellow man.... and we give to support our Church's work to help those people.

 

[JoeB131]

I'll tell you what the fuck that was, it was my reply to a fucking asshole who has a personal axe to grind with the Catholic Church. How the fuck can it be "accepted by the members" when the members didn't KNOW about it? You really want to show your ignorance by proclaiming that 70 million Catholics supported priests molesting kids?

You're a fucking LIAR, FA.

You really don't think Most Catholics didn't really know what the hell was going on? Really?

Let me know when the shuttle lands.

The members knew. They just didn't do anything about it because they wanted to make sure they were in good with the Imaginary Sky Friend.

400,000 priests, 120 accusations. All the blustering in the WORLD doesn't change the fact that the episodes of priests abusing kids is a VERY rare event. I went to Catholic schools in the 60's & 70's. I can assure you it didn't happen in MY parish, and there were no rumors of it, either.

So yeah, I really think most Catholics had NO IDEA.

It was 42,000 priests in the US, and 784 incidents as of a couple years ago.

I went to Catholic Schools in the 60's and 70's, and my family was exchanging stories they heard about what happened to the priests. The biggest surprise was that the one we were sure was a gay dude was thrown out for having sex with a teenage girl.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't know why I keep having to repeat myself on this. I have - several times - condemned those priests - and the Bishops who covered up for them... and the Church itself for ignoring the problem for decades. What I will not tolerate is constant lies about my Church. I deal in facts. Accurate information. Logical thought.

Fact: 400,000 priests.
Fact: 120 accused.... that's the SUM, not SOME... but the actual figure. Worldwide. Fact: 0.03% (provided by independent academic research, and verified by law enforcement) and publicly available.
Fact: Every year, more teachers, more sports coaches, more youth workers, more children's entertainers - and a variety of other professions - are accused.

I am sick and tired of people lying about my Church.

That's simply not true.

The List: The Catholic Church

The archbishop of Dublin responded swiftly to the latest report, saying on Nov. 26, "No words of apology will ever be sufficient," and "The report highlights devastating failings of the past." The Irish police commissioner also expressed his regret in the police force's role. The Vatican, however, was less effective. In September 2009, a Vatican official responded to growing criticism by defending the clergy's action, citing statistics that showed only 1.5 to 5 percent of clergy have been involved in cases of child sex abuse -- a leaky argument that acknowledges sexual abuse by up to 20,000 priests worldwide.

That's the Vatican talking...

Now, if we just want to limite the discussion to the US.

Major Sexual Abuse Settlements in the Catholic Church

In the tables below, we document settlements involving 5,679 persons who allege sexual abuse by Catholic clergy. These survivors are only one-third of the 15,235 allegations that the bishops say they have received through 2009, and they are only 5% of the 100,000 U.S. victims that Fr. Andrew Greeley estimated in a 1993 study. Important as these settlements are, they represent a minority of known cases, and a tiny fraction of all the abuse perpetrated by Catholic clergy.

Fr. Andrew Greeley was a widely respected authority on the Church in political matters.

Catholic priests who have been accused of sexual abuse number between 5,700 and 10,000, but because of restrictive statutes of limitations, only a few hundred have been tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes. The rest are never listed on a Meghan's Law list, and society bears the terrible cost of their continued access to children.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.

It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.

I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.

If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?

(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)

Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.

Why not? You want to impose yours on them, what makes you special?

Nope. Not imposing anything on them. They are free to be as stupid, hypocritical and superstitious as they want.

They just can't use that as an excuse to try to impose their beliefs on others.

They offer health insurance, they should offer health insurance that's valid and gives complete coverage. Period.

How are you not imposing your views on them by forcing them to provide something their personal beliefs oppose? Would you also support Bachman requiring all insurers to cover treatment that cure gays? If not, what is the difference, other than you personally are offended by Catholics and people that think homosexuality can be cured?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They want the government to control everything.

It does appear that way. Perhaps that's what this is about... the Catholic Church supports more of Americans most poor than any other organization, other than the Government... so clearly we are a 'threat' to the Democrats.

NOt really.

There's an old story about a group of nuns and a group of bishops who wanted to meet with JFK, and JFK agreed to meet with the nuns because the Bishops were all Republicans.

Now, for the crazy wing of the Catholic Church, yeah, they weren't going to vote for Obama anyway.

For the sensible ones that live in the real world, this isn't an issue.

Wow. My guess is, even with the entire Internet at your finger tips, you will not be able to find a single legitimate reference to anything like that ever happening.

 

[JoeB131]

How are you not imposing your views on them by forcing them to provide something their personal beliefs oppose? Would you also support Bachman requiring all insurers to cover treatment that cure gays? If not, what is the difference, other than you personally are offended by Catholics and people that think homosexuality can be cured?

There is no scientific evidence that gay cures work.

Family planning methods are approved, scientifically validated science.

But if we were to take your very poor comparison to it's logical conclusion, no one is forcing anyone to use birth control who doesn't want to. The Bachmann example would be that she hired a gay person and then forced him to take her (probably closeted gay) Hubby's fake cure to retain employment.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the Catholics don't want contraception or abortions then don't use them. Simple as that.

They don't want to pay for them either.

Then they need to get over themselves. Seriously.

They lost the ability to whinge about it when they took big bags of federal cash.

They need to get over themselves? You are the idiot that thinks adding mandates to health insurance for political reasons is a good idea. Don't come crying to me when you are forced to pay for political policies from the other side of the aisle, it will be your fault for supporting this.

 

[Annie]

Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.

Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.

It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.

I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.

If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?

(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)

Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.

Seriously, you haven't picked up on this yet? The church shouldn't hire anyone who doesn't say they are Catholic. If need be, the Church keeps detailed records to back up such claims. Baptism, Eucharist, Penance, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Sacrament of the Sick, Death Certificate. All there, all recorded. So, just saying, "I'm Catholic" won't cut it. However for someone like you claim to be, if known that church is keeping records on those that work for them, no brainer for the Church. You claim 'Catholic', they hire you, they have documents to prove good faith hire.

 

[California Girl]

I don't know why I keep having to repeat myself on this. I have - several times - condemned those priests - and the Bishops who covered up for them... and the Church itself for ignoring the problem for decades. What I will not tolerate is constant lies about my Church. I deal in facts. Accurate information. Logical thought.

Fact: 400,000 priests.
Fact: 120 accused.... that's the SUM, not SOME... but the actual figure. Worldwide. Fact: 0.03% (provided by independent academic research, and verified by law enforcement) and publicly available.
Fact: Every year, more teachers, more sports coaches, more youth workers, more children's entertainers - and a variety of other professions - are accused.

I am sick and tired of people lying about my Church.

That's simply not true.

The List: The Catholic Church

The archbishop of Dublin responded swiftly to the latest report, saying on Nov. 26, "No words of apology will ever be sufficient," and "The report highlights devastating failings of the past." The Irish police commissioner also expressed his regret in the police force's role. The Vatican, however, was less effective. In September 2009, a Vatican official responded to growing criticism by defending the clergy's action, citing statistics that showed only 1.5 to 5 percent of clergy have been involved in cases of child sex abuse -- a leaky argument that acknowledges sexual abuse by up to 20,000 priests worldwide.

That's the Vatican talking...

Now, if we just want to limite the discussion to the US.

Major Sexual Abuse Settlements in the Catholic Church

In the tables below, we document settlements involving 5,679 persons who allege sexual abuse by Catholic clergy. These survivors are only one-third of the 15,235 allegations that the bishops say they have received through 2009, and they are only 5% of the 100,000 U.S. victims that Fr. Andrew Greeley estimated in a 1993 study. Important as these settlements are, they represent a minority of known cases, and a tiny fraction of all the abuse perpetrated by Catholic clergy.

Fr. Andrew Greeley was a widely respected authority on the Church in political matters.

Catholic priests who have been accused of sexual abuse number between 5,700 and 10,000, but because of restrictive statutes of limitations, only a few hundred have been tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes. The rest are never listed on a Meghan's Law list, and society bears the terrible cost of their continued access to children.

I'm working with current figures - from non-Catholic sources. Those figures have been accepted and verified by various law enforcement agencies around the world.

 

[JoeB131]

It does appear that way. Perhaps that's what this is about... the Catholic Church supports more of Americans most poor than any other organization, other than the Government... so clearly we are a 'threat' to the Democrats.

NOt really.

There's an old story about a group of nuns and a group of bishops who wanted to meet with JFK, and JFK agreed to meet with the nuns because the Bishops were all Republicans.

Now, for the crazy wing of the Catholic Church, yeah, they weren't going to vote for Obama anyway.

For the sensible ones that live in the real world, this isn't an issue.

Wow. My guess is, even with the entire Internet at your finger tips, you will not be able to find a single legitimate reference to anything like that ever happening.

Well, you'd be wrong.


"Monsignor, Fathers, Sisters, fellow members of the CYO:

I am glad to be here today. I said to the Monsignor coming up that I was pleased to see the Sisters, that in my experience Monsignors and Bishops are all Republicans while Sisters are all Democrats!"

Read more at the American Presidency Project: The American Presidency Project John F. Kennedy: Remarks in New York City at the National Convention of the Catholic Youth Organization.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't know why I keep having to repeat myself on this. I have - several times - condemned those priests - and the Bishops who covered up for them... and the Church itself for ignoring the problem for decades. What I will not tolerate is constant lies about my Church. I deal in facts. Accurate information. Logical thought.

Fact: 400,000 priests.
Fact: 120 accused.... that's the SUM, not SOME... but the actual figure. Worldwide. Fact: 0.03% (provided by independent academic research, and verified by law enforcement) and publicly available.
Fact: Every year, more teachers, more sports coaches, more youth workers, more children's entertainers - and a variety of other professions - are accused.

I am sick and tired of people lying about my Church.

That's simply not true.

The List: The Catholic Church



That's the Vatican talking...

Now, if we just want to limite the discussion to the US.

Major Sexual Abuse Settlements in the Catholic Church



Fr. Andrew Greeley was a widely respected authority on the Church in political matters.

Catholic priests who have been accused of sexual abuse number between 5,700 and 10,000, but because of restrictive statutes of limitations, only a few hundred have been tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes. The rest are never listed on a Meghan's Law list, and society bears the terrible cost of their continued access to children.

I'm working with current figures - from non-Catholic sources. Those figures have been accepted and verified by various law enforcement agencies around the world.

So, um, it's your argument that the Catholic Church is admitting to things it didn't do?

Sorry, I presented figures that refuted your claims for respected sources.

 

[California Girl]

Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.

Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.

It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.

I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.

If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?

(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)

Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.

Seriously, you haven't picked up on this yet? The church shouldn't hire anyone who doesn't say they are Catholic. If need be, the Church keeps detailed records to back up such claims. Baptism, Eucharist, Penance, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Sacrament of the Sick, Death Certificate. All there, all recorded. So, just saying, "I'm Catholic" won't cut it. However for someone like you claim to be, if known that church is keeping records on those that work for them, no brainer for the Church. You claim 'Catholic', they hire you, they have documents to prove good faith hire.

The Catholic Church does not discriminate on faith. For example, it employs 65,000 teachers across this country. I have no idea how many of those are Catholic, but they certainly aren't hired because they're Catholic.

 

[JoeB131]

They need to get over themselves? You are the idiot that thinks adding mandates to health insurance for political reasons is a good idea. Don't come crying to me when you are forced to pay for political policies from the other side of the aisle, it will be your fault for supporting this.

It's not a political reason, it's a practical reason.

The only people who should be in on a medical decision should be the doctor and patient. Period.

The insurance industry is already full of mandates, for a good reason. Otherwise, you'd just have insurance companies taking people's money and then refusing to pay for treatments... which by the way, is pretty much is what was happening until fairly recently.

 

[California Girl]

That's simply not true.

The List: The Catholic Church



That's the Vatican talking...

Now, if we just want to limite the discussion to the US.

Major Sexual Abuse Settlements in the Catholic Church



Fr. Andrew Greeley was a widely respected authority on the Church in political matters.

I'm working with current figures - from non-Catholic sources. Those figures have been accepted and verified by various law enforcement agencies around the world.

So, um, it's your argument that the Catholic Church is admitting to things it didn't do?

Sorry, I presented figures that refuted your claims for respected sources.

So have I. Big deal. You accept your source, I'll go with mine. Mine are academically verified... I prefer academically verified sources - they understand methodology, and they are not connected to the Church.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm working with current figures - from non-Catholic sources. Those figures have been accepted and verified by various law enforcement agencies around the world.

So, um, it's your argument that the Catholic Church is admitting to things it didn't do?

Sorry, I presented figures that refuted your claims for respected sources.

So have I. Big deal. You accept your source, I'll go with mine. Mine are academically verified... I prefer academically verified sources - they understand methodology, and they are not connected to the Church.

Ooookya, I know you really need to believe that your guy who has sworn off sex with women for life is totallly okay and really, there's nothing wrong with him at all. I know you really need to believe that.

Please, if it was just 120 cases, no one would be saying boo. It's a lot more widespread than that. Even the Church acknowledges they have a problem.

 

[Annie]

Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.

It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.

I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.

If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?

(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)

Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.

Seriously, you haven't picked up on this yet? The church shouldn't hire anyone who doesn't say they are Catholic. If need be, the Church keeps detailed records to back up such claims. Baptism, Eucharist, Penance, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Sacrament of the Sick, Death Certificate. All there, all recorded. So, just saying, "I'm Catholic" won't cut it. However for someone like you claim to be, if known that church is keeping records on those that work for them, no brainer for the Church. You claim 'Catholic', they hire you, they have documents to prove good faith hire.

The Catholic Church does not discriminate on faith. For example, it employs 65,000 teachers across this country. I have no idea how many of those are Catholic, but they certainly aren't hired because they're Catholic.

Actually in most cases in the lower schools they do. Need to have 'Catholic teachers' to teach doctrine.

What you are responding to though is my response to the Obama edict, it's what the Church should do from this point forward. Lay off non-Catholics, hire those that claim to be Catholics and have the proof of being such. The Church has those records, they've kept them for over a thousand years. Birth, baptism, and all other 'church dates.'

Same with those they should 'care for.' Catholics. Period. Rich, poor, and in between.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How are you not imposing your views on them by forcing them to provide something their personal beliefs oppose? Would you also support Bachman requiring all insurers to cover treatment that cure gays? If not, what is the difference, other than you personally are offended by Catholics and people that think homosexuality can be cured?

There is no scientific evidence that gay cures work.

Family planning methods are approved, scientifically validated science.

But if we were to take your very poor comparison to it's logical conclusion, no one is forcing anyone to use birth control who doesn't want to. The Bachmann example would be that she hired a gay person and then forced him to take her (probably closeted gay) Hubby's fake cure to retain employment.

There is plenty of scientific evidence that the only 100% effective method of birth control is abstinence. If you want to base your defense of Obama on science you are going to loose, want to try again, or will you simply admit you were wrong and that health insurance should not be required to cover things simply because a politician likes it?

If we actually take my comparison to it actual logical conclusion you will see that the issue is not about using contraceptives, it is about forcing health insurers, and employers, to cover things, and forcing people that do not want, or need, it to pay for it. Why should gay couples have to carry an insurance policy that covers the pill? Can you think of any reason two men who are married to each other should be forced to buy birth control, even if they don't use it?

That is what is you are arguing for, which is why my example about forcing insurers and employers to cover treatment for gay people a viable argument against your position. If you were actually capable of thinking logically you would see that. The fact that you are attempting to resort to misdirection and outright lies to defend your position proves you know how flimsy it is.

 

[sealybobo]

The very nature of this thread is nothing more than typical Republicans trying to control the conversation.

And notice it is them who continue to bring up religion? Its because without this wedge issue, they wouldn't stand a chance.

If Republicans really care about Christianity, no way they will vote for a Mormon. They say other Christians' do not have the authority from God. It died with Jesus' aposiles supposedly, according to Mormons.

But Mormons do have the authority. When God visited Joseph Smith in 1400, God had him pick apostles and they have passed on their authority, FROM GOD.

Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc. Mormons think your churches are nothing more than cults.

I'd rather we leave religion out of politics. I think your all crazy. But right wingers who are supporting Romney are in for a big surprise once you have picked him as your nominee. I don't think evangelicals will vote Mormon once they learn the differences. But its your job to vet him. Hope you do better than how you vetted Palin before deciding.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

NOt really.

There's an old story about a group of nuns and a group of bishops who wanted to meet with JFK, and JFK agreed to meet with the nuns because the Bishops were all Republicans.

Now, for the crazy wing of the Catholic Church, yeah, they weren't going to vote for Obama anyway.

For the sensible ones that live in the real world, this isn't an issue.

Wow. My guess is, even with the entire Internet at your finger tips, you will not be able to find a single legitimate reference to anything like that ever happening.

Well, you'd be wrong.


"Monsignor, Fathers, Sisters, fellow members of the CYO:

I am glad to be here today. I said to the Monsignor coming up that I was pleased to see the Sisters, that in my experience Monsignors and Bishops are all Republicans while Sisters are all Democrats!"

Read more at the American Presidency Project: The American Presidency Project John F. Kennedy: Remarks in New York City at the National Convention of the Catholic Youth Organization.

Thanks for proving me right. What you just linked to was a joke he told to a group of Catholics after meeting with a Monsignor, not him actually refusing to meet with any Bishops.

Congratulations, I thought rdean was the only poster to provide links that proved he didn't know enough to come in from the cold.