it begins....pastor says romney is not a christian

[BDBoop]

No mainline Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christians.

Mormons are considered a cult and have nothing to do with Christianity.

Odd, I kinda feel that way about Baptists.

I feel that way about fringe/fundies of every stripe.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Check online. Many, many Christian leaders and political leaders consider Mormons as Christians. What the far right heretical fundamentalists and evangelicals think about this is irrelevant.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Jefferson did not want the church to dictate the government, either. Jefferson had no desire that religious value or secular ethics be left out of government.

He did not want to keep God out of Government as most of the founders believed. If they did they never would have established a congressional chaplian.

Congressional chaplain is a ceremonial role not a legislative one

Jefferson feared undue religious influence on government....rightfully so

Nevertheless, it is a religous position held within the government. That was held by christians up until the mid 20th century.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And who are you to say who is and isn't authorized to interpret the bible?

Of course, I never wrote that and of course, you just made it up out of thin air. But, that's ok, it is expected on a anonymous venue such as this.

What I said, was that the Holy Bible needs no interpretation.

Do you have a conection to God we don't know about?

Possibly. A Christian, is connected to God through the Holy Spirit. However, to the non-Christian, such a connection is anathema to common sense and laughable at the core.

Of course, for the born again Christian, no explanation is necessary and for the un-saved, no explanation could possible be enough.

The broader point here, is a stance on faith. God is interested in a relationship with those who see His Son (Jesus Christ) as the only path of salvation and re-connection with God the Father. One can have that relationship through genuine repentance of sin to God the Father and by asking God the Son, to take up residence in the form of God the Spirit, in ones life and heart. Beyond that, there is no hope for the un-saved.

However, for the saved, for the redeemed, for those made righteous - not of their own works or deeds, but through the power of God's trans-formative Spirit, ah yes, for those sincerely blessed individuals, they can look forward to spending an eternity with He who gave them life!

Its a sweet deal, when you stop to think about it! Seriously, there is no better deal in the entire universe, than to simply lay down ego, pride and prejudice, and accept the free gift that God has provided all of humanity: His Son, Jesus Christ.

It is just that simple. You don't get to spend an eternity with God, because of anything that you do - but because of everything that God has already done for you!

It does not get any sweeter than that!

Why don't you keep my question in context to the post I made it to?

The Holy Bible has several witnesses to the definition:

- Luke 19:9
- 1 Thessalonians 5:9
- 2 Timothy 2:10
- 2 Timothy 3:15

Most widely known by:

- John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have ever lasting life."

Ah, you are one of the modern Pharisees.

Nope, the Bible is not literal, and you are not its interpreter.

Got it?

And who are you to say who is and isn't authorized to interpret the bible?
Do you have a conection to God we don't know about?

I was defending your stance.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cessna gets upset when dealt with as s/he deals with others. We are all entitled to our opinions, bigrebnc.

 

[JoeB131]

But if the Bible was divinely inspired, and represents the word of God, are you saying God didn't know about insecticides either??

Nope, not saying anything of the kind.

I'm saying the Bible was good faith efforts by Bronze Age people to explain the events around them. Nothing more, nothing less. Things they didn't understand were God's will. Usually followed by finding someone to stone to appease him.

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, was made up by Joseph Smith as a bunch of bad Bible Fan-Fic designed to charm men out of their money and women out of their bloomers.

And it should be obvious to everyone today that is EXACTLY what it was. And that anyone who holds it to be anything other than that, is not fit to be president or even be let out of the house without adult supervision.

Me, I would love to see Mankind evolve above religion. I would love us to be able deal with our fears of death and put all this nonsense behind us.

But really, the best we can do is at least point out the most blatant frauds and call them for what they are. Frauds.

Mormonism is a Fraud.

No more so than any other religion

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

 

[JoeB131]

Check online. Many, many Christian leaders and political leaders consider Mormons as Christians. What the far right heretical fundamentalists and evangelicals think about this is irrelevant.

Except they make up 44% of the Republican base.

Is Romney's Mormon faith affecting votes? - CBS News

In a CBS News poll out this week, 42 percent of white evangelicals said most people they know would not vote for a Mormon. That's bad for Romney, especially considering evangelicals made up 44 percent of Republican primary voters in 2008.

let's go back to the Gallup poll that shows that 19% of independents and 27% of Democrats won't vote for a Latter Day Liar, either. It ain't just the far religious right you guys are going to have a problem with if you foist this guy on the party.

 

[JoeB131]

So the Bible was made up by 'Bronze Age' people, and Mormonism was made up by 19th century people,

and you then conclude that it's Mormonism that must be the 'fraud'? lol

No, I can conclude that because I know that Joseph Smith was a con artist, who had been convicted in several states for various schemes involving gold-divining, counterfeiting, election intimidation, and attempts to raise his own army. Not to mention he was having sex with teenage girls and the wives of his followers.

Now, I don't know that about the folks who wrote the bible. We know that certain books are attributed to certain people having wrote them, and tons of scholars have studied these books as both literature and history.

What we can be reasonably sure about is that none of them went out intending to defraud people. More than likely, they were putting to paper oral traditions that were centuries old, and today, we are discovering other documents that clearly influenced them. (For instance, the Gospel of Thomas, an apocrophal book, confirms many parts of the "Canonical" gospels). We have accounts of these books going back almost to the point when they were written.

Events in the bible are confirmed by other accounts. For instance, the History of Josephus and the Acts of the Apostles tell many of the same stories about some of the same characters.

For the Book of Mormon, studies have proven the entire thing was the work of one author. It was not written hundreds of years before, but a 19th century guy plagarizing 17th century prose from the King James Bible. There have been no other accounts of the events in the Book of Mormon, no archeological trace of the Nephites or Lamanites, and genetic tests have proven that the Native Americans and Hebrews aren't related in any way. (Duh, you think.)

I don't doubt the writers of the bible were wrong about a lot of stuff, and a lot of their moral lessons are flawed and should be taken with a grain of salt. But there wasn't a point where someone sat down and said, "How can I pull a fast one?"

Joseph Smith was trying top pull a fast one up until the day they shot him.

 

[Dot Com]

The Repub primary, internal civil war begins

 

[Rocko]

The left is creating this big brewhaha to try to make conservatives look bad..The fact is hardly any conservative gives a shit, it's only the libs that are talking about it.

 

[rightwinger]

The left is creating this big brewhaha to try to make conservatives look bad..The fact is hardly any conservative gives a shit, it's only the libs that are talking about it.

That's odd

It is the conservatives who are jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon looking for someone to support

 

[Rocko]

The left is creating this big brewhaha to try to make conservatives look bad..The fact is hardly any conservative gives a shit, it's only the libs that are talking about it.

That's odd

It is the conservatives who are jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon looking for someone to support

Whats your point?

 

[rightwinger]

Nope, not saying anything of the kind.

I'm saying the Bible was good faith efforts by Bronze Age people to explain the events around them. Nothing more, nothing less. Things they didn't understand were God's will. Usually followed by finding someone to stone to appease him.

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, was made up by Joseph Smith as a bunch of bad Bible Fan-Fic designed to charm men out of their money and women out of their bloomers.

And it should be obvious to everyone today that is EXACTLY what it was. And that anyone who holds it to be anything other than that, is not fit to be president or even be let out of the house without adult supervision.

Me, I would love to see Mankind evolve above religion. I would love us to be able deal with our fears of death and put all this nonsense behind us.

But really, the best we can do is at least point out the most blatant frauds and call them for what they are. Frauds.

Mormonism is a Fraud.

No more so than any other religion

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

Bull crap

You just believe more of what was written 3000 years ago over what was written 170 years ago

It is easier to validate what was written 170 years ago

You just have no idea what the scam was 3000 years ago

 

[Dot Com]

No more so than any other religion

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

Bull crap

You just believe more of what was written 3000 years ago over what was written 170 years ago

It is easier to validate what was written 170 years ago

You just have no idea what the scam was 3000 years ago

Exactly. Thats why people are scared not to believe in it because it can't be validated. Its also very convenient for the believers because they will say "you weren't there so you can't disprove it"

 

[Jackson]

The most interesting thing about this is that his religion is irrelevant. The TH should be talking about candidates stance on issues.

 

[MarcATL]

Those pretending to be more Christian than anyone else made the defintion. Such people don't count.

Eventually, it should have been obvious to everyone that this issue with Romney, would emerge as political cannon fodder.

Non-Christians, want a technical "definition." God wants to speak to through His Spirit, to the soul of humanity. God accomplishes this [specifically] through His written Word, which He preserved across thousands of years and many changes in the paradigm by which humanity decides to live out its life.

Many human beings have in the past, attempted to corrupt the scriptures for their own gain. From old world Monarchs to new world Presidents, many have tread that dangerous path and have reaped destruction as a direct result. For example: During the expansion of the Roman Empire, wars were actually fought in an attempt to do the impossible - "convert people to Christianity." Man is not capable of converting anyone. Man can lead one to Christ, but only God's Spirit can convert the human soul, and only through God's grace is this miracle ever accomplished. So, clearly, one cannot be forced into becoming a Christian.

Likewise, American Presidents have invoked "faith" to allude to a belief that they were indeed a Christian. Only later, did the country witness the hypocrisy of the claim, when hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children lost their lives in a needless war predicated on stealing oil production and profiteering from war.

Indeed, history is replete with prime examples of people falsely using the name of Jesus Christ, as an excuse for their eventual behavior which turns out to be Anti-Christlike in the final analysis.

SPOT ON!!!

Biblical literalism is simply a heresy, the same as Mormonism. Simply means that such folks are in error. And these modern Pharisees demonstrate clearly why the Founders made sure that state and religion are separated by the constitutional wall of separation.

Thanks for playing.

OK...what's the point you're trying to make here? You're jumping all over the place. Clarifiy.

No more so than any other religion

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

Bull crap

You just believe more of what was written 3000 years ago over what was written 170 years ago

It is easier to validate what was written 170 years ago

You just have no idea what the scam was 3000 years ago

Your athiest anti-Christian hate is dripping from your words to the point that the basement is flooded. What gives? It's simple...the Joseph Smith BS is a PROVEN hoax. The Bible has been PROVEN by secular scientist to be largely true, and by largely I mean, by all the things that they COULD prove, HAS been proven. Relax.

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

Bull crap

You just believe more of what was written 3000 years ago over what was written 170 years ago

It is easier to validate what was written 170 years ago

You just have no idea what the scam was 3000 years ago

Exactly. Thats why people are scared not to believe in it because it can't be validated. Its also very convenient for the believers because they will say "you weren't there so you can't disprove it"

Read my previous post. Don't let your athiest/anti-Christian hate and rage get the best of you. Take a breather my brother.

 

[Jackson]

While everyone is discussing whether Romney is a Christian or a member of a cult, may I remind you all that the person behind this incredible blunder is Rick Perry.

What does this say about a candidate for president when he could be president and he has to select cabinet members and a slew of advisors in his administration. He could not select a pastor to introduce him at an event without getting into trouble!

Didn't he go over his remarks ahead of time? Did he tell the good pastor that Romneys religion was off limits and no judgement would be made? Or was that alright with Perry?
Was this supposed to be an undercut type of mudslinging attempt on the part of Perry?

Perry had new ad come out today that was very costly which was very effective comparing Obama's Health Care Reform to Romney's Health Care Reform. It wasn't headline news because the "cult" comment made the headline time instead.

Another blunder for Perry. Too many fatal flaws. He's done.

 

[JoeB131]

No more so than any other religion

No, a lot more, actually

Most other religions were started by people who sincerely believed in what they were writing down. Any book of the Bible was based on centuries of oral traditions someone finally wrote down and put to paper. People really thought God brought about plagues because they didn't know what a germ was. In short, there was no attempt to deceive, lie, swindle. People just wrote down what they thought and tried to explain the world within the limits of their culture and understanding.

Mormonism, on the other hand, was clearly a case of a guy (Joseph Smith) who was writing down lies, knew they were lies when he wrote them down, and his goal was scam people.

Bull crap

You just believe more of what was written 3000 years ago over what was written 170 years ago

It is easier to validate what was written 170 years ago

You just have no idea what the scam was 3000 years ago

Are you just dense?

I pretty much stated I don't believe either, personally.

The thing is, 3000 years ago, everyone already knew those stories. They were oral traditions that had been repeated for centuries. Some were being written down as they happened. Others were summaries from other books. (For instance, the books of Kings and Chronicles repeat many of the same stories, and mention other now lost books.) So if someone tried to rewrite those stories to, let's say, get into the panties of your teenage daughter, everyone would kind of know that's what you were up to.

So while the "magical" parts are a bit dubious based on superstition, the history parts are probably accurate. It wasn't a scam, it was people making a good faith effort to interpret their world at their level of understanding.

Smith just made up Bullshit. He knew it was bullshit when he was making it up. We have subsequently confirmed through science it is all bullshit.

 

[JoeB131]

While everyone is discussing whether Romney is a Christian or a member of a cult, may I remind you all that the person behind this incredible blunder is Rick Perry.

What does this say about a candidate for president when he could be president and he has to select cabinet members and a slew of advisors in his administration. He could not select a pastor to introduce him at an event without getting into trouble!

Didn't he go over his remarks ahead of time? Did he tell the good pastor that Romneys religion was off limits and no judgement would be made? Or was that alright with Perry?
Was this supposed to be an undercut type of mudslinging attempt on the part of Perry?

Perry had new ad come out today that was very costly which was very effective comparing Obama's Health Care Reform to Romney's Health Care Reform. It wasn't headline news because the "cult" comment made the headline time instead.

Another blunder for Perry. Too many fatal flaws. He's done.

And if he tried to censor this pastor, you'd have accused him of being a would-be dictator.

Fact is, 44% of Evangelicals consider Mormonism to be a cult.

Mormonism is a cult. Deal with it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The left is creating this big brewhaha to try to make conservatives look bad..The fact is hardly any conservative gives a shit, it's only the libs that are talking about it.

Barry44sucks does not get it if anyone buys his nonsense. The GOP is in an uproar as the party moderates and responsible conservatives fight against the far right nominees. Each election cycle will see the decreasing power of the social values right, as these denominations grow fewer in % of the population and the GOP base. As for now, they still have some incredible pop, but is weaker than in 2008. When Romney wins in NH and FL, the weakness of the Social Values crowd will be seen for what it is.