I've heard it on here so much enough is enough

[NYcarbineer]

OK, point by point.

Let's debate it point by point, with real substance. The following is out of the opening statement by JFK in his September 1960 debate with Nixon:

I don't want the talents of any American to go to waste. I know that there are those who want to turn everything over to the government. I don't at all. I want the individuals to meet their responsibilities. And I want the states to meet their responsibilities.

"Responsibilities" as defined how and by whom?

But I think there is also a national responsibility. The argument has been used against every piece of social legislation in the last twenty-five years. The people of the United States individually could not have developed the Tennessee Valley; collectively they could have.

Two straw man arguments in one.

• Your opinion that there is a national responsibility does not make it so by fiat.
  
• The people of the United States DID create the TVA. That it was imposed upon the area is irrelevant, as development of the project wasn't even considered or attempted as a voluntary compact between states.

Never heard of the commodities markets, have you?

Seventeen million Americans, who live over sixty-five on an average Social Security check of about seventy-eight dollars a month, they're not able to sustain themselves individually, but they can sustain themselves through the social security system.

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Now, if JFK would be a 2013 conservative, shoulder to shoulder with Ted Cruz, and Rand Paul, or you name your own, how much of the above would be drawing cheers from them?

Another straw man argument.

I can't find a post of anyone claiming that JFK would be standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Cruz, Paul or any of the other TEA party crowd. Can you link to a post that claims this?

Those were Kennedy's words, genius. The claims are that Kennedy would be a conservative today.

Cruz and Paul and a few others are the true conservatives today. Just ask them. The Tea Party represents true conservatism.

Just ask them.

 

[NYcarbineer]

JFK spent all of his presidency trying to expand government run healthcare. Which extreme rightwingers would be with him on that?

Which of today's liberals would be with him on his stance towards Communism and a strong foreign policy?

Cold War is over....I wouldn't support his stance on Communism
Liberals have a strong foreign policy. Ever hear of FDR and how Conservatives advocated isolationism? Ever see Obamas stance on fighting terrorism?

The war on terror replaced the Cold War, remember? The question then is...

...would Kennedy be as tough going after Al Qaeda as Barack Obama has, or would he be with the conservatives complaining about too much use of drones?

 

[HelenaHandbag]

OK, point by point.

Let's debate it point by point, with real substance. The following is out of the opening statement by JFK in his September 1960 debate with Nixon:

I don't want the talents of any American to go to waste. I know that there are those who want to turn everything over to the government. I don't at all. I want the individuals to meet their responsibilities. And I want the states to meet their responsibilities.

"Responsibilities" as defined how and by whom?


Two straw man arguments in one.

• Your opinion that there is a national responsibility does not make it so by fiat.
  
• The people of the United States DID create the TVA. That it was imposed upon the area is irrelevant, as development of the project wasn't even considered or attempted as a voluntary compact between states.

Never heard of the commodities markets, have you?



I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Now, if JFK would be a 2013 conservative, shoulder to shoulder with Ted Cruz, and Rand Paul, or you name your own, how much of the above would be drawing cheers from them?

Another straw man argument.

I can't find a post of anyone claiming that JFK would be standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Cruz, Paul or any of the other TEA party crowd. Can you link to a post that claims this?

Those were Kennedy's words, genius. The claims are that Kennedy would be a conservative today.

Cruz and Paul and a few others are the true conservatives today. Just ask them. The Tea Party represents true conservatism.

Just ask them.

Couldn't care less. The critique stands.

Kennedy would probably be a moderate republican or an exiled independent, a-la Joe Lieberman, today. I would even throw in the likes of William Proxmire (the author of the Golden Fleece awards, decrying federal waste) and Scoop Jackson.

Men like them certainly chart to the right of cranks like Pelosi, Wasserman-Schultz, Reid, Sanders, etcetera.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

That's exactly what I mean some liberals on here think the founders are equal to modern day liberals. and would support the policies of modern day liberals.

And some conservatives here think the founders are equal to modern day conservatives, and would support the policies of modern day conservatives.

Both views are idiotic.

Yeah, I think they call themselves Tea Party something-or-others.....Their certainty is what galls me. And yet I doubt 99% of them have ever even read the Constitution, and those who did probably don't understand it.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

OK, point by point.

Let's debate it point by point, with real substance. The following is out of the opening statement by JFK in his September 1960 debate with Nixon:

I don't want the talents of any American to go to waste. I know that there are those who want to turn everything over to the government. I don't at all. I want the individuals to meet their responsibilities. And I want the states to meet their responsibilities.

"Responsibilities" as defined how and by whom?

But I think there is also a national responsibility. The argument has been used against every piece of social legislation in the last twenty-five years. The people of the United States individually could not have developed the Tennessee Valley; collectively they could have.

Two straw man arguments in one.

• Your opinion that there is a national responsibility does not make it so by fiat.
  
• The people of the United States DID create the TVA. That it was imposed upon the area is irrelevant, as development of the project wasn't even considered or attempted as a voluntary compact between states.

Never heard of the commodities markets, have you?

Seventeen million Americans, who live over sixty-five on an average Social Security check of about seventy-eight dollars a month, they're not able to sustain themselves individually, but they can sustain themselves through the social security system.

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Now, if JFK would be a 2013 conservative, shoulder to shoulder with Ted Cruz, and Rand Paul, or you name your own, how much of the above would be drawing cheers from them?

Another straw man argument.

I can't find a post of anyone claiming that JFK would be standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Cruz, Paul or any of the other TEA party crowd. Can you link to a post that claims this?

If Carbineer's arguments are straw man, then please....make sure no one with a lit match gets close to you.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

OK, point by point.

Let's debate it point by point, with real substance. The following is out of the opening statement by JFK in his September 1960 debate with Nixon:

I don't want the talents of any American to go to waste. I know that there are those who want to turn everything over to the government. I don't at all. I want the individuals to meet their responsibilities. And I want the states to meet their responsibilities.

"Responsibilities" as defined how and by whom?


Two straw man arguments in one.

• Your opinion that there is a national responsibility does not make it so by fiat.
  
• The people of the United States DID create the TVA. That it was imposed upon the area is irrelevant, as development of the project wasn't even considered or attempted as a voluntary compact between states.

Never heard of the commodities markets, have you?



I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Now, if JFK would be a 2013 conservative, shoulder to shoulder with Ted Cruz, and Rand Paul, or you name your own, how much of the above would be drawing cheers from them?

Another straw man argument.

I can't find a post of anyone claiming that JFK would be standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Cruz, Paul or any of the other TEA party crowd. Can you link to a post that claims this?

Those were Kennedy's words, genius. The claims are that Kennedy would be a conservative today.

Cruz and Paul and a few others are the true conservatives today. Just ask them. The Tea Party represents true conservatism.

Just ask them.

I don't think JFK would have been anymore a conservative today than his late brother EMK was, ....You know, "The Lion of the Senate" as they called him in mourning his passing in 2009.

 

[daveman]

Dave is a moron

Why would anyone today, liberal or conservative, support JFKs stance on Communism?
His stance on communism led to the Bay of Pigs and the Vietnam war

1961 is not 2013

So, JFK was a moron.

I retract my claim, then. He's JUST LIKE modern liberals.

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

 

[daveman]

JFK spent all of his presidency trying to expand government run healthcare. Which extreme rightwingers would be with him on that?

Which of today's liberals would be with him on his stance towards Communism and a strong foreign policy?

Too many of them, like too many of our Pubs, are neo-cons.

Only someone to the far, far left would believe that.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

So, JFK was a moron.

I retract my claim, then. He's JUST LIKE modern liberals.

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Yeah, and if most of the people on this board would wake up, they would realize they are serfs in a plutocracy, not comrades in stateless society.

 

[rightwinger]

So, JFK was a moron.

I retract my claim, then. He's JUST LIKE modern liberals.

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

Agreed.

So, when are democrats going to propose closing all the military bases in Europe, which are now as obsolete in strategic importance as related to the Cold War?

When has a one of them proposed such a thing?

 

[daveman]

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Yeah, and if most of the people on this board would wake up, they would realize they are serfs in a plutocracy, not comrades in stateless society.

When people say, "Wake up!", they don't actually want you to wake up.

They want you to share their dream.

 

[daveman]

Do you, or do you not support JFKs stand on Communism in 2013?

Should we be trying to kill Castro? Should we attack Cuba? Should we restart a Cold War with Russia? Should we attack those Commies in Vietnam?

That is what you are advocating

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

I never said it was a threat to the US. I said it was a bad thing. Apparently, you disagree.

 

[rightwinger]

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

Agreed.

So, when are democrats going to propose closing all the military bases in Europe, which are now as obsolete in strategic importance as related to the Cold War?

When has a one of them proposed such a thing?

The last BRAC basically did that

 

[Pogo]

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

Agreed.

So, when are democrats going to propose closing all the military bases in Europe, which are now as obsolete in strategic importance as related to the Cold War?

When has a one of them proposed such a thing?

Ah, well here we get to the illusion of political parties and who actually pulls the strings of those two puppets we like to pretend are different because they're in different colours...

Let's sing it all together, kids...

M - I - C....

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

Agreed.

So, when are democrats going to propose closing all the military bases in Europe, which are now as obsolete in strategic importance as related to the Cold War?

When has a one of them proposed such a thing?

The last BRAC basically did that

Link?

 

[Pogo]

Yes. But I don't believe it.

It's the same point I made about JFK, only substituting the Founding Fathers and modern liberals.

And yet you, who doesn't have a side, objected only to my comparison.

Weird, huh?

Yes, asking for the equal application of standards is just insane.

Poor you, start the pity party. More whine.

What I did was pointed out the folly of taking some historical figure out of his historical context. The OP stupid question does the same thing. It's fallacious no matter who does it.

And guess what Einstein -- that's why I never took the OP question seriously. He's been beating the same question to death in another thread and it's just as silly there. Same reason. DUH. So by the time I got to your fallacy it was a reiteration.

Have a look back -- I didn't come here to address that. I came to correct the definition of terms. This just in -- it's not necessary to entertain silly questions.

Who knew.





Again, take a Midol for your persecution complex.

OK, I have a side. I'm on the side of fucking linear time. So sue me.

Yes. But you didn't dispute it successfully.

That would take two. I can only lead the horse to water; can't force it to think. Your failure to do so doesn't make your hack phrase come to life.

Nor does it make me part of the Borg.

In summary: You're right because you say you are, and demanding different standards for different groups does NOT make you a hypocrite.

All righty then.

You need to come out of that suit. Methinks you've got the bends.

I proffered no "standards for different groups". YOU did.

Unfortunately I'm no more responsible for your posts than for anyone else's. Just mine.
Write that 500 times until it sinks in.

 

[Pogo]

Which of today's liberals would be with him on his stance towards Communism and a strong foreign policy?

Here's an example of your flawed question. NONE of the ingredients in your question mean the same thing in 2013 as they meant in 1963. Were JFK living in 2013, he would have attitudes and policies that reflected this time. As would anyone else from the past. But he didn't.

More background on that bolded part above is here, although it's mostly about political machinations.

Special note to Special Dave: I didn't write this article so don't be taking me to task for content you don't like. And while it does draw temporal parallels, which you can take with however many grains of salt suit you, it at least frames the issue in its own time.

Let's see, I've already asked you if you were going to take rightwinger to task for making false parallels, haven't I?

Oh, yes, I did. And you replied with wide-eyed innocence that you don't have to apply the same standards to everyone.

You're stubborn in your blatant dishonesty huh?

It WASN'T. MY. POINT. Exactly what part of that escapes your synapse?

Why are you afraid to just ask the poster who posted it?

 

[rightwinger]

Agreed.

So, when are democrats going to propose closing all the military bases in Europe, which are now as obsolete in strategic importance as related to the Cold War?

When has a one of them proposed such a thing?

The last BRAC basically did that

Link?

Defense.gov News Article: DOD Conducts ?BRAC-like? Review in Europe

 

[rightwinger]

It's funny when people who can't think for themselves believe they can tell what other people are thinking.

Here's a hint, in case you didn't know: Communism is a bad thing. Really.

Communism today is no threat to the United States. No need to invade and have Americans killed to stop the threat

Kennedy fought the Communist threat of 1961. To assume we need the same anti- communist policy that Kennedy had is moronic

But then again......you are the daveman

I never said it was a threat to the US. I said it was a bad thing. Apparently, you disagree.

Terrorism is bad.......Communism is not a threat

Now...go back to justifying how JFK is Conservative

Peace Corps, Civil Rights, Medicare, anti poverty programs

Sounds liberal to me...are you suddenly pro healthcare?