Is religion really so bad?

[task0778]

Religions are also a means to help and support others. Works pretty well, a helluva lot better than gov't does. Those who would kill and enslave will use whatever means necessary to achieve their ends, religion is only one of those means.

Religions strong arm people out of money and use only an infinitesimal amount of that to pretend to help others. Have you seen the price of a Popemobile?

BULLSHIT. Religions do not strongarm anybody, that is a load of crap. And I put it to you that the money from religious organizations that gets to people who need it isn't infinitesimal and it sure as hell isn't pretend either. You think gov't does it any better? And who gives a damn about the price of the popemobile?

Passing a plate in from of everyone is a strong-arm tactic.

So you're excuse is that government can't do any better, so the church can do practically nothing itself?

BULLSHIT, see my post just above. It's a choice, not a requirement and there is sure as hell no force involved and therefore it is not strong-arming. No excuses at all, various religions can and do a lot more to help those less fortunate than the any gov't does. To suggest any church does practically nothing for the less fortunate is patent BULLSHIT. I understand, you have a major hate-on for Christianity and I'm thinking Catholicism in particular, and that's fine. But your argument is as weak as water. Those who seek to do harm can and do use religion as a tool, no question about that. But that doesn't make any religion a bad thing. And some religions do have their drawbacks, such as their positions on homosexuality. But all that means is they ain't perfect, they have their flaws just like everything else in this world. So, you can choose to discard the whole thing if you want or pick and choose what you believe and what you don't, or find another religion or start your own.

Religions can't have flaws, nor do they think they have flaws, as they're supposed to be from the word of god.

Religions are run by people, and people have flaws.

 

[OnePercenter]

Faith over reason is good?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, from an individual point of view, religion can be a good thing. This is why I, as a non-religious person, actually stand up for people's rights to religion and to believe whatever they want.

However from a larger scale perspective we see the problems that people trying to separate themselves into groups and the leaders of those groups start hating on other groups just because they can gain some political advantage.

Take gay marriage. It doesn't hurt these religious people, but they'll be opposed because some knob end religious person has decided they don't like it, and go around saying that in order to be a good [insert religious adjective] you need to hate on people.

There are plenty of racists, sexists, homophobes, and all sorts of other haters out there who use religion or any other reason to support their position, whatever that might be. I do think the position that some religions take on homosexuality is deplorable, but I would not assume that all religions support that view AND there are a number of positive reasons why religion is a positive influence on society.

Let's not assume that people group themselves together just for some political advantage, there are a bunch of other reasons that are all a lot more positive. For mostof them it ain't about hate at all.

No, I'm not making the assumption that all religions are like that. We are, of course, talking as a generalization, as such we're going to have to look at things religions have in common, but may not be had by all.

But when the heads of religions all end up beating on the same people, like gay people, then you know there's a problem, at least this side of the world. For lots of individuals it's not about hate, but they end up hating anyway. They don't think they're bad people because their religion tells them they are good people, and tells them they are good for hating.

LOL, you're not making the assumption that all religions are like that, and then you say the heads of religions ALL end up beating on the same people? Do you see a little bit of divergence there? Are you sure that the heads of ALL religions are homophobic? And who are these 'heads' that you are referring to?

Here's the thing, people are people and as such heir to all the frailties and negative traits that we all have. I'm not so sure that we can or should lump all religious people together and say they're all homophobes. Or even mostly homophobes. Some are and some are not, in or out of any religion. Just like racists, sexists, etc. Yeah, there's a problem there, but can a person be a Christian and also not homophobic? I think so.

No, not really. Of the major religions, which ones aren't homophobic?

Catholic Church. Yes. Maybe the current Pope isn't, but the church certainly is.
Orthodox Church. Yes.
Islam. Yes
Judaism. Yes.
Buddhism. Yes, but the current Dalai Lama has said it's wrong for Buddhists but okay for society.

So... what am I supposed to say? That the major religions are openly embracing gay people when they're not?

Go own to minor off shoots of such religions and there is acceptance.

No, I'm not lumping all religious people together and calling them homophobes. I have been to church with gay people. And I'm not religious. My argument is that homophobia is coming from the top and leading a lot of people within these religions to view it as acceptable behavior. Wouldn't you say so?

What Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism really think of LGBTI people will surprise you

Hinduism
Hindu views of LGBTI issues are diverse and different Hindu groups have distinct views.
Overall homosexuality is regarded as one of the possible expressions of human desire. Although some Hindu dharmic texts contain injunctions against homosexuality, a number of Hindu mythic stories have portrayed same-sex experience as natural and joyful. There are even several Hindu temples with carvings that depict both men and women engaging in homosexual sex.

Sikhism
Sikhism has no specific teachings about homosexuality andӬthe Sikh holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib, does not explicitly mention it.
Views on homosexuality tend not to be a primary concern in Sikh teachings, as the universal goal of a Sikh is to have no hate or animosity to any person, regardless of race, caste, color, creed, gender, or sexuality.

Buddhism
Is homosexuality forbidden in Buddhism? Is it sexual misconduct? Let’s look at what Gautama Buddha, the founder of the religion says.
Gautama Buddha stated in one of the five precepts that lay-people should refrain from sexual misconduct. He never really elaborated on this point, only to say that a man should not fool around with a woman who is married or betrothed.
He did of course say in the Vinaya, which are the rules for monks and nuns, that they have to take a vow of celibacy, but no such rule was made for lay-people.
Buddha taught the five precepts to steer us away from cause harm to ourselves and others. It should be noted here that the precepts are not commandments, and are five things we should try to refrain from.
If the sexual act is not going to cause harm it should be consensual, affectionate, loving and not breaking any marriage vow or commitment. It should also not be abusive, such as sex with an under-age person or rape, and this includes forcing your partner into having sex.
So I believe in this way a consenting, loving homosexual act isn’t in any way against Buddha’s teachings.

Jainism
Jainism has not condemned homosexuality but it shuns all sexuality with the exception of procreation within a marriage.
This translates into no homosexual sex but does that mean it specifically shuns homosexuality? No. It reacts to homosexuality the same way it would pre-marital sex. Even sex within heterosexual marriage is only acceptable due to the need for more people to practice Jainism.
Jainism does not want to promote one sexuality or the other. All sexuality is oppressed, it just so happens that homosexual sex can not be for procreation, married or not, and therefore is not allowed at all.
So no follower from any of these faiths can claim ‘my religion says homosexuality is wrong’. At most, they can say that homosexuality is not formally endorsed by the faith – and even that requires a selective reading of the evidence.
Surely all religious heads have the moral and religious duty to re-think this issue in a modern light.


Judaism (from Wikipedia)
An edict signed by dozens of Israeli Orthodox rabbis and published in 2016 by the Israeli Modern Orthodox rabbinic group Beit Hillel, a group which promotes inclusiveness in Orthodox Judaism, stated in part, "according to the Torah and halacha, the [same-sex sexual] acts are forbidden but not the proclivities, and therefore people with same-sex tendencies, men and women, have no invalidation in halacha or tradition. They are obligated by the commandments of the Torah, they can fulfill a [ritual] obligation on behalf of the public and carry out all of the community functions just like any member.” It also stated in part, "just as it [is] inconceivable to mock someone for being physically, behaviorally, or mentally different, so too those with same-sex tendencies should not be mocked. On the contrary, those around them — family and community — should show special feeling for them, and apply to them the Torah commandment of ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself’ and to be diligent in avoiding the prohibition of insulting another."


Christianity (from me)

Some Christian denominations do not view monogamous same-sex relationships as sinful or immoral, and may even bless such unions and consider them as marriages.


There are other eastern religions and other forms of spirituality that also do not condemn homosexuality, add up the numbers and it isn't that much of a minority. But if you want to tar them all with the same broad brush of intolerance on that issue, that is your perogative.

Well, there are some central Asian religions which are far more tolerant than the three main ones that impact the West, Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

This doesn't mean that the people high up in these more tolerant religions are tolerant of gay.

Sikhism and sexual orientation - Wikipedia

"Although the topic of homosexuality in Sikhism is tabooed, "

Gay marriage is coming about in Christian countries only.

Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Mexico,[nb 1] the Netherlands,[nb 2] New Zealand,[nb 3]Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom,[nb 4] the United States[nb 5] and Uruguay.

These are the countries where gay marriage is legal. All Christian, and Christianity is full of people who are anti-gay, and the Bible is used to show that it is right and God's word. The Sikhs, the Buddhists, whoever, they're not open to gay marriage, they might have a thing that says they shouldn't hate, so they ignore, they pretend it doesn't happen so they can get on with their religion without feeling the conflict that there is.

Yes, some Christian denominations.... but we're talking about religion. Not just random Christian denominations, aren't we? We're talking about whether religion is bad or not.

• 1.1Catholic Church - 1.285 billion[2]
• 1.2Protestantism - 800 million
• 1.3Eastern Orthodoxy - 270 million
• 1.4Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million
• 1.5Anglicanism - 85 million
• 1.6Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 35 million
• 1.7Independent Catholicism - 18 million
• 1.8Minor branches - 1 million

So, that's 1.285 billion Catholics, a church that is anti gay
270 million Eastern Orthodoxy, who are anti gay
Anglicanism is anti-gay
Protestantism has so many churches that it would be hard to give numbers, but plenty of these are anti-gay too.

The only reason why Christian countries have gay marriage is because Christianity can be so loose that many "Christians" aren't really Christian much.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, not really. Of the major religions, which ones aren't homophobic?

Catholic Church. Yes. Maybe the current Pope isn't, but the church certainly is.
Orthodox Church. Yes.
Islam. Yes
Judaism. Yes.
Buddhism. Yes, but the current Dalai Lama has said it's wrong for Buddhists but okay for society.

So... what am I supposed to say? That the major religions are openly embracing gay people when they're not?

Go own to minor off shoots of such religions and there is acceptance.

No, I'm not lumping all religious people together and calling them homophobes. I have been to church with gay people. And I'm not religious. My argument is that homophobia is coming from the top and leading a lot of people within these religions to view it as acceptable behavior. Wouldn't you say so?

No, neither the Catholic churches nor Judaism is "homophobic." They weren't before gay marriage, and they are not now. If your complaint against Catholicism is that gays may not be married in the Catholic Church, that dates back to Jesus' teachings on marriage: A man and a woman til death parts them; no divorce. Doesn't mean that the Church does not recognize the validity of civil marriages; it means in the Catholic faith there is a difference between civil marriage (done by the State) and sacramental marriage (in accordance with Church teachings). The Pope's feelings regarding gays is no different from most Catholics.

Well I'd disagree. Catholicism is very homophobic, but again, we're talking from the top, the leaders. We're not necessarily talking about the rank and file, some of whom will be homophobic and some won't be, and some will try and ignore the issue.

As for excuses for the Catholic Church's homophobic, I don't need them, I know the excuses already.

 

[skye]

Of all the religions Islam is the only one which ordains compulsory jihad, killings, and takeover of the world, so certainly that religion, without question ,it's beyond bad.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Of all the religions Islam is the only one which ordains compulsory jihad, killings, and takeover of the world, so certainly that religion, without question ,it's beyond bad.

With any other religion, one would feel safe observing adherents flooding out of their place of worship.

Only in Islam is the statement correct that the more fervent the adherent, the more homicidal.

 

[task0778]

Faith over reason is good?

That would depend on the reason or reasoning. Also the faith.

 

[Mudda]

Religions can't have flaws, nor do they think they have flaws, as they're supposed to be from the word of god.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

From you people.

 

[Mudda]

Religions strong arm people out of money and use only an infinitesimal amount of that to pretend to help others. Have you seen the price of a Popemobile?

BULLSHIT. Religions do not strongarm anybody, that is a load of crap. And I put it to you that the money from religious organizations that gets to people who need it isn't infinitesimal and it sure as hell isn't pretend either. You think gov't does it any better? And who gives a damn about the price of the popemobile?

Passing a plate in from of everyone is a strong-arm tactic.

So you're excuse is that government can't do any better, so the church can do practically nothing itself?

BULLSHIT, see my post just above. It's a choice, not a requirement and there is sure as hell no force involved and therefore it is not strong-arming. No excuses at all, various religions can and do a lot more to help those less fortunate than the any gov't does. To suggest any church does practically nothing for the less fortunate is patent BULLSHIT. I understand, you have a major hate-on for Christianity and I'm thinking Catholicism in particular, and that's fine. But your argument is as weak as water. Those who seek to do harm can and do use religion as a tool, no question about that. But that doesn't make any religion a bad thing. And some religions do have their drawbacks, such as their positions on homosexuality. But all that means is they ain't perfect, they have their flaws just like everything else in this world. So, you can choose to discard the whole thing if you want or pick and choose what you believe and what you don't, or find another religion or start your own.

Religions can't have flaws, nor do they think they have flaws, as they're supposed to be from the word of god.

Religions are run by people, and people have flaws.

So not from the word of god? Good for you.

 

[Meriweather]

From you people.

I'd like to see your school days science and history tests, and the book reports you did for English. If you are as good as twisting and spinning science, history, and books as you are at twisting and spinning what you think you hear about religion, they must have been a hoot.

 

[Mudda]

From you people.

I'd like to see your school days science and history tests, and the book reports you did for English. If you are as good as twisting and spinning science, history, and books as you are at twisting and spinning what you think you hear about religion, they must have been a hoot.

Says the person who has her own personal interpretation of the bible.

 

[Meriweather]

Says the person who has her own personal interpretation of the bible.

Exactly what I am talking about. I delved more deeply into Bible Study with people much more learned than I in the language, culture, and history of Biblical times--plus I pay attention to homilies given in Church. This resulted not in a "personal interpretation" but one greater than what My Little Golden Books are able to present to children. Would you listen to a vet whose degree was earned by what he only learned from The Poky Little Puppy? Then why are you still taking the Bible series of My Little Golden Books as the epitome of Bible scholarship?

 

[Mudda]

Says the person who has her own personal interpretation of the bible.

Exactly what I am talking about. I delved more deeply into Bible Study with people much more learned than I in the language, culture, and history of Biblical times--plus I pay attention to homilies given in Church. This resulted not in a "personal interpretation" but one greater than what My Little Golden Books are able to present to children. Would you listen to a vet whose degree was earned by what he only learned from The Poky Little Puppy? Then why are you still taking the Bible series of My Little Golden Books as the epitome of Bible scholarship?

You have to convince yourself that the bible means something other than what is written, because as written, it's a comic book, and you agree, that's why you have alternate meanings for everything in it. You studied it with others who have found a way (even though absurd) to have the bible be believable, like that could ever happen, lol, I guess only if you choose to live in a fantasy world..

 

[dblack]

The problem with religion is that people end up following like sheep, and then those with the power, abuse that power.

That covers covers any social institution, most especially government.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The problem with religion is that people end up following like sheep, and then those with the power, abuse that power.

That covers covers any social institution, most especially government.

Yes, it does. But then you have religion trying to get people to kill each other over slight differences.

 

[Meriweather]

You have to convince yourself that the bible means something other than what is written, because as written, it's a comic book, and you agree, that's why you have alternate meanings for everything in it. You studied it with others who have found a way (even though absurd) to have the bible be believable, like that could ever happen, lol, I guess only if you choose to live in a fantasy world..

In order to excuse non-belief, some decide to turn scripture into slap-stick comedy. No excuse is needed for non-belief. Faith is a gift. Trust me, the Bible is not needed for faith.

Further, it is not about making the Bible "believable." It's about developing a truer understanding of it. People whose understanding of the Bible reaches only a comic book level, are missing a lot. It's comparable to people learning about villains and law enforcement via comics. Good luck with that.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, it does. But then you have religion trying to get people to kill each other over slight differences.

Current religious terrorists aside, what incidents in America do you perceive as people trying to kill each other over slight differences?

 

[OnePercenter]

Faith over reason is good?

That would depend on the reason or reasoning. Also the faith.

Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Reason is the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

ie; ALL religion is BULLSHIT.

 

[Marianne]

To hear some people you'd think so...or you'd think SOME is...but that would be looking at it only one part of it.

I do think religion helps us to think of a higher purpose, to think outside of ourselves and our immediate needs, to think of others. And that is a good thing. I'm not big into "salvation" as a formal concept...and I am firm believer that we create our own heaven and hell through our actions on earth.

I'm listening to music, the true voice of the sacred. Cat Stevens...Yusuf Islam is one. What he says makes sense and echos all the world's great faiths:

Ten Promises To Peace

Ten Promises To Peace


What has happened to the Muslim Community since the Prophet Muhammad’s passing (peace be upon him) is anything but the message of unity, love and peace he delivered. Not entirely their fault because those who prosper by dividing mankind into collective groups, those who draw lines between people and families and then make deals with violent would-be-lords, presidents and dictators, must shoulder much of the blame also.


After entering Islam through the study of the Qur’an, what shocked me was how little people knew or wanted to know about the commonalities shared between Islam and other Faiths. The partial reason for this is the ‘Blame Game’; everybody accusing the ‘others’ for the terrible condition of the world: Afghanistan, Palestine, Bosnia, Iraq, all burning flames of hatred. Whereas the fundamental message of the Prophet, calling for understanding, prayer and charity under God, is totally lost in the gun smoke and fury of the explosive wars that continue to fog many people’s understanding of Islam. Following my conversion, I realised the real battle front was ignorance and mutual antagonism, was left unattended.


After many years, and millions of fatalities the world is still a very dangerous place, and continuously in conflict. So what can we do? Well, I think we can all promise to try and make it better by following the things we all say believe in.


Lessons from the Ten Commandments


Some people perceive believers in a Divine Code of life as unfashionable and unrealistic. But these people have left the safety of God’s palace of peace, and chosen to pitch their tents outside. That’s their choice, and choice is part of the license God has given every human being. However, when laws are broken and if people commit crimes and cross the lines, you can’t blame God for what happens next. Law and Order are primary requisites that God has provided humanity to maintain peace within the palace.


One of the most important objectives of all religion is teaching people how to live together. The lessons I learnt as a school child, the Ten Commandments, are not even referred to or looked at anymore. Yet these were the rules laid down by our Creator, for the benefit and betterment of all mankind. Why are they so easily overlooked?


When we hear that over four fifths of the world’s population believe or have a faith, why are we not profiting from things we already hold as valuable and right. In Islam, the ‘Ten’ are repeated in the Qur’an and other sacred Books in so many verses and chapters. This is a plus! What is missing is commitment.


People have put their nationality and customs above the commitment to abide by a Divine template of universal rights and responsibilities.


Even the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. It goes on to describe in detail what those rights are.


So what happens? Why do some of us look down at others, and consider their lives less than equal with our own? When a person kills another from the same race and society, it’s called murder. When someone kills someone from another country it’s war. It’s a complicated subject and cannot be dealt with in this short talk, but we can realize the basis of the problem if we revisit God’s commands.​

Rest of the article at link.

And..for Christianity? What could be better expressed then in Connie Dover's Ubi Caritas.....my heart and soul



WHERE charity and love are, God is there.
Christ's love has gathered us into one.
Let us rejoice and be pleased in Him.
Let us fear, and let us love the living God.
And may we love each other with a sincere heart.

WHERE charity and love are, God is there.
As we are gathered into one body,
Beware, lest we be divided in mind.
Let evil impulses stop, let controversy cease,
And may Christ our God be in our midst.

WHERE charity and love are, God is there.
And may we with the saints also,
See Thy face in glory, O Christ our God:
The joy that is immense and good,
Unto the ages through infinite ages. Amen.

It it's purest form it's usually good,it's the dogma that follows that completely screws religion up. Most of the top ten are the basis for civilization in general; don't kill, steal,lie,cheat, covet,honor your parents and honor God. Without a set of guidelines and fear of punishment the world would be chaos. Native Americans didn't take the killing of animals or use of mother earth lightly and that led to a almost pristine and plentiful North America until Europeans came with their destructive and wasteful ways. Religion should lead to balance and harmony of humans with humans, with humans and nature and with human's with God.

 

[task0778]

Faith over reason is good?

That would depend on the reason or reasoning. Also the faith.

Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Reason is the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

ie; ALL religion is BULLSHIT.

Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Apprehension? As in afraid to not believe? Not necessarily, I know it fits your personal agenda, but fear isn't part of the deal.

Reason is the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

True. So what?

Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

Validity depends on who is doing the validation. There are a number of sciences for which absolute proof is not possible, not yet anyway.

ie; ALL religion is BULLSHIT.

Here's where you fall off the cliff, your dots do not connect and your logic totally fails. The 1st 3 statements do not conclusively support the 4th. There are scientific fields (social sciences) where the strict principles of validity cannot be applied, are they bullshit too? Let me ask you a question: Does your mother love you? Or your significant other? Do you believe these to be true? How are you going to validate that? Or is it bullshit?