Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Hollie]

Verbatim text from the A/364 Resolution and the Survey is not subjective, it is objective fact.

The Ottoman land records refute nothing. How could they, the Ottomans were long gone when the Jews began buying land in earnest in Palestine.

In any case, Turkish (post-Ottoman) land registry data was used to baseline land ownership up to 1917, when the British conquered Palestine.

Actually, the Ottoman Iand records refute your article. We know that foreign absentee Iand owners controlled large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" and that much of the land area was kept as an islamo-waqf.

You need to find some new articles to cut and paste.

The Ottoman records confirm that prior to 1917 more than at least 90% of the land in Palestine was owned by the Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine. This was the baseline used to prepare the Survey and Resolution A/364 which confirm the fact.

In any case, the Ottoman records would have no data post 1917, how could the Ottoman records refute Resolution A/364 of 1947 or the Survey completed in 1946? The definitive statement of the resolution is below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

As we know, the Ottoman's were the entity that controlled your invented "country of Pal'istan'. We know from their records that foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon owned large tracts of land. We also know from the Ottoman records that the Ottoman's kept majority land areas as an islamist waqf.

I'm afraid you're just uninformed.

 

[montelatici]

Verbatim text from the A/364 Resolution and the Survey is not subjective, it is objective fact.

The Ottoman land records refute nothing. How could they, the Ottomans were long gone when the Jews began buying land in earnest in Palestine.

In any case, Turkish (post-Ottoman) land registry data was used to baseline land ownership up to 1917, when the British conquered Palestine.

Actually, the Ottoman Iand records refute your article. We know that foreign absentee Iand owners controlled large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" and that much of the land area was kept as an islamo-waqf.

You need to find some new articles to cut and paste.

The Ottoman records confirm that prior to 1917 more than at least 90% of the land in Palestine was owned by the Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine. This was the baseline used to prepare the Survey and Resolution A/364 which confirm the fact.

In any case, the Ottoman records would have no data post 1917, how could the Ottoman records refute Resolution A/364 of 1947 or the Survey completed in 1946? The definitive statement of the resolution is below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

As we know, the Ottoman's were the entity that controlled your invented "country of Pal'istan'. We know from their records that foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon owned large tracts of land. We also know from the Ottoman records that the Ottoman's kept majority land areas as an islamist waqf.

I'm afraid you're just uninformed.

Just making things up doesn't make them true. You know nothing from the Ottoman records that conflict with the British adoption of said records for the baseline of the British land registry for Palestine. The UN clearly stated the amount of land owned by the Arab population of Palestine in 1947 via resolution A/364.

If you have a source documents that conflict with the UN's reading of the Ottoman land records which the UN based their determination on, I suggest you contact the UN so that they may correct the error. If you don't have the source documentation, then shut up and accept the facts, as per A/364 para 164 below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

 

[Hollie]

Verbatim text from the A/364 Resolution and the Survey is not subjective, it is objective fact.

The Ottoman land records refute nothing. How could they, the Ottomans were long gone when the Jews began buying land in earnest in Palestine.

In any case, Turkish (post-Ottoman) land registry data was used to baseline land ownership up to 1917, when the British conquered Palestine.

Actually, the Ottoman Iand records refute your article. We know that foreign absentee Iand owners controlled large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" and that much of the land area was kept as an islamo-waqf.

You need to find some new articles to cut and paste.

The Ottoman records confirm that prior to 1917 more than at least 90% of the land in Palestine was owned by the Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine. This was the baseline used to prepare the Survey and Resolution A/364 which confirm the fact.

In any case, the Ottoman records would have no data post 1917, how could the Ottoman records refute Resolution A/364 of 1947 or the Survey completed in 1946? The definitive statement of the resolution is below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

As we know, the Ottoman's were the entity that controlled your invented "country of Pal'istan'. We know from their records that foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon owned large tracts of land. We also know from the Ottoman records that the Ottoman's kept majority land areas as an islamist waqf.

I'm afraid you're just uninformed.

Just making things up doesn't make them true. You know nothing from the Ottoman records that conflict with the British adoption of said records for the baseline of the British land registry for Palestine. The UN clearly stated the amount of land owned by the Arab population of Palestine in 1947 via resolution A/364.

If you have a source documents that conflict with the UN's reading of the Ottoman land records which the UN based their determination on, I suggest you contact the UN so that they may correct the error. If you don't have the source documentation, then shut up and accept the facts, as per A/364 para 164 below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

You're getting quite frantic over issues you're befuddled about. We know from the official Ottoman land records that foreigners owned large tracts of land and that the Ottoman's controlled a majority of your invented "country of Pal'istan" an an islamist waqf.

I understand your feelings are hurt because your frantic cutting and pasting was a waste of time.

 

[Shusha]

Oh monte, it is a fruitless hope that you will actually READ the documents from which you quote and which are the source materials from the documents you quote.

Survey of Palestine, Volume 1, page 257 and 258:

80. A considerable area of land is purchased or acquired by Government. This, of course, becomes private property of the Government, although some, such as roads and irrigation channels is devoted to use by the community.

81. The account given above describes the various divisions of of legal tenure in which public lands are controlled by the State. Land which ... is found to belong to the State is registered ... in trust for the Government of Palestine.

82. The Royal Commission of 1937 found that a really final and reliable statement of the Government domains and waste lands would not be possible until the operations of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance was concluded over the whole country. Some 12, 577 sq kms lie in the deserts of Beersheba. It is possible that there might be private claims to over 2000 sq kms which are cultivated from time to time. The remainder might be considered mewat or empty miri. None of it has come under the operation of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance. Excluding Beersheba, the remaining land of Palestine is 13, 743 sq kms. Some 3000 of this is represented by the tract of mountainous wilderness east of Hebron, Jerusalem and Nablus. When this comes under settlement of title, a large part of it will doubtless be found to be empty State land. In the remaining 10, 743 sq kms ... more than 7000 are cultivated and may be assumed to contain a preponderance of private property, some will no doubt to be found to be part of village land. In addition to the area of 660 sq km settled as State Domain of Palestine, there is an area of 900 sq kms in respect of which there are certain records indicating that this is probably Government property. When the settlement of rights is complete there is no doubt that the figure 1560 sq kms (ie 660 plus 900) will be considerably increased...

Let's do some math, shall we?

12577 less 2000 of possible private ownership because it is sometimes cultivated = 10577 sq kms of State Land
13743 less 10743 = 3000 more sq kms of State Land
10743 less 7000 of cultivation (estimated) = 3000 more sq kms of State Land

Which gives us a total of 16,577 sq kms of Land which is not cultivated and is either dead land (mewat) or empty land (miri) and is most certainly not under any private ownership, let alone private ownership of residents of Palestine. Which is roughly 63% of the total sq kms of "Palestine".

 

[Shusha]

The UN clearly stated the amount of land owned by the Arab population of Palestine in 1947 via resolution A/364.

Yeah, well the UN states that Jewish self-determination is racist and that the Holy Places in Jerusalem are exclusively Muslim. Doesn't make it true.

And the document you've been quoting from (A364) is a report to the UNGA, not a resolution.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Sometimes you guys really -- crack me up.

Verbatim text from the A/364 Resolution and the Survey is not subjective, it is objective fact.

The Ottoman land records refute nothing. How could they, the Ottomans were long gone when the Jews began buying land in earnest in Palestine.

In any case, Turkish (post-Ottoman) land registry data was used to baseline land ownership up to 1917, when the British conquered Palestine.

Actually, the Ottoman Iand records refute your article. We know that foreign absentee Iand owners controlled large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" and that much of the land area was kept as an islamo-waqf.

You need to find some new articles to cut and paste.

The Ottoman records confirm that prior to 1917 more than at least 90% of the land in Palestine was owned by the Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine. This was the baseline used to prepare the Survey and Resolution A/364 which confirm the fact.

In any case, the Ottoman records would have no data post 1917, how could the Ottoman records refute Resolution A/364 of 1947 or the Survey completed in 1946? The definitive statement of the resolution is below:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A/364 of 3 September 1947

(COMMENT)

If you examine A/364, You will discover that the document you are using as evidence, is one of the documents and feeder reports that the Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) used as the "recommendation" that was ultimately adopted as A/RES/181(II) (Sometimes called the Partition Plan).

Three Passages worth considering:

Passage #1:

"We have been permitted to examine the records which bear upon the question and it is clear to us that the words "the establishment in Palestine of the National Home' were the outcome of a compromise between those Ministers who contemplated the ultimate establishment of a Jewish State and those who did not. It is obvious in any case that His Majesty's Government could not commit itself to the establishment of the Jewish State. It could only undertake to facilitate the growth of a Home. It would depend mainly on the zeal and enterprise of the Jews, whether the Home would grow big enough to become a State."​

Passage #2:

"This definition of the National Home has sometimes been taken to preclude the establishment of a Jewish State. But, though the phraseology was clearly intended to conciliate, as far as might be, Arab antagonism to the National Home, there is nothing in it to prohibit the ultimate establishment of a Jewish State, and Mr. Churchill himself has told us in evidence that no such prohibition was intended."​

Passage #3:

"The right of any community to use force as a means of gaining its political ends is not admitted in the British Commonwealth. Since the beginning of 1945 the Jews have implicitly claimed this right and have supported by an organized campaign of lawlessness, murder and sabotage their contention that, whatever other interests might be concerned, nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of a Jewish State and free Jewish immigration into Palestine. It is true that large numbers of Jews do not today attempt to defend the crimes that have been committed in the name of these political aspirations. They recognize the damage caused' to their good name by these methods in the court of world opinion. Nevertheless, the Jewish community of Palestine still publicly refuses its help to the Administration in suppressing terrorism, on the ground that the Administration's policy is opposed to Jewish interests. The converse of this attitude is clear, and its result, however much the Jewish leaders themselves may not wish it, has been to give active encouragement to the dissidents and freer scope to their activities."
​

Without regard to what those of us in the discussion group may think, what we should take into account is what the decision makers at the time thought. Passage #3 has within it, many of the issues that we speak of today. And there were voices with opinoins all around the compass. And I imagine, Israel --- being outspoken as it is, still has commentary and opinions all around the compass. Having said that, I do not think that there are many (not many at all) that wish to live under a regime anywhere resembling that of either HAMAS or the PLO (whichever faction you chose.

Most Respectfully,
R​

 

[montelatici]

Oh monte, it is a fruitless hope that you will actually READ the documents from which you quote and which are the source materials from the documents you quote.

Survey of Palestine, Volume 1, page 257 and 258:

80. A considerable area of land is purchased or acquired by Government. This, of course, becomes private property of the Government, although some, such as roads and irrigation channels is devoted to use by the community.

81. The account given above describes the various divisions of of legal tenure in which public lands are controlled by the State. Land which ... is found to belong to the State is registered ... in trust for the Government of Palestine.

82. The Royal Commission of 1937 found that a really final and reliable statement of the Government domains and waste lands would not be possible until the operations of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance was concluded over the whole country. Some 12, 577 sq kms lie in the deserts of Beersheba. It is possible that there might be private claims to over 2000 sq kms which are cultivated from time to time. The remainder might be considered mewat or empty miri. None of it has come under the operation of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance. Excluding Beersheba, the remaining land of Palestine is 13, 743 sq kms. Some 3000 of this is represented by the tract of mountainous wilderness east of Hebron, Jerusalem and Nablus. When this comes under settlement of title, a large part of it will doubtless be found to be empty State land. In the remaining 10, 743 sq kms ... more than 7000 are cultivated and may be assumed to contain a preponderance of private property, some will no doubt to be found to be part of village land. In addition to the area of 660 sq km settled as State Domain of Palestine, there is an area of 900 sq kms in respect of which there are certain records indicating that this is probably Government property. When the settlement of rights is complete there is no doubt that the figure 1560 sq kms (ie 660 plus 900) will be considerably increased...

Let's do some math, shall we?

12577 less 2000 of possible private ownership because it is sometimes cultivated = 10577 sq kms of State Land
13743 less 10743 = 3000 more sq kms of State Land
10743 less 7000 of cultivation (estimated) = 3000 more sq kms of State Land

Which gives us a total of 16,577 sq kms of Land which is not cultivated and is either dead land (mewat) or empty land (miri) and is most certainly not under any private ownership, let alone private ownership of residents of Palestine. Which is roughly 63% of the total sq kms of "Palestine".

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

The public lands were calculated and they do not represent a large percentage of the land, see below. You keep looking for a way to claim that the Anglo-American Commission and the UN, prior to partitioning Palestine, did not calculate land ownership as accurately as possible. Why do you think that the pre-partition UN resolution would state plainly that the 85% of the land was owned by the Arab population?

 

[Shusha]

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

Well, I don't actually assume it, but its mostly because the primary source document of the Survey says that of the 12577 sq kms only 2000 might have private claims, leaving the other 10577 to be not-private claims but mewat and miri, which, by definition, mean, um, not privately-owned land.

Why do you try to conflate mewat and miri as privately owned by Arab residents of Palestine?

 

[Hollie]

Oh monte, it is a fruitless hope that you will actually READ the documents from which you quote and which are the source materials from the documents you quote.

Survey of Palestine, Volume 1, page 257 and 258:

80. A considerable area of land is purchased or acquired by Government. This, of course, becomes private property of the Government, although some, such as roads and irrigation channels is devoted to use by the community.

81. The account given above describes the various divisions of of legal tenure in which public lands are controlled by the State. Land which ... is found to belong to the State is registered ... in trust for the Government of Palestine.

82. The Royal Commission of 1937 found that a really final and reliable statement of the Government domains and waste lands would not be possible until the operations of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance was concluded over the whole country. Some 12, 577 sq kms lie in the deserts of Beersheba. It is possible that there might be private claims to over 2000 sq kms which are cultivated from time to time. The remainder might be considered mewat or empty miri. None of it has come under the operation of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance. Excluding Beersheba, the remaining land of Palestine is 13, 743 sq kms. Some 3000 of this is represented by the tract of mountainous wilderness east of Hebron, Jerusalem and Nablus. When this comes under settlement of title, a large part of it will doubtless be found to be empty State land. In the remaining 10, 743 sq kms ... more than 7000 are cultivated and may be assumed to contain a preponderance of private property, some will no doubt to be found to be part of village land. In addition to the area of 660 sq km settled as State Domain of Palestine, there is an area of 900 sq kms in respect of which there are certain records indicating that this is probably Government property. When the settlement of rights is complete there is no doubt that the figure 1560 sq kms (ie 660 plus 900) will be considerably increased...

Let's do some math, shall we?

12577 less 2000 of possible private ownership because it is sometimes cultivated = 10577 sq kms of State Land
13743 less 10743 = 3000 more sq kms of State Land
10743 less 7000 of cultivation (estimated) = 3000 more sq kms of State Land

Which gives us a total of 16,577 sq kms of Land which is not cultivated and is either dead land (mewat) or empty land (miri) and is most certainly not under any private ownership, let alone private ownership of residents of Palestine. Which is roughly 63% of the total sq kms of "Palestine".

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

The public lands were calculated and they do not represent a large percentage of the land, see below. You keep looking for a way to claim that the Anglo-American Commission and the UN, prior to partitioning Palestine, did not calculate land ownership as accurately as possible. Why do you think that the pre-partition UN resolution would state plainly that the 85% of the land was owned by the Arab population?

View attachment 102229

Your own document shows that public lands actually are a large percentage of land, just as the Ottoman land records identified.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

 

[montelatici]

Oh monte, it is a fruitless hope that you will actually READ the documents from which you quote and which are the source materials from the documents you quote.

Survey of Palestine, Volume 1, page 257 and 258:

80. A considerable area of land is purchased or acquired by Government. This, of course, becomes private property of the Government, although some, such as roads and irrigation channels is devoted to use by the community.

81. The account given above describes the various divisions of of legal tenure in which public lands are controlled by the State. Land which ... is found to belong to the State is registered ... in trust for the Government of Palestine.

82. The Royal Commission of 1937 found that a really final and reliable statement of the Government domains and waste lands would not be possible until the operations of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance was concluded over the whole country. Some 12, 577 sq kms lie in the deserts of Beersheba. It is possible that there might be private claims to over 2000 sq kms which are cultivated from time to time. The remainder might be considered mewat or empty miri. None of it has come under the operation of the Land (Settlement of Title) Ordinance. Excluding Beersheba, the remaining land of Palestine is 13, 743 sq kms. Some 3000 of this is represented by the tract of mountainous wilderness east of Hebron, Jerusalem and Nablus. When this comes under settlement of title, a large part of it will doubtless be found to be empty State land. In the remaining 10, 743 sq kms ... more than 7000 are cultivated and may be assumed to contain a preponderance of private property, some will no doubt to be found to be part of village land. In addition to the area of 660 sq km settled as State Domain of Palestine, there is an area of 900 sq kms in respect of which there are certain records indicating that this is probably Government property. When the settlement of rights is complete there is no doubt that the figure 1560 sq kms (ie 660 plus 900) will be considerably increased...

Let's do some math, shall we?

12577 less 2000 of possible private ownership because it is sometimes cultivated = 10577 sq kms of State Land
13743 less 10743 = 3000 more sq kms of State Land
10743 less 7000 of cultivation (estimated) = 3000 more sq kms of State Land

Which gives us a total of 16,577 sq kms of Land which is not cultivated and is either dead land (mewat) or empty land (miri) and is most certainly not under any private ownership, let alone private ownership of residents of Palestine. Which is roughly 63% of the total sq kms of "Palestine".

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

The public lands were calculated and they do not represent a large percentage of the land, see below. You keep looking for a way to claim that the Anglo-American Commission and the UN, prior to partitioning Palestine, did not calculate land ownership as accurately as possible. Why do you think that the pre-partition UN resolution would state plainly that the 85% of the land was owned by the Arab population?

View attachment 102229

Your own document shows that public lands actually are a large percentage of land, just as the Ottoman land records identified.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

The public land breakdown shows a little less than 1,000 dunams of public land, the total land in table 1. was over 26,000. Your math is a little lacking.

 

[montelatici]

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

Well, I don't actually assume it, but its mostly because the primary source document of the Survey says that of the 12577 sq kms only 2000 might have private claims, leaving the other 10577 to be not-private claims but mewat and miri, which, by definition, mean, um, not privately-owned land.

Why do you try to conflate mewat and miri as privately owned by Arab residents of Palestine?

The breakdown shows less than 1,000 dunams of public land out of the 26,000 total from table 1. I still don't understand why you are trying to deny the facts. What incentive would there have been for the UN to say that the Arab population still owned 85% of the land pre-partition? Amazing how the cognizant dissonance affects you. LOL

 

[Hollie]

Why do you assume that mewat or miri was "certainly not" under any private control?

Well, I don't actually assume it, but its mostly because the primary source document of the Survey says that of the 12577 sq kms only 2000 might have private claims, leaving the other 10577 to be not-private claims but mewat and miri, which, by definition, mean, um, not privately-owned land.

Why do you try to conflate mewat and miri as privately owned by Arab residents of Palestine?

The breakdown shows less than 1,000 dunams of public land out of the 26,000 total from table 1. I still don't understand why you are trying to deny the facts. What incentive would there have been for the UN to say that the Arab population still owned 85% of the land pre-partition? Amazing how the cognizant dissonance affects you. LOL

You seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance as opposed to the cognizant type. LOL.

Read the chart you fumbled. You fumbled the math.

At any rate, we know from the actual Ottoman records that your article is in error.

 

[montelatici]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

 

[montelatici]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

~26,000,000 versus 900,000

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Hollie]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

Stomping your feet now?

That's so cute. However, there is still the cognizant dissonance issue of the Ottoman land records that refute your article.

 

[Hollie]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

~26,000,000 versus 900,000

View attachment 102246View attachment 102245

View attachment 102245

What's interesting is the Arabs and other non-Jews column. That's in concert with the what the Ottoman land records show, that large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" was owned by foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

Of course, you could always threaten to cut and the same article in a different order.

 

[Hollie]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

~26,000,000 versus 900,000

View attachment 102246View attachment 102245

View attachment 102245

You cut and pasted table 2 twice. "Cognizant dissonance"?

 

[montelatici]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

~26,000,000 versus 900,000

View attachment 102246View attachment 102245

View attachment 102245

What's interesting is the Arabs and other non-Jews column. That's in concert with the what the Ottoman land records show, that large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" was owned by foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

Of course, you could always threaten to cut and the same article in a different order.

You have no idea what the "Ottoman Records" show. You are just making things up. You just can't accept the truth.

 

[montelatici]

Listen, this technique of yours to use big lies doesn't work. 1,000 is a lot less than 26,000. That's just a fact. Do you think your silly internet forum tricks fool anyone? I could post the two tables together. One more stupid response and I will.

~26,000,000 versus 900,000

View attachment 102246View attachment 102245

View attachment 102245

What's interesting is the Arabs and other non-Jews column. That's in concert with the what the Ottoman land records show, that large portions of your invented "country of Pal'istan" was owned by foreigners from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

Of course, you could always threaten to cut and the same article in a different order.

What you don't seem to understand, is that you cut and paste articles. I cut and paste text from official, source documents. Like the text below, from para. 164 of the pre-partition UN resolution A/364.


"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. "

A/364 of 3 September 1947

Terrible when the facts don't match the myth you have believed for so long.