Islamic State: The Terror We Give is the Terror We Get

[Ringel05]

Interesting take, sooooo, what you're (via the article) claiming is we are responsible for all acts of terrorism, that those acts are only a response to what we do and there are no other causative factors........ no other origins......
I'm sure you'll find some other delusional people to believe this, try the conspiracy theory section, they wear tinfoil hats also.

You actually believe if we didn't have a foreign policy that meddled in the Saudi Arabia, gave millions in foreign aid to Israel to create an Apartheid State, and funded a clandestine black ops drug running war and the attendant war lords in South East Asia that these problems would have occurred? Are you seriously this misinformed?

Oh great, another myopic moron who failed HS history and never actually studied the cultures of the area but still feels informed enough to comment on the subject......... Your tin foil hat is slipping sideways, ya need to straighten it out.

Actually, I had a very good Honors History teacher that helped me achieve a 4 on my history AP and comp out of my college history requirement at State. When I couldn't think of a topic to do my term paper on, he suggested I research how the Roosevelt administration maneuvered the American public into a war they didn't want against Japan.

I had always thought that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise. Imagine my shock and horror when I found out that the American government not only knew it was coming, but forced Japan's hand. Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
Pearl Harbor Hawaii Was Surprised FDR Was Not

Comprehensive research has shown not only that Washington knew in advance of the attack, but that it deliberately withheld its foreknowledge from our commanders in Hawaii in the hope that the "surprise" attack would catapult the U.S. into World War II. Oliver Lyttleton, British Minister of Production, stated in 1944: "Japan was provoked into attacking America at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty of history to say that America was forced into the war."

So you had a history teacher who led you to historical facts that you then took and twisted towards some vast conspiracy. Of course we drove Japan to take the only option the hardliners in Japan thought they had but it was Japan's aggression in the far east that that caused us to place sanctions on her. As for an attack from Japan, we (the government and military) strongly suspected that one would come we just didn't know for sure where it would happen, yes we were surprised it happened where it did.
If you wish to take innuendo and interpreted "facts" to claim FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen then by all means, be my guest, only shows how willing you are to wear a tinfoil hat. Did he know we needed to be involved (primarily in Europe) yes he did and yes he did many things to lead us there but purposely allowing a destructive surprise attack to occur to further that end is the realm of anti-government paranoids.
My primary history professor was Dr Wall, a visiting professor at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and at the U.S.
Military Academy at West Point, written 5 books and scads of historical articles. Most freshmen students were unfamiliar with his teaching and testing style, he never gave multiple guess or fill in the blank, it was always a minimum of 10 essay questions, who, what, when where, what led up to it and what resulted in it......... Oh and here's the textbook plus 4 other books on the subject being studied, ya better read them all...........

 

[MisterBeale]

Interesting take, sooooo, what you're (via the article) claiming is we are responsible for all acts of terrorism, that those acts are only a response to what we do and there are no other causative factors........ no other origins......
I'm sure you'll find some other delusional people to believe this, try the conspiracy theory section, they wear tinfoil hats also.

You actually believe if we didn't have a foreign policy that meddled in the Saudi Arabia, gave millions in foreign aid to Israel to create an Apartheid State, and funded a clandestine black ops drug running war and the attendant war lords in South East Asia that these problems would have occurred? Are you seriously this misinformed?

Oh great, another myopic moron who failed HS history and never actually studied the cultures of the area but still feels informed enough to comment on the subject......... Your tin foil hat is slipping sideways, ya need to straighten it out.

Actually, I had a very good Honors History teacher that helped me achieve a 4 on my history AP and comp out of my college history requirement at State. When I couldn't think of a topic to do my term paper on, he suggested I research how the Roosevelt administration maneuvered the American public into a war they didn't want against Japan.

I had always thought that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise. Imagine my shock and horror when I found out that the American government not only knew it was coming, but forced Japan's hand. Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
Pearl Harbor Hawaii Was Surprised FDR Was Not

Comprehensive research has shown not only that Washington knew in advance of the attack, but that it deliberately withheld its foreknowledge from our commanders in Hawaii in the hope that the "surprise" attack would catapult the U.S. into World War II. Oliver Lyttleton, British Minister of Production, stated in 1944: "Japan was provoked into attacking America at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty of history to say that America was forced into the war."

So you had a history teacher who led you to historical facts that you then took and twisted towards some vast conspiracy. Of course we drove Japan to take the only option the hardliners in Japan thought they had but it was Japan's aggression in the far east that that caused us to place sanctions on her. As for an attack from Japan, we (the government and military) strongly suspected that one would come we just didn't know for sure where it would happen, yes we were surprised it happened where it did.
If you wish to take innuendo and interpreted "facts" to claim FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen then by all means, be my guest, only shows how willing you are to wear a tinfoil hat. Did he know we needed to be involved (primarily in Europe) yes he did and yes he did many things to lead us there but purposely allowing a destructive surprise attack to occur to further that end is the realm of anti-government paranoids.
My primary history professor was Dr Wall, a visiting professor at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and at the U.S.
Military Academy at West Point, written 5 books and scads of historical articles. Most freshmen students were unfamiliar with his teaching and testing style, he never gave multiple guess or fill in the blank, it was always a minimum of 10 essay questions, who, what, when where, what led up to it and what resulted in it......... Oh and here's the textbook plus 4 other books on the subject being studied, ya better read them all...........

All of which played nicely into our imperial corporate policy agenda. To say that our military didn't know where the attack was going to come is up for debate though. Just like the claim that this whole ISIS debacle has caught our military and policy makers by surprise.

When you push people into a corner, when you play certain factions off of one another, when you use economics to manipulate the world to your liking, don't be surprised when it bites you in the ass.




How quaint. Nice that we can see some things eye to eye. However, I have great respect for you Ringel, I won't dignify your personnel Ad hominem attacks with a response. You could just admit that there are indeed different ways to perceive the world. Only the ignorant and unwise view the world in such a black and white manner. If it were that simple, peace would have been achieved a millennia ago. There is much truth in what you say, both about Japan's motives, and the motives of Islamic radicals. However, to not recognize the ruling elites intent to use those interests in their selfish manipulation of world events is to be ignorant of reality. The same way as it is ignorant to not understand that the king rules over his church and kingdom while keeping his vassals ignorant of his motives.

The teachers I had were not all mighty, all knowing gods, nor were yours. That is an appeal to authority fallacy, this you should be intelligent enough to know. When we yield our point of view to those we perceive as the final word, we are in danger of giving up the responsibility of intellectual curiosity and sovereign thought.

The truth generally lay somewhere in between.

 

[Ringel05]

Interesting take, sooooo, what you're (via the article) claiming is we are responsible for all acts of terrorism, that those acts are only a response to what we do and there are no other causative factors........ no other origins......
I'm sure you'll find some other delusional people to believe this, try the conspiracy theory section, they wear tinfoil hats also.

You actually believe if we didn't have a foreign policy that meddled in the Saudi Arabia, gave millions in foreign aid to Israel to create an Apartheid State, and funded a clandestine black ops drug running war and the attendant war lords in South East Asia that these problems would have occurred? Are you seriously this misinformed?

Oh great, another myopic moron who failed HS history and never actually studied the cultures of the area but still feels informed enough to comment on the subject......... Your tin foil hat is slipping sideways, ya need to straighten it out.

Actually, I had a very good Honors History teacher that helped me achieve a 4 on my history AP and comp out of my college history requirement at State. When I couldn't think of a topic to do my term paper on, he suggested I research how the Roosevelt administration maneuvered the American public into a war they didn't want against Japan.

I had always thought that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise. Imagine my shock and horror when I found out that the American government not only knew it was coming, but forced Japan's hand. Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
Pearl Harbor Hawaii Was Surprised FDR Was Not

Comprehensive research has shown not only that Washington knew in advance of the attack, but that it deliberately withheld its foreknowledge from our commanders in Hawaii in the hope that the "surprise" attack would catapult the U.S. into World War II. Oliver Lyttleton, British Minister of Production, stated in 1944: "Japan was provoked into attacking America at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty of history to say that America was forced into the war."

So you had a history teacher who led you to historical facts that you then took and twisted towards some vast conspiracy. Of course we drove Japan to take the only option the hardliners in Japan thought they had but it was Japan's aggression in the far east that that caused us to place sanctions on her. As for an attack from Japan, we (the government and military) strongly suspected that one would come we just didn't know for sure where it would happen, yes we were surprised it happened where it did.
If you wish to take innuendo and interpreted "facts" to claim FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen then by all means, be my guest, only shows how willing you are to wear a tinfoil hat. Did he know we needed to be involved (primarily in Europe) yes he did and yes he did many things to lead us there but purposely allowing a destructive surprise attack to occur to further that end is the realm of anti-government paranoids.
My primary history professor was Dr Wall, a visiting professor at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and at the U.S.
Military Academy at West Point, written 5 books and scads of historical articles. Most freshmen students were unfamiliar with his teaching and testing style, he never gave multiple guess or fill in the blank, it was always a minimum of 10 essay questions, who, what, when where, what led up to it and what resulted in it......... Oh and here's the textbook plus 4 other books on the subject being studied, ya better read them all...........

All of which played nicely into our imperial corporate policy agenda. To say that our military didn't know where the attack was going to come is up for debate though. Just like the claim that this whole ISIS debacle has caught our military and policy makers by surprise.

When you push people into a corner, when you play certain factions off of one another, when you use economics to manipulate the world to your liking, don't be surprised when it bites you in the ass.




How quaint. Nice that we can see some things eye to eye. However, I have great respect for you Ringel, I won't dignify your personnel Ad hominem attacks with a response. You could just admit that there are indeed different ways to perceive the world. Only the ignorant and unwise view the world in such a black and white manner. If it were that simple, peace would have been achieved a millennia ago. There is much truth in what you say, both about Japan's motives, and the motives of Islamic radicals. However, to not recognize the ruling elites intent to use those interests in their selfish manipulation of world events is to be ignorant of reality. The same way as it is ignorant to not understand that the king rules over his church and kingdom while keeping his vassals ignorant of his motives.

The teachers I had were not all mighty, all knowing gods, nor were yours. That is an appeal to authority fallacy, this you should be intelligent enough to know. When we yield our point of view to those we perceive as the final word, we are in danger of giving up the responsibility of intellectual curiosity and sovereign thought.

The truth generally lay somewhere in between.

Never claimed there are those who didn't and aren't making use of events, commodities, peoples for personal and power reasons, matter of fact I've stated that is the norm on many occasions as well as national and global manipulations, that's part of the huge global "game" we're involved in. Global politics is Machiavellian by nature and we're the big dogs on the block right now, I'd rather it be us than Russia, Iran or China so the "game" goes on and every single one of us be it a hermit in a cave to a President, Prime Minister or dictator are potential pawns.
As for Education, you mentioned your background, I mentioned mine and no we and our teachers are not all powerful and all knowing.
Generally in my dealings with Conspiracy Theorists I find I'm dealing with clueless, paranoid demagogs so I tend to fall back on the only reasonable response, dismissive derision, your post above shows that isn't necessarily the case with you so you have my apologies.
As for giving up the responsibility of intellectual curiosity there's a fine line between that and delusional questioning/interpretation to rationalize a demagogic world view. Besides I've made it no secret I firmly believe in the Life Cycle of Empires and that we've already started our down hill slide so very few people are concerned with asking such questions and wouldn't care if all the conspiracy theories in the world were true, they're just trying to exist in their individual little worlds.

 

[Stephanie]

Man oh man, those sound like the words of a traitor.

or do we have Obama's reverend wright on here posting now?

 

[georgephillip]

I would add
that muzzzies and other losers from the world over are
excited over this fantasy land THE CALIPHATE........it even excites you (IMHO) ---------the USA did not do it----Israel did not do it -----the elders of zion did not do it------IN FACT ---
muslims have been doing it for 1400 years.

rosie, I would have to disagree about the US and Israel exploiting the sectarian madness in the Middle East in the interests of Empire. Muslims have been killing each other for 1400 years as have Jews and Christians, and it wasn't the Muslims who were pitting Catholic against Protestant in Ireland. In fact, it is the same rich parasites in England who got richer from violence in North Ireland who are today getting richer from Sunni Shiite violence in Iraq and Syria. IMHO, you should give Oded Yinon and his plan much greater respect.

 

[georgephillip]

Muslims are not human and should be exterminated.

 

[georgephillip]

Obviously you have no clue concerning the difference between war and terrorism. And I know what your response will be, it'll be just as myopically ignorant as the statement I'm responding to........

Why do you provide your definition of "terrorism?"

 

[georgephillip]

Yes, I'm aware of Mohammad Mosaddegh and what the Brits and the US did, still changes nothing. Let me ask you a question, how long have we controlled oil production in Iran since 1979...........? Oops........

What do you imagine that proves, Moron?

 

[georgephillip]

We were discussing the aspects of how some countries nationalized or had their oil production placed in their hands that was what you asked me to provide evidence of. Guess you forgot about that part..........

Obviously, you missed the part about US puppets like the Shah of Iran "controlling" our oil. Were you homeschooled?

 

[georgephillip]

Yo knumb knuts, originally everyone of these poor countries welcomed us in as we had the wherewithal and knowledge to build the infrastructure they lacked. In case you haven't noticed all that has changed dramatically over the decades....... Well maybe you hadn't noticed.........

Do you find thinking critically a challenge? Apparently you do if you imagine Arab dictators ruling without US control. What sort of welcome did the Arab Spring find in Bahrain, about the same as Mossadeq in Iran?

 

[georgephillip]

1. You knock over two of our buildings, we knock over two of your countries.

2. You kill 3,000 of us, we kill 300,000 of you.

Vengeance... a hundred-fold... a thousand-fold... will continue to be the modus operandi, as long as you dare to strike at us.

Don't want to suffer 100-to-1 or 1000-to-1 kill-ratios?

Don't strike at us.

Simple.

Otherwise, be it upon your heads, not ours.

We will tear you a new asshole... anytime you feel like messing with us.

Yeppers on parade

Have we not knocked over two of their countries?

Have we not killed 300,000 of theirs in response to their killing 3,000 of ours?

To me, that does not indicate Keyboard Warrior status.

To me, that indicates a Reciter of Fact.

Then again, you would know nothing of warriors...

Having pussied out of Air Force basic training after 10 days on a phony-baloney medical discharge with a phone-baloney bad back.

Pissant.

Punk.

 

[Ringel05]

Obviously you have no clue concerning the difference between war and terrorism. And I know what your response will be, it'll be just as myopically ignorant as the statement I'm responding to........

Why do you provide your definition of "terrorism?"

In the case of terrorism, the targets are most often often innocent citizens who have nothing to do with ideologies and the struggles. Terrorists achieve their objective of striking fear and terror which they believe will lead to their "independence" or political/religious ideals.
War is generally a conflict between nations where definite military and infrastructure targets are the primary attack points and in modern times (post Vietnam) many countries try their best to minimize civilian casualties though not always sucessfully.

 

[Ringel05]

Yo knumb knuts, originally everyone of these poor countries welcomed us in as we had the wherewithal and knowledge to build the infrastructure they lacked. In case you haven't noticed all that has changed dramatically over the decades....... Well maybe you hadn't noticed.........

Do you find thinking critically a challenge? Apparently you do if you imagine Arab dictators ruling without US control. What sort of welcome did the Arab Spring find in Bahrain, about the same as Mossadeq in Iran?

Yeah, that's why Saudi Arabia will not help out US oil production by limiting their oil driving prices back up and allowing the more expensive US oil recovery systems to function at a profit........
It appears the one suffering from cognitive shutdown isn't me........

 

[georgephillip]

In the case of terrorism, the targets are most often often innocent citizens who have nothing to do with ideologies and the struggles. Terrorists achieve their objective of striking fear and terror which they believe will lead to their "independence" or political/religious ideals.
War is generally a conflict between nations where definite military and infrastructure targets are the primary attack points and in modern times (post Vietnam) many countries try their best to minimize civilian casualties though not always sucessfully.

More succinctly?
"ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun

1. the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Google

 

[Ringel05]

We were discussing the aspects of how some countries nationalized or had their oil production placed in their hands that was what you asked me to provide evidence of. Guess you forgot about that part..........

Obviously, you missed the part about US puppets like the Shah of Iran "controlling" our oil. Were you homeschooled?

The Shah of Iran...... Uummmmmm, let's see...... Hasn't he been dead since 1980.......? Let's see it's 2015, I wonder when he last controlled any oil.........

 

[Ringel05]

In the case of terrorism, the targets are most often often innocent citizens who have nothing to do with ideologies and the struggles. Terrorists achieve their objective of striking fear and terror which they believe will lead to their "independence" or political/religious ideals.
War is generally a conflict between nations where definite military and infrastructure targets are the primary attack points and in modern times (post Vietnam) many countries try their best to minimize civilian casualties though not always sucessfully.

More succinctly?
"ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun

1. the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Google

Yeah, but that's the generic (old) definition, the face and nature of terrorism has changed, I pointed out what that difference is, not smart enough ta figure it out are ya Sparky........

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, that's why Saudi Arabia will not help out US oil production by limiting their oil driving prices back up and allowing the more expensive US oil recovery systems to function at a profit........
It appears the one suffering from cognitive shutdown isn't me........

The Saudis deserve credit for driving frackers out of business, but that issue hardly qualifies as a deal breaker with US elites. Imagine the difference if Saudi Arabia started selling its oil for a basket of currencies instead of the US $$$. Think that might produce a different result in DC?

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, but that's the generic (old) definition, the face and nature of terrorism has changed, I pointed out what that difference is, not smart enough ta figure it out are ya Sparky........

Think real hard, Butch.
Which country in the greatest purveyor of violence in the world?
Still stuck, Stupid?

 

[Ringel05]

Yeah, but that's the generic (old) definition, the face and nature of terrorism has changed, I pointed out what that difference is, not smart enough ta figure it out are ya Sparky........

Think real hard, Butch.
Which country in the greatest purveyor of violence in the world?
Still stuck, Stupid?

Betcha you're gonna say the US and point to even those wars we were legitimately involved in ain'tcha........ As usual you'd be wrong. Might I suggest you actually study world history in it's entirety, not just that which feeds your wacked out world view........ Absolutely clueless ain'tcha.......

 

[Ringel05]

Yeah, that's why Saudi Arabia will not help out US oil production by limiting their oil driving prices back up and allowing the more expensive US oil recovery systems to function at a profit........
It appears the one suffering from cognitive shutdown isn't me........

The Saudis deserve credit for driving frackers out of business, but that issue hardly qualifies as a deal breaker with US elites. Imagine the difference if Saudi Arabia started selling its oil for a basket of currencies instead of the US $$$. Think that might produce a different result in DC?

Uummmmm, wonder where your proof of that is....... uummmmmm.......