I've heard it on here so much enough is enough

[bripat9643]

Bullshit. Jefferson and Adams would both be consider "extreme" right-wingers today. The only one of the founders who differed in any significant way was Thomas Paine. He was the only socialist in the group. The rest were all die-hard supporters of private property and free enterprise.

Hell, JFK would be considered an extreme right-winger today.

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

Quote?

 

[daveman]

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

Linear time, Dave. Linear.
It's always a fun parlor game to yank some historical figure out of his past, plunk him and his actions taken in his own time into our time, and then go, "look, he's one of us/them!"

It actually works if you suspend the idea of linear time.

I notice you're not telling that to the statists who claim ridiculous things like "The Founders would have supported Obamacare".

Why is that, and do you intend to correct your oversight?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I mean reactionaries and TeaPs, not sensible conservatives and Republicans and libertarians.

 

[bripat9643]

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

Linear time, Dave. Linear.
It's always a fun parlor game to yank some historical figure out of his past, plunk him and his actions taken in his own time into our time, and then go, "look, he's one of us/them!"

It actually works if you suspend the idea of linear time.

How does the idea of linear time change anything?

 

[daveman]

Bullshit. Jefferson and Adams would both be consider "extreme" right-wingers today. The only one of the founders who differed in any significant way was Thomas Paine. He was the only socialist in the group. The rest were all die-hard supporters of private property and free enterprise.

Hell, JFK would be considered an extreme right-winger today.

JFK spent all of his presidency trying to expand government run healthcare. Which extreme rightwingers would be with him on that?

Which of today's liberals would be with him on his stance towards Communism and a strong foreign policy?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

They 'were' liberals. Not 'are' liberals. They are dead. They have been a very long time.

As someone once said, 'the past is another country; they do things differently there.'

Progressives, generally, want to make progress; conservatives, generally, want to conserve things the way they are.

Progressives are pragmatists, they seek the best course of action based on facts and evidence, not partisan ideology and dogma; they embrace change and diversity and advocate for a consistent application of the Constitution and its case law.

Conservatives not only seek to keep things the way they are, but as fearful reactionaries they seek to turn back the hands of time, they pursue a myth of an idealized American past, a fantasy that never existed in the first place. As reactionaries conservatives fear change, diversity, and dissent and are often at odds with the Constitution and its case law accordingly.

 

[bripat9643]

I'll say this the founders would be nothing like a modern day Conservative or liberal.

Wrong, they were actually very close to people who call themselves "conservative" today, for lack of a better term.

 

[daveman]

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

If JFK was a conservative, what was Nixon? What was Goldwater? What was LBJ?

Which of today's liberals believe "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country"?

 

[Pogo]

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

Linear time, Dave. Linear.
It's always a fun parlor game to yank some historical figure out of his past, plunk him and his actions taken in his own time into our time, and then go, "look, he's one of us/them!"

It actually works if you suspend the idea of linear time.

I notice you're not telling that to the statists who claim ridiculous things like "The Founders would have supported Obamacare".

Why is that, and do you intend to correct your oversight?

"Oversight"?

Link me back to the part where it says I'm required to respond to literally every post if you would.

TIA.

 

[rightwinger]

Hell, JFK would be considered an extreme right-winger today.

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

JFK advocated reducing taxes that were raised to pay for WWII
He was strong anti-communism because in 1960, we actually had a Cold War

Ask not what your country can do for you....was a call for public service (Peace Corps) not a condemnation of social services

Kennedy advocated Medicare, anti-poverty programs, Civil Rights

As liberal as they come

 

[daveman]

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

70% income tax and 48% corp tax..sure thats conservative...this is above your pay grade dave.

Revenue Act of 1964 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

President John F. Kennedy brought up the issue of tax reduction in his 1963 State of the Union address. His initial plan called for a $13.5 billion tax cut through a reduction of the top income tax rate from 91% to 65%, reduction of the bottom rate from 20% to 14%, and a reduction in the corporate tax rate from 52% to 47%.​

And reality once again kicks progressive history revision square in the ass.

 

[daveman]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

They 'were' liberals. Not 'are' liberals. They are dead. They have been a very long time.

As someone once said, 'the past is another country; they do things differently there.'

Progressives, generally, want to make progress; conservatives, generally, want to conserve things the way they are.

Progressives are pragmatists, they seek the best course of action based on facts and evidence, not partisan ideology and dogma; they embrace change and diversity and advocate for a consistent application of the Constitution and its case law.

Conservatives not only seek to keep things the way they are, but as fearful reactionaries they seek to turn back the hands of time, they pursue a myth of an idealized American past, a fantasy that never existed in the first place. As reactionaries conservatives fear change, diversity, and dissent and are often at odds with the Constitution and its case law accordingly.

I'm not sure which is more disturbing -- the fact that you believe that, or the fact that you vote based on it.

 

[daveman]

Linear time, Dave. Linear.
It's always a fun parlor game to yank some historical figure out of his past, plunk him and his actions taken in his own time into our time, and then go, "look, he's one of us/them!"

It actually works if you suspend the idea of linear time.

I notice you're not telling that to the statists who claim ridiculous things like "The Founders would have supported Obamacare".

Why is that, and do you intend to correct your oversight?

"Oversight"?

Link me back to the part where it says I'm required to respond to literally every post if you would.

TIA.

Oh, so you're not interested in applying your own standards equally to everyone. You don't want to hold those on your own side to those standards.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just say, "I'm not, because I want to be a hypocrite"?

 

[daveman]

Republicans would call him a commie.....just like they did in 1963

JFK advocated tax cuts to strengthen the economy and a strong foreign policy to stand up to Communism. He said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

Yup, no doubt about it. He was a conservative.

JFK advocated reducing taxes that were raised to pay for WWII
He was strong anti-communism because in 1960, we actually had a Cold War

Ask not what your country can do for you....was a call for public service (Peace Corps) not a condemnation of social services

Kennedy advocated Medicare, anti-poverty programs, Civil Rights

As liberal as they come

Like I said -- a rich fantasy life.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

The libertarians don't believe in regulating anything and believe that ONE(or a few) corporations should be able to do what the robber barons did!

Look at the sky's and water of the 1940's
Look at the child labor
Look at the unfair pay

Looked kind of like Vietnam or China before the hybrid system took over...Certainly fight for a fair system but don't tell me that these aren't good charges. You don't believe in bettering our society as everything needs to be cold with you people.

Look at the truly amazing straw man argument.

 

[BlackSand]

JFK advocated reducing taxes that were raised to pay for WWII
He was strong anti-communism because in 1960, we actually had a Cold War

Ask not what your country can do for you....was a call for public service (Peace Corps) not a condemnation of social services

Kennedy advocated Medicare, anti-poverty programs, Civil Rights

As liberal as they come

And Lee Harvey Oswald was a member of the Tea Party ... Don't forget that part.

.

 

[Pogo]

I notice you're not telling that to the statists who claim ridiculous things like "The Founders would have supported Obamacare".

Why is that, and do you intend to correct your oversight?

"Oversight"?

Link me back to the part where it says I'm required to respond to literally every post if you would.

TIA.

Oh, so you're not interested in applying your own standards equally to everyone. You don't want to hold those on your own side to those standards.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just say, "I'm not, because I want to be a hypocrite"?

It ISN'T MY POINT, Dave. In any thread there are several, even dozens of points flying about at once. You actually want ME to address them all? What do I look like, some kind of quantum windbag?

You have any idea how many points -- or threads-- I've read and passed on because I'm either (a) not that interested; (b) already agree; (c) disagree but not sure how to make the case; (d) figure the topic is silly and not worth my time; (e) it's a topic I don't know enough about or (f) don't quite get what the point is??

You want me to explain everything like some kind of oracle?

 

[daveman]

"Oversight"?

Link me back to the part where it says I'm required to respond to literally every post if you would.

TIA.

Oh, so you're not interested in applying your own standards equally to everyone. You don't want to hold those on your own side to those standards.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just say, "I'm not, because I want to be a hypocrite"?

It ISN'T MY POINT, Dave. In any thread there are several, even dozens of points flying about at once. You actually want ME to address them all? What do I look like, some kind of quantum windbag?

You have any idea how many points -- or threads-- I've read and passed on because I'm either (a) not that interested; (b) already agree; (c) disagree but not sure how to make the case; (d) figure the topic is silly and not worth my time; or (e) it's a topic I don't know enough about??

Holy fuck, it's not my point and you want me to explain it? Wtf?

It's really quite simple. Several people in this thread...on your side...have compared the Founders to today's liberals -- and you remain silent.

But when I, a conservative, compare JFK to today's conservatives, you have a cow.

Don't pretend it's about any grand and noble principle. A conservative said something you don't like.

That's really all it is.

 

[Pogo]

Oh, so you're not interested in applying your own standards equally to everyone. You don't want to hold those on your own side to those standards.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just say, "I'm not, because I want to be a hypocrite"?

It ISN'T MY POINT, Dave. In any thread there are several, even dozens of points flying about at once. You actually want ME to address them all? What do I look like, some kind of quantum windbag?

You have any idea how many points -- or threads-- I've read and passed on because I'm either (a) not that interested; (b) already agree; (c) disagree but not sure how to make the case; (d) figure the topic is silly and not worth my time; or (e) it's a topic I don't know enough about??

Holy fuck, it's not my point and you want me to explain it? Wtf?

It's really quite simple. Several people in this thread...on your side...have compared the Founders to today's liberals -- and you remain silent.

But when I, a conservative, compare JFK to today's conservatives, you have a cow.

Don't pretend it's about any grand and noble principle. A conservative said something you don't like.

That's really all it is.

Look -- I'll put this as simply as I can...

I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING "SIDE". Did you get that?

*I* did not make the point. I didn't consider the point; I'm not even sure what the point means. Why don't you ask the poster who actually *DID* make the point??

Is it some kind of esoteric concept that one individual is a different entity from another individual? Are you so enslaved to the label mentality that you think every opinion that doesn't match yours must come from some sort of Borg?

Or did the nurse not bring you your coffee this morning? Because what you're asking is absurd.

YOUR sin was a temporal shift. It's not hard to see why that's fallacious. Unless the concept of linear time is as elusive as that of individual minds. Furthermore your hack phrase "today's liberals" is inoperative here, since I've specifically disputed the way the word is used in the first place.

 

[daveman]

It ISN'T MY POINT, Dave. In any thread there are several, even dozens of points flying about at once. You actually want ME to address them all? What do I look like, some kind of quantum windbag?

You have any idea how many points -- or threads-- I've read and passed on because I'm either (a) not that interested; (b) already agree; (c) disagree but not sure how to make the case; (d) figure the topic is silly and not worth my time; or (e) it's a topic I don't know enough about??

Holy fuck, it's not my point and you want me to explain it? Wtf?

It's really quite simple. Several people in this thread...on your side...have compared the Founders to today's liberals -- and you remain silent.

But when I, a conservative, compare JFK to today's conservatives, you have a cow.

Don't pretend it's about any grand and noble principle. A conservative said something you don't like.

That's really all it is.

Look -- I'll put this as simply as I can...

I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING "SIDE". Did you get that?

Yes. But I don't believe it.

*I* did not make the point. I didn't consider the point; I'm not even sure what the point means. Why don't you ask the poster who actually *DID* make the point??

It's the same point I made about JFK, only substituting the Founding Fathers and modern liberals.

And yet you, who doesn't have a side, objected only to my comparison.

Weird, huh?

Is it some kind of esoteric concept that one individual is a different entity from another individual? Are you so enslaved to the label mentality that you think every opinion that doesn't match yours must come from some sort of Borg?

Or did the nurse not bring you your coffee this morning? Because what you're asking is absurd.

Yes, asking for the equal application of standards is just insane.

YOUR sin was a temporal shift. It's not hard to see why that's fallacious. Unless the concept of linear time is as elusive as that of individual minds.

I'm not the only one who's committed the "sin" of temporal shift.

But I'm the only one you condemn for committing it.

Tell me again you don't have a side.

Furthermore your hack phrase "today's liberals" is irrelevant, since I've specifically disputed the way the word is used in the first place.

Yes. But you didn't dispute it successfully.