Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[Couchpotato]

What are those standards then? People do not necessarily believe all there in The Bible simply because they call themselves Christian. Belief is very subjective, especially genuine belief.

It's unclear to what extent those 'standard' views on heaven and hell hold for people. I think this thread is evidence of some of that. The super vocal 'hellfire' Christians that use damnation to 'convert' people stand out the most, but not everyone who follows Jesus sees choosing the 'wrong faith' or even lacking faith as something people are condemned for.

You can’t be a Christian and not believe the core tenet of the religion. You can quibble on the edges but belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and your personal savior is essentially what makes you a Christian. If you dont believe that you're not getting into heaven. You cant debate that and be a Christian.

I'm sharing what I have observed in my life so far, which is that people bend these 'standards' to their own biases and intuition, especially in the modern day. I certainly do,

The criteria to enter heaven doenst change based on your "lived experience" or your standards.

and I still consider myself a Christian, since I think Jesus is the important factor, not what 'standards' dictate entrance into heaven or hell.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but you arent a Christian, and you arent getting into heaven based on those beliefs. You dont get to dictate to God what the standards are for entrance into Heaven. It's His house, so His rules.

 

[Insaneworld]

You can’t be a Christian and not believe the core tenet of the religion. You can quibble on the edges but belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and your personal savior is essentially what makes you a Christian. If you dont believe that you're not getting into heaven. You cant debate that and be a Christian.

Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God, and humanity's savior. But not necessarily the only divine messenger that has been sent througout history, in my view. You are adding the EXTRA statement about heaven here, to maintain your position. That does not follow from believing Jesus Christ is Son of God and your savior, that is an extra piece.

That Jesus Christ is Son of God and savior is a core belief, that is wholly different than saying that those who do not believe that will burn in hell, or that it is the only ticket to heaven.

The criteria to enter heaven doenst change based on your "lived experience" or your standards.

These 'criteria' are just personal beliefs. And these are shaped by lived experiences. What the standard actually IS, if it exists, I do not know for certain. See the difference? I am commenting on people's beliefs, not the standards as they are to God.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but you arent a Christian, and you arent getting into heaven based on those beliefs. You dont get to dictate to God what the standards are for entrance into Heaven. It's His house, so His rules.

You are hardly an authority here. You do not bring bad news, you're not close to the first person to bring such views to me, and you only speak for yourself. It's quite astounding too, that you speak of His rules as if you knew them, while telling me people do not dictate His rules.

You lack self awareness.

 

[Blues Man]

If the shoe fits....

What you cannot seem to understand is that your understanding of scripture is practically non-existent. Making up excuses for why you not only don't need to take scripture seriously, you give yourself permission to misrepresent and scorn what is holy to those who do understand. Further, when someone patiently explains the truth in our beliefs, what is received in return is a slap in the face. Many of us can discuss Buddhism and other Eastern religions respectfully with you, because that is your holy ground. All you do on our holy ground is desecrate it. I can only take so much of that, so I am going to take a break from you for awhile. Last word is yours.

Yes we all know you are so much smarter than us heathens.

Maybe you should rewrite the bible so it doesn't have as many contradictions, then we poor idiots could understand it better.

Funny how the number one propaganda publication of the RCC is just riddled with such nonsense.

And you explain your interpretation of your beliefs. Other can and do interpret the bible differently.

You can't find fault in the bible because you are biased that your god is perfect and cannot make mistakes.

I don't suffer that bias and see contradiction, cruelty and capriciousness in the god of the bible.

 

[Couchpotato]

What are those standards then? People do not necessarily believe all there in The Bible simply because they call themselves Christian. Belief is very subjective, especially genuine belief.

It's unclear to what extent those 'standard' views on heaven and hell hold for people. I think this thread is evidence of some of that. The super vocal 'hellfire' Christians that use damnation to 'convert' people stand out the most, but not everyone who follows Jesus sees choosing the 'wrong faith' or even lacking faith as something people are condemned for.

If you are a Christian that is the belief though. It's really not a negotiable thing. It is literally THE core belief of the religion. If you dont believe that the only way to get to heaven is though Christ then you are by definition NOT a Christian. And according to the Bible you are will be condemned for that. God has set a very easy condition for your salvation, and for you to be in his presence after your death. If you do not wish to be in his presence he will not force that upon you, and thus after death you would be cast into hell to spend eternity separated from Him.

I'm sharing what I have observed in my life so far, which is that people bend these 'standards' to their own biases and intuition, especially in the modern day. I certainly do, and I still consider myself a Christian, since I think Jesus is the important factor, not what 'standards' dictate entrance into heaven or hell.

What you have observed is irrelevant. Not sure if you're aware of this but unless you're Godyou dont get to set the parameters by which you or anyone else gets to enter Heaven. You can consider yourself whatever you want. That and 2.50 will get you a shitty cup of coffee at 7/11.

 

[ding]

That’s what Christians believe is the path to heaven?

I have no idea what other believe about that. Nor do I care. I live in the present and trust God to do the rest. Why on earth would you care one way or the other?

 

[ding]

Yeah like the church is failing

If that's how you want to see it, good for you. My beliefs don't hinge on what other do or don't do. But from everything I have seen, it's cyclical. At a society level and a personal level. Progress is seldom a straight line.

And none of that has anything to do with you being a militant atheist. That is only determined by your actions.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

When did I say anyone could perform a miracle?

When did I say you could? I asked you first. Then I asked you to find someone else.

This is a series of questions that will leave you no option but to claim miracles are real because you say they are.

Then maybe you will have a moment of clarity.

 

[ding]

I wouldn't say that! It depends on what the militancy is all about. Some might burn down churches while others don't remain quiet when hearing Christian lies. Me, I do no harm but I don't remain quiet when I hear a Christian who is smart enough to know that he's lying to himself.

To keep one of them interested in talking is not a dead end. Even Meriweather isn't a dead end!

What Christians do or what militant atheists do, is entirely independent of each other. No one can make you do anything. You do the things you want because you choose to do them. Same goes for Christians.

But atheism, by definition, is an intellectual dead end because it doesn't require any intellect whatsoever to reject or to criticize. Intellect is only required to describe what something is and why. And no matter how clever you think you might be, criticizing what you don't believe will never be describing what something is.

 

[ding]

I doubt many Catholics laughed when their church threw out creation myths. Most will have tried to ignore it or maybe try to accept some excuse saying they can have it both ways.

I think you concern yourself way too much with what people of faith do or don't do. Maybe a little self reflection is in order.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I doubt many Catholics laughed when their church threw out creation myths. Most will have tried to ignore it or maybe try to accept some excuse saying they can have it both ways.

But those people are lost. It's their kids -- who will grow up in a catholic church that acknowledges evolution -- who will really show the change.

 

[Donald H]

What Christians do or what militant atheists do, is entirely independent of each other. No one can make you do anything. You do the things you want because you choose to do them. Same goes for Christians.

I'm goog with that my friend!

But atheism, by definition, is an intellectual dead end because it doesn't require any intellect whatsoever to reject or to criticize.

You mean for a Christian to criticize an atheist? Or do you mean it doesn't take any intellect to criticize an atheist?

Intellect is only required to describe what something is and why.

A little more than just that, but o.k.

And no matter how clever you think you might be, criticizing what you don't believe will never be describing what something is.

I have something to offer Christians who I criticize my friend!

 

[Donald H]

I think you concern yourself way too much with what people of faith do or don't do. Maybe a little self reflection is in order.

It can only be equally so for both of us, even allowing that you have a lot more to say. You're free to drop out but don't expect that of me.

I'll miss you because I consider you to be one of the two quite intelligent Christians here.

And Meriweather has already chosen to drop out, so to speak.

 

[ding]

I'm goog with that my friend!

I'm glad you are "goog" with that. That's the beauty of living in a logical universe. We are all free to make our choices but we are not free from experiencing the consequences of our choices.

 

[ding]

You mean for a Christian to criticize an atheist? Or do you mean it doesn't take any intellect to criticize an atheist?

Can you provide an example? Because I'm not sure what that has to do with evaluating the origin questions. Which atheism does not attempt to do. Because that's why atheism is an intellectual dead end. Atheism doesn't have beliefs. Atheism has arguments against beliefs. In the cosmic world of reality, atheists can only tear down, they can't create. I feel so sorry for you guys. I can't imagine what it would be like to go through life only being able to destroy and never being able to create.

 

[Donald H]

I'm glad you are "goog" with that. That's the beauty of living in a logical universe. We are all free to make our choices but we are not free from experiencing the consequences of our choices.

Yes..

 

[ding]

A little more than just that, but o.k.

Actually not. It takes no great imagination or intellect to tear something down. It takes a considerable more amount of imagination and intellect to build something.

 

[ding]

I have something to offer Christians who I criticize my friend!

No, You don't. You are only here for your own amusement and to confirm your biases. You offer nothing of value whatsoever. You don't understand how good comes from bad. You only understand bad and you naively believe there should be no bad. Good luck with that. You'll end up eating your young because of it.

 

[Donald H]

Can you provide an example? Because I'm not sure what that has to do with evaluating the origin questions. Which atheism does not attempt to do. Because that's why atheism is an intellectual dead end. Atheism doesn't have beliefs. Atheism has arguments against beliefs. In the cosmic world of reality, atheists can only tear down, they can't create. I feel so sorry for you guys. I can't imagine what it would be like to go through life only being able to destroy and never being able to create.

Atheists aren't all the same but they all have something in common on not believing religion's superstitions. 'I' believe in the natural world and learning is never-ending.

Americans can't criticize any others on destroying. We'll leave it at that!

 

[ding]

It can only be equally so for both of us, even allowing that you have a lot more to say. You're free to drop out but don't expect that of me.

I'll miss you because I consider you to be one of the two quite intelligent Christians here.

And Meriweather has already chosen to drop out, so to speak.

Again... I think you concern yourself way too much with what people of faith do or don't do. Maybe a little self reflection is in order.

 

[Donald H]

Actually not. It takes no great imagination or intellect to tear something down. It takes a considerable more amount of imagination and intellect to build something.

Yes, I agree.