Israel is kicking ass

[Shusha]

You understood what I asked. And please answer directly on my question - what if the Arabs in Israel demanded to exercise their right on self-determination, would the Israeli government grant it to them?

1. The Israeli government doesn't "grant" self-determination to another peoples. It doesn't work like that. (Although we can get into some really technical legal weeds here which haven't fully developed in international customary law about secession vs territorial integrity).

2. The Israeli government already HAS agreed to self-determination for Arab Palestinians. Multiple times.

3. The Arab Palestinians need to have a peaceful, effective government to negotiate boundaries and other issues leading to a peace treaty.

Does that answer your question?

 

[BackAgain]

Kicking ass means killing babies for Israel.

But it means something else for Hezzbullah?

 

[AMart]

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

That's an excellent talk, people seeking peace but (as is always the case) not the Israelis.

"...and who brags because they have the US military in their pocket, it's really amazing..."

Far too many Americans are clueless about Israel, about Zionism, about lobbying and about history, the most powerful nation in history is also the least educated and most inept. Only a clueless populace would ever elect a deadbeat fake like Trump, I fear the US is doomed, it's respect and authority are evaporating as we watch.

 

[AMart]

 

[ESay]

1. The Israeli government doesn't "grant" self-determination to another peoples. It doesn't work like that. (Although we can get into some really technical legal weeds here which haven't fully developed in international customary law about secession vs territorial integrity).

2. The Israeli government already HAS agreed to self-determination for Arab Palestinians. Multiple times.

3. The Arab Palestinians need to have a peaceful, effective government to negotiate boundaries and other issues leading to a peace treaty.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, thanks. So, you admit that the Israeli government won't grant any self-determination rights to another people. And that is understandable, because that would contradict the very idea of Israel being a Jewish state.

The same is true for the Arab people that can think in categories of faith, land, family, clan etc.

The problem here is Western people come to them and try to put things in their way, pushing ideas and ideals that are unclear and insufficient for the local population.

 

[Shusha]

Yes, thanks. So, you admit that the Israeli government won't grant any self-determination rights to another people.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not what I said. I said that self-determination doesn't work like that. One people does not "grant" self-determination to another people. A State doesn't "grant" self-determination.

Further, I said that Israel has already recognized the rights of Arab Palestinians to self-determination (and statehood) and has put forth a number of plans for implementation.

 

[Shusha]

The problem here is Western people come to them and try to put things in their way, pushing ideas and ideals that are unclear and insufficient for the local population.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Might you be suggesting that the idea of "self-determination" is not a cultural value of Arabs/Muslims? That is is an alien western concept which is being imposed on them?

 

[ESay]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not what I said. I said that self-determination doesn't work like that. One people does not "grant" self-determination to another people. A State doesn't "grant" self-determination.

Further, I said that Israel has already recognized the rights of Arab Palestinians to self-determination (and statehood) and has put forth a number of plans for implementation.

Of course it is a state grants. Israel didn't grant them that. They were not under its authority.

 

[ESay]

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Might you be suggesting that the idea of "self-determination" is not a cultural value of Arabs/Muslims? That is is an alien western concept which is being imposed on them?

It is not a cultural value of the Oriental people. And to put it straight, not the Western people, either. It is applied when that suits them. Should I provide some examples?

 

[Shusha]

Of course it is a state grants. Israel didn't grant them that. They were not under its authority.

This post isn't coherent to me.

But, again, no. Self-determination is not "granted". The right to self-determination is recognized. The ability to self-determine develops. The territorial acquisition for national/sovereign self-determination is negotiated between the parties involved. Then further agreements, and peace treaties.

The Arab Palestinians can't be "given" self-determination. It's not a piece of pizza.

 

[Shusha]

It is not a cultural value of the Oriental people. And to put it straight, not the Western people, either. It is applied when that suits them. Should I provide some examples?

Well, I'm a little disturbed by the archaic terminology, but sure, give me some examples. It would probably help give me clarity on what you mean.

 

[ESay]

This post isn't coherent to me.

But, again, no. Self-determination is not "granted". The right to self-determination is recognized. The ability to self-determine develops. The territorial acquisition for national/sovereign self-determination is negotiated between the parties involved. Then further agreements, and peace treaties.

The Arab Palestinians can't be "given" self-determination. It's not a piece of pizza.

And who should recognize this right?

 

[Shusha]

And who should recognize this right?

Its kinda the standard now in international thought and humanitarian law, so everyone.

 

[ESay]

Well, I'm a little disturbed by the archaic terminology, but sure, give me some examples. It would probably help give me clarity on what you mean.

I mean that right on self-determination is just a tool that is used when it seems appropriate. The Serb regions in former Yugoslavia, where they were ethnically cleansed (Serbska Kraina) in Croatia or denied independence (Bosnia). But Kosovo was recognized by the West.

Catalonia and Spanish government's crackdown on its local government that pursued independence.

 

[ESay]

Its kinda the standard now in international thought and humanitarian law, so everyone.

Oh come on. Sorry, but that is just silly.

 

[Shusha]

I mean that right on self-determination is just a tool that is used when it seems appropriate. The Serb regions in former Yugoslavia, where they were ethnically cleansed (Serbska Kraina) in Croatia or denied independence (Bosnia). But Kosovo was recognized by the West.

Catalonia and Spanish government's crackdown on its local government that pursued independence.

Yep. And this is definitely getting into the weeds of secession and territorial integrity which has not been settled under international law. Worthwhile and interesting conversation. However, surprisingly less relevant to Israel / Palestine, since Israel recognizes the right to Arab Palestinian self-determination, and is willing to allow secession and implement it. (Or at least would be if Arab Palestinians just put down their weapons.)

 

[ESay]

Yep. And this is definitely getting into the weeds of secession and territorial integrity which has not been settled under international law. Worthwhile and interesting conversation. However, surprisingly less relevant to Israel / Palestine, since Israel recognizes the right to Arab Palestinian self-determination, and is willing to allow secession and implement it. (Or at least would be if Arab Palestinians just put down their weapons.)

What secession is it willing to allow? Speaking about territories.

 

[Shusha]

Oh come on. Sorry, but that is just silly.

Don't ask silly questions, if you don't want silly answers. Self-determination, as a humanitarian and legal concept, began developing about a hundred years ago. It's pretty standard since the world underwent the dissolution of Empires in favour of local affinities.

Arab Palestinians already have significant territorial areas of autonomy.

 

[Shusha]

What secession is it willing to allow? Speaking about territories.

Last I checked, 97% of the territory the Arab Palestinians claimed to want. But that deal is no longer viable.