I've heard it on here so much enough is enough

[daveman]

The founders were not close to liberalism.

They opposed government controlling every aspect of your daily life.
They opposed career politicians.
They opposed lobbyists.
They believed in states rights.
They believed in limited government.
They believed in people doing for themselves.
They believed in the US having a military
They believed in property ownership

You can't support any of those statements

You're kidding, right?

 

[daveman]

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

No they don't. That's just another ridiculous lie.

No, it's the truth.

 

[mudwhistle]

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

No they don't. That's just another ridiculous lie.

No, it's the truth.

If you support Obama you support a totalitarian regime.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The founders were not close to liberalism.

They opposed government controlling every aspect of your daily life.
They opposed career politicians.
They opposed lobbyists.
They believed in states rights.
They believed in limited government.
They believed in people doing for themselves.
They believed in the US having a military
They believed in property ownership

You can't support any of those statements

You're kidding, right?

Yeah, he's kidding. Since liberals think they are 'progressives' perhaps RW here would benefit from an education in our political history:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/326188-kennedy-was-a-liberal-3.html#post8205776

 

[rightwinger]

It's not proof at all.

But it's hilarious that you think it is.

Any professional would take it at least as an indication there were liberal initiatives involved in the American Revolution (the word liberal is very fluid, it's not a static unbending set of policy stances like I think the OP perceives it to be).

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

which liberal policy would the founders of America support?

Let's go with this...."Against authoritarian rule"

Back in those days, that was very liberal, lol.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

 

[rightwinger]

The founders were not close to liberalism.

They opposed government controlling every aspect of your daily life.
They opposed career politicians.
They opposed lobbyists.
They believed in states rights.
They believed in limited government.
They believed in people doing for themselves.
They believed in the US having a military
They believed in property ownership

You can't support any of those statements

Can very easily proven as those are in the constitution and the paper written by the men.

Where are career politicians, lobbyists, limited government, a statement that people must do things for themselves, a standing Army or property ownership mentioned in the Constitution?

 

[Newby]

You can't support any of those statements

Can very easily proven as those are in the constitution and the paper written by the men.

Where are career politicians, lobbyists, limited government, a statement that people must do things for themselves, a standing Army or property ownership mentioned in the Constitution?

Do you believe the Constitution was written in a vacuum?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Any professional would take it at least as an indication there were liberal initiatives involved in the American Revolution (the word liberal is very fluid, it's not a static unbending set of policy stances like I think the OP perceives it to be).

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

Let's go with this...."Against authoritarian rule"

Back in those days, that was very liberal, lol.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

Eighteenth century liberals would see you far leftist "21st century" liberals as the lunatic fringe. If they saw who was president, they would no doubt compare him to the King of England. A tyrant is a tyrant, no matter what century you come from.

Your sarcasm is no substitute for an actual argument.

 

[mudwhistle]

Any professional would take it at least as an indication there were liberal initiatives involved in the American Revolution (the word liberal is very fluid, it's not a static unbending set of policy stances like I think the OP perceives it to be).

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

Let's go with this...."Against authoritarian rule"

Back in those days, that was very liberal, lol.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

18th Century liberals wanted freedom.

21st Century liberals want to be taken care of.

 

[daveman]

Any professional would take it at least as an indication there were liberal initiatives involved in the American Revolution (the word liberal is very fluid, it's not a static unbending set of policy stances like I think the OP perceives it to be).

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

Let's go with this...."Against authoritarian rule"

Back in those days, that was very liberal, lol.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

You'll have to ask the idiots who are claiming the limited-government, minimal-taxation, maximum-personal-liberty Founders are just like today's oppressive-government, maximum-taxation, limited-personal-liberty liberals.

 

[rightwinger]

Can very easily proven as those are in the constitution and the paper written by the men.

Where are career politicians, lobbyists, limited government, a statement that people must do things for themselves, a standing Army or property ownership mentioned in the Constitution?

Do you believe the Constitution was written in a vacuum?

No, it was written in Philadelphia

 

[rightwinger]

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

Eighteenth century liberals would see you far leftist "21st century" liberals as the lunatic fringe. If they saw who was president, they would no doubt compare him to the King of England. A tyrant is a tyrant, no matter what century you come from.

Your sarcasm is no substitute for an actual argument.

18th century liberals looked at things through 18th century eyes. They could not come close to envisioning what issues and needs a 21st century society would require. I envision that anyone in the 18th century would look at people in the 21st century as lunatics....imagine having a black man as your president?

 

[rightwinger]

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

You'll have to ask the idiots who are claiming the limited-government, minimal-taxation, maximum-personal-liberty Founders are just like today's oppressive-government, maximum-taxation, limited-personal-liberty liberals.

18th century liberals had 18th century needs. We were a third world country that was dispersed over thousands of miles. We were deeply in debt and incapable of affording even the most basic government services.
Equating an 18th century agrarian society to a 21st century economic superpower is idiotic

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

You'll have to ask the idiots who are claiming the limited-government, minimal-taxation, maximum-personal-liberty Founders are just like today's oppressive-government, maximum-taxation, limited-personal-liberty liberals.

18th century liberals had 18th century needs. We were a third world country that was dispersed over thousands of miles. We were deeply in debt and incapable of affording even the most basic government services.
Equating an 18th century agrarian society to a 21st century economic superpower is idiotic

Not relevant to anything.

The need for a federal government that limits itself to protecting America from foreign aggressors and administering a justice system that protects the citizenry from aggressors from within, rather than become an aggressor itself, is not subject to anything as trivial as the calendar.

 

[rightwinger]

Yes, the Founders were Classical Liberals.

Modern liberals are NOT Classical Liberals.

But liberals today support authoritarian rule -- whether here or elsewhere in the world.

Try again.

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

18th Century liberals wanted freedom.

21st Century liberals want to be taken care of.

18th century liberals did not have the right to vote for their representatives. They were obligated to laws in which they had no input to. They fought for freedom
21st century liberals see a country where millions of Americans lack access to affordable healthcare, where gays are restricted from equal access to our laws

Different eras different fights

Todays conservatives compare themselves to our founders in a desire for "freedom". Where our founders fought for freedom to elect your government, todays conservatives fight to be free from constitutionally enacted laws they do not agree with

Not the same thing

 

[Vox]

Our founders were 18th century Liberals
Today, we have 21st century Liberals

Why would you expect them to be the same thing? Do todays Conservatives still support the King of England? They did in the 18th century

18th Century liberals wanted freedom.

21st Century liberals want to be taken care of.

18th century liberals did not have the right to vote for their representatives. They were obligated to laws in which they had no input to. They fought for freedom
21st century liberals see a country where millions of Americans lack access to affordable healthcare, where gays are restricted from equal access to our laws

Different eras different fights

Todays conservatives compare themselves to our founders in a desire for "freedom". Where our founders fought for freedom to elect your government, todays conservatives fight to be free from constitutionally enacted laws they do not agree with

Not the same thing

Not the same thing because the ones who are lying aout their "care" about Americans without health insurance and "gay rights" are NOT liberals. They are leftard progressives and to copare them to 18 century's liberals is a perfect example of the leftards lies.

 

[g5000]

Eighteenth century liberals would see you far leftist "21st century" liberals as the lunatic fringe. If they saw who was president, they would no doubt compare him to the King of England. A tyrant is a tyrant, no matter what century you come from.

What would they make of the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security? What would they make of the Patriot Act? What would they make of the suspension of habaes corpus for detainees, including US citizens? What would they make of waterboarding? What would they make of Medicare D? What would they make of the War in Iraq? What would they make of warrantless wiretaps? What would they make of domestic spying on tens of millions of Americans? What would they make of National Security Letters and the thousands of abuses of those NSLs?

What would they make of the President who was on watch when all this went down? What would they make of the flag pin wearing yahoos cheering him on as he did all this?

Obama may be tyrant, but he was handed the baton. It amuses me all the yahoos didn't discover the Constitution or our Founders until January 20, 2009.

 

[g5000]

The founders were not close to liberalism.

They opposed government controlling every aspect of your daily life.
They opposed career politicians.
They opposed lobbyists.
They believed in states rights.
They believed in limited government.
They believed in people doing for themselves.
They believed in the US having a military
They believed in property ownership

Please see Post 249.

 

[rightwinger]

18th Century liberals wanted freedom.

21st Century liberals want to be taken care of.

18th century liberals did not have the right to vote for their representatives. They were obligated to laws in which they had no input to. They fought for freedom
21st century liberals see a country where millions of Americans lack access to affordable healthcare, where gays are restricted from equal access to our laws

Different eras different fights

Todays conservatives compare themselves to our founders in a desire for "freedom". Where our founders fought for freedom to elect your government, todays conservatives fight to be free from constitutionally enacted laws they do not agree with

Not the same thing

Not the same thing because the ones who are lying aout their "care" about Americans without health insurance and "gay rights" are NOT liberals. They are leftard progressives and to copare them to 18 century's liberals is a perfect example of the leftards lies.

Liberal is a political philosphy. A liberal looks at the issues and challenges of his era and uses a liberal philosophy to address them. Liberals evolve over time as old challenges are resolved and new ones take their place. That is what makes them liberal.
It is conservative who are stuck in a time warp

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Ultimately, conservatism is anathema to the Framers’ fundamental worldview.

Conservatives fear change, diversity, and dissent; as reactionaries they seek to turn back the hands of time to an idealized American past that never actually existed to begin with.

The Americans of the Foundation Era were diverse and multifaceted, they were not of one mind nor did they see with a single vision – and there were indeed those during that time who feared change and harbored ill-will toward his fellow Americans.

But the Framers and the people of the Era sought change as a means to create for themselves a more perfect Nation – change that required of them courage lacking in today’s conservative; and where liberals today, as the Framers then, embrace change and see it as an opportunity for greatness, conservatives fear and dread change and work to avoid it, perceiving it as a threat to their status and positions of privilege.