Is there a third way?

[Nika2013]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

 

[Oldguy]

We already have something approximating an in between. So does most of the world. Economies here and abroad are neither pure capitalism or pure socialism, or even pure fascism.

 

[Nika2013]

But, they are not working for a lot of people, so there must be something that would work... By this I mean that the Arab Spring is no more an anomaly (as protest) than the anti-austerity movement of Greece...or the Occupy Wall Street movement in America, or the new Marxist movement in Britain and Germany. All, are saying that the systems are not working and if we do not want a Marxian world, we must find something new, or it will fill the vacuum. Or, how do we fix what we have?

 

[Oldguy]

What people is it not working for?

 

[dblack]

We already have something approximating an in between. So does most of the world. Economies here and abroad are neither pure capitalism or pure socialism, or even pure fascism.

Unfortunately, the "something in between" most of the world is descending into is corporatism. And it's worse than either capitalism or socialism. It essentially combines the worst of each.

 

[Oldguy]

We already have something approximating an in between. So does most of the world. Economies here and abroad are neither pure capitalism or pure socialism, or even pure fascism.

Unfortunately, the "something in between" most of the world is descending into is corporatism. And it's worse than either capitalism or socialism. It essentially combines the worst of each.

According to Benito Mussolini, who should know, corporatism is fascism.

Anybody want that?

 

[Obamanation]

I'll settle for FREEDOM!

That counts out socialism and fascism...

 

[dblack]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

Have you ever read any Daniel Quinn? He's got some really interesting ideas on what that Third Way might be, or at least the kind of thinking we should avoid in pursuing such a solution. From his perspective, the single most destructive premise of civilization is that there is "one right way to live" - and that the purpose of society is to push everyone toward that one right way. It's a more subtle idea than it might sound at first, and it drives nearly every social institution we have - religion, government, education etc.

His point of view is that this is an extremely dangerous approach for the future of humanity. If we fail to convince everyone to go the same way, the "one right way to live" premise causes conflict and warfare. When we succeed it's arguably worse because the resulting conformity puts all our eggs in one basket, making us vulnerable as a species if that one way turns out to be catastrophically wrong. He points to repeated examples of thriving societies that fell victim to their own success in exactly that way.

 

[dblack]

We already have something approximating an in between. So does most of the world. Economies here and abroad are neither pure capitalism or pure socialism, or even pure fascism.

Unfortunately, the "something in between" most of the world is descending into is corporatism. And it's worse than either capitalism or socialism. It essentially combines the worst of each.

According to Benito Mussolini, who should know, corporatism is fascism.

Anybody want that?

I think a lot of people do. They (usually) won't cop to the association with fascism, but they'll advocate for nearly every bullet point on the list of corporatism's key features.

 

[Nika2013]

I equate capitalism with corporatism, as I see no difference, today...

 

[Nika2013]

No..we do not want that...
and the reason people advocate for corporatism is usually because they are corporations/allies or they do not understand the consequences of supporting the same.

 

[dblack]

No..we do not want that...
and the reason people advocate for corporatism is usually because they are corporations/allies or they do not understand the consequences of supporting the same.

No offense, but I don't think you understand what 'corporatism' means. The wikipedia article on it is a pretty good overview.

 

[arKangel]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

There is a third way, there is a fourth way.... there is an unlimited amount of "ways" as long as there are individuals.

Bartering is the opposite of socialism and capitalism.

The "perfect" society is one free of usury, dishonest gain, and slavery... as Christ taught.
Of course, those who are only happy by exploiting others honesty would disagree.

Capitalism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
If you are "saying (staying?) outside of marxism and Capitalism" why are your questions book ended by the two?

 

[Nika2013]

I will look for his writing....thank you...Herbert Marcuse, former Harvard professor has similar ideas...He is sometimes called a socialist, but he was against both capitalism and Marxism.
He goes into the way words affect how we think and the traps they create in the creation of new ideas....He does this for every facet of society and I will post some of his work tomorrow

Addressed to DBlack

I read a book by Voorhees (spelling may be off) and he had good solutions, but very little ideology..but solutions are what we need...

 

[Nika2013]

The "perfect" society is one free of usury, dishonest gain, and slavery... as Christ taught.
Of course, those who are only happy by exploiting others honesty would disagree. ArKangel

Of course this is true, but we see less and less of it today...

Capitalism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
If you are "saying (staying?) outside of marxism and Capitalism" why are your questions book ended by the two?

Because capitalism is not working and Marxism is becoming the answer for large groups of people...and this seems to be the spectrum addressed on this message forum....so I asked for a third way....I am asking for suggestions on a better way...Your statement that there are as many ways as individuals may be true, but in America, most workers (other than government workers) must work for corporations, even if they are small businesses.

 

[Nika2013]

You are not free...when the wealth that you create is being transferred offshore...You are not free when free markets no longer exist...You are not free when every move that you make is regulated by government....You are not free if you must work for a corporation (unless you work for yourself) This is true no matter which party is in power...

 

[Nika2013]

(free markets as Adam Smith described them)

 

[arKangel]

The "perfect" society is one free of usury, dishonest gain, and slavery... as Christ taught.
Of course, those who are only happy by exploiting others honesty would disagree. ArKangel

Of course this is true, but we see less and less of it today...

Capitalism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
If you are "saying (staying?) outside of marxism and Capitalism" why are your questions book ended by the two?

Because capitalism is not working and Marxism is becoming the answer for large groups of people...and this seems to be the spectrum addressed on this message forum....so I asked for a third way....I am asking for suggestions on a better way...Your statement that there are as many ways as individuals may be true, but in America, most workers (other than government workers) must work for corporations, even if they are small businesses.

"We" see it? who is "we"?

Workers are individuals.
If they fail to see that, then they will be exploited by the capitalist or the socialist - whatever label they decide to give their master.

The third way you are looking for is not in between capitalism and socialism, it is outside of either.

Stop reading philosopher's tripe (philosophy is B.S.)
I recommend thinking for yourself.

 

[MikeK]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

"The man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]


The majority of our Nation's most serious problems can be solved by eliminating two very obvious problems -- political corruption and corporate greed. And here is how to do that.

1) Prohibit accumulation of personal wealth in excess of twenty million dollars.

2) Prohibit the "donating" of money or anything of material value to any political incumbent or candidate for political office. Impose severe criminal penalties for the accepting of any such "donation" and for the offering of any such donation or gift.

3) Establish a federal election tax for the purpose of financing the distribution of an informational booklet outlining the platform of candidates for elected political offices (candidates to be selected by public poll). Require broadcast media to provide, gratis, a reasonable amount of equal time coverage of each candidate's platform.

Individual states must adopt similar policies for state elections.

The amounts collected by all election taxes will be more than compensated by the elimination of corruption. This policy will eliminate politicians by attracting statesmen.

The main idea is to eliminate the sickness of greed which has infected American society and to get money out of politics. If we can do that America can be a truly great Nation.

 

[Agit8r]

If you are disillusioned with the current system no matter who is in power, is there a third way?...Without labels, can you think of a system that you would accept that has a non-utopian chance of succeeding? Do you believe in bartering, or do you call this socialism? Is there a way to exchange labor, outside of the system? (not on the black market) Do you believe in free markets, even though they do not exist? Without blaming one party, or person, can you express why you are disillusioned? What is the perfect society economically? These are a lot of questions, but they are a start in building a Third Way.....By third way, I mean between capitalism as it exists today and and Marxist-Socialism. Neither one or the other, but something in between?
Once again, I am not advocating Marxism....I am saying outside of Marxism and capitalism (as it exists)

You could go halfway between, but it would still be to the left of the Democrats