i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[g5000]

it's also true that the Minsk Negotiations about the Donbass region were ignored by The West, and that the Donbass region, like the Ukraine region, is populated primarily with Russian speakers.

and that Moscow had made clear to The West that they would protect Russian territories and their Russian-speaking inhabitants in Crimea (annexated by Russia earlier on the timeline).

Congratulations, comrade. You've just used the exact same argument Hitler used to invade Czechoslavakia.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Once again you’re uninformed. What a surprise.

Promises where made never to expand NATO to the east of Germany, by American leaders. Look it up.

There is nothing to look up because NATO promised nothing and Jim Baker's statement only applied to the first Biden administration. Again you demonstrate spectacular ignorance. The agreement over East Germany, which was a formal written agreement specified that only German troops could be stationed in East Germany and not any other NATO troops and it is still in force today.

You may be too stupid and ignorant to know that except for a formal treaty which was approved by 2/3 of the Senate, no agreement by any US president is binding on future US presidents, which is why it was so easy for Trump to withdraw from Obama's agreement with Iran, but Gorbachev had foreign policy advisors who did understand it and that is why there was never any negotiation concerning whether NATO would accept former Soviet states.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I see...

The act of surrounding a country with a military alliance is not a hostile act, it's a pure manisfestation of love, friendship and fraternity...

That's why Israel has been begging since its creation for western countries to establish a mutual defence pact with Lebannon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, surrounding all the borders of the jewish state.

Nothing says pacifist intentions like a good, old military alliance surrounding your country.

Russia is not surrounded by NATO states. Get yourself a map.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
Russia is not surrounded by NATO states. Get yourself a map.

Neither would Israel in the hypothetical example I gave above.

They would still have their "border" with the Mediterranean sea not surrounded by Nato troops. : )

Now go find someone else to play dumb with.

You know perfectly well I'm referring to Russia's western borders, where Moscow, where european Russia, where the heart of the country lies.

 

[José]

The only reason European Russia is not 100% surrounded by NATO is exactly Russia's defensive measures taken in the last 30 years in Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia.

The same measures you use to lambast Russia so much.

You cannot present this fact as coming out of the goodness of Nato's heart.

Russia is the sole responsible for not finding herself surrounded by America and her lackeys.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Neither would Israel in the hypothetical example I gave above.

They would still have their "border" with the Mediterranean sea not surrounded by Nato troops. : )

Now go find someone else to play dumb with.

You know perfectly well I'm referring to Russia's western borders, where Moscow, where european Russia, where the heart of the country lies.

You shouldn't exaggerate by claiming Russia is surrounded by NATO when you know it's not true. Russia has borders with four NATO member state, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and a tiny border with northern Norway and these borders have never posed any threat to Russia's security. If you actually had any interest in this topic, you would ask yourself why all these states were so eager to join NATO. If you did you would find out it was because of Russia's long history of treachery and aggression against its neighbors. Instead of whining that no one trusts him, Putin should be apologizing for not being trustworthy.

 

[ESay]

Read some actual history, you ignorant prick. The Cossack Hetmanate. If you want to know what borders 'Ukraine' had in 1654.

 

[georgephillip]

Again, nothing but brain farts from you. Nuland did not select anyone, the US favored some Ukrainian politicians over others after the traitorous Yanukovych was dismissed by the Ukrainian parliament

Nuland selected Yatseniuk for prime minister, and he became prime minister. Can you connect those dots? If the US "favored some Ukrainian politicians" does that suggest the US meddled in the election of a sovereign state on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland (again)?

Yanukovych fled Kyiv one day after an agreement had been reached with the country's opposition. This opposition that murdered police officers in support of an illegal coup the US helped plan and support.

US puppets have ruled Ukraine ever since, and they are solely responsible for the killing happening there today.

 

[georgephillip]

ou and Putin clearly believe the Ukrainian people must do what is best for Russia rather than what is best for themselves and threaten to kill them if they do not obey. It is in this sense that it is clear you do not understand what the word, border, means: Russia ends at its border with Ukraine and has no right to cross that border unless it is being attacked.

Putin knows the US regularly meddles in the internal politics of states like Ukraine in order to enhance arms sales to NATO countries.

He fully understands how Victoria Nuland selected the prime minister that replaced a duly elected president in 2014, and he will not tolerate a NATO armed and trained state on his western border.

Since 1945 and certainly since the end of the USSR there has been only one imperial power and that is the US. Millions of innocent human beings have been murdered, maimed, and displaced by the US over those years, and it is happening again in Ukraine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Nuland selected Yatseniuk for prime minister, and he became prime minister. Can you connect those dots? If the US "favored some Ukrainian politicians" does that suggest the US meddled in the election of a sovereign state on the opposite side of the planet from its homeland (again)?

Yanukovych fled Kyiv one day after an agreement had been reached with the country's opposition. This opposition that murdered police officers in support of an illegal coup the US helped plan and support.

US puppets have ruled Ukraine ever since, and they are solely responsible for the killing happening there today.

The US had an opinion on which politician would be best for Ukraine to maintain its independence from Russia and discussed its opinions with Ukrainian politicians. That was the extent of US "meddling". Yanukovych was removed from office by an overwhelming vote in the Ukrainian parliament on the grounds he was unable to perform his duties. The demonstrations against Yanukovych were huge but not violent until he ordered the police to fire into the crowds and then they became violent. He had tried to be a Putin puppet like Lukashenko but the Ukrainian people would have none of it. In any case, if Russia had been a civilized country this would not have been seen as grounds to break its 1994 pledge not to violate Ukraine's borders.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Putin knows the US regularly meddles in the internal politics of states like Ukraine in order to enhance arms sales to NATO countries.

He fully understands how Victoria Nuland selected the prime minister that replaced a duly elected president in 2014, and he will not tolerate a NATO armed and trained state on his western border.

Since 1945 and certainly since the end of the USSR there has been only one imperial power and that is the US. Millions of innocent human beings have been murdered, maimed, and displaced by the US over those years, and it is happening again in Ukraine.

I get it. You don't like the US and you enjoy watching Russians kill Ukrainians.

 

[georgephillip]

Btw, the number of Ukrainians killed in this war number in the thousands or perhaps in the low tens of thousands, but they only number in the millions in your twisted bloodthirsty fantasies.

How many Ukrainians have been displaced by US meddling in their internal affairs, more than Syrians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans?

Ukraine's battlefield losses are unsustainable despite what your corporate media tells you:

Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism

"Mykhaylo Podolyak, a senior aid to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, recently estimated that Ukraine was losing between 100 and 200 soldiers a day on the frontlines with Russia, and another 500 or so wounded.

"These are unsustainable losses, brought on by the ongoing disparity in combat capability between Russia and Ukraine symbolized, but not limited to, artillery.

"In recognition of this reality, NATO Secretary General Jen Stoltenberg announced that Ukraine will more than likely have to make territorial concessions to Russia as part of any potential peace agreement, asking,

"'what price are you willing to pay for peace? How much territory, how much independence, how much sovereignty…are you willing to sacrifice for peace?'"

 

[toomuchtime_]

How many Ukrainians have been displaced by US meddling in their internal affairs, more than Syrians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans?

Ukraine's battlefield losses are unsustainable despite what your corporate media tells you:

Scott Ritter: The Fantasy of Fanaticism

"Mykhaylo Podolyak, a senior aid to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, recently estimated that Ukraine was losing between 100 and 200 soldiers a day on the frontlines with Russia, and another 500 or so wounded.

"These are unsustainable losses, brought on by the ongoing disparity in combat capability between Russia and Ukraine symbolized, but not limited to, artillery.

"In recognition of this reality, NATO Secretary General Jen Stoltenberg announced that Ukraine will more than likely have to make territorial concessions to Russia as part of any potential peace agreement, asking,

"'what price are you willing to pay for peace? How much territory, how much independence, how much sovereignty…are you willing to sacrifice for peace?'"

If he said it, it was a very foolish thing to say. At this point no one in his right mind would trust Putin to abide by any agreement so there can be no deal and there will be no territorial concessions. This war can only end when Russia's battlefield losses become unsustainable and the Russian economy is so damaged that it cannot sustain any war.

 

[georgephillip]

Nothing but bullshit from you again. Ukraine's present borders were formally recognized by Russia in 1994, and at that time Russia pledged to never violate those borders unless attacked by Ukraine.

And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:

"The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.

"The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to 'integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'

"'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement."

More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered

 

[georgephillip]

You are deeply confused. Russia is trying to bully Ukraine and the US is helping Ukraine to defend itself against Russia's imperialist aggressions.

The US is fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood just as it's done since Operation Red Sox in 1949.

The Complexities of the Ukraine Dilemma

 

[georgephillip]

Russia is not surrounded by NATO states. Get yourself a map.

Where's your map showing Russian bases around the US?

 

[toomuchtime_]

And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:

"The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.

"The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to 'integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'

"'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement."

More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered

You just pay no attention at all to the meaning of the words you use. There is no meaning to "de facto NATO member". For you, any excuse to kill Ukrainians is a good excuse. Ukraine applied for NATO membership back in 2008 after Putin invaded Georgia but France and Germany have been steadfast in refusing to even consider it because, they said, it might hurt Putin's feelings. Your argument that Russia has the right to invade Ukraine and kill thousands of Ukrainian people because it doesn't like the way Ukraine handles its internal affairs explains why no one in his right mind would sign any agreement with Russia.

 

[ESay]

And when Ukraine became a de facto NATO member that agreement was violated:

"The switch to the U.S. cannon has effects that spread beyond the battlefield as it better aligns Ukrainian forces with partners in the West, (Ukraine Defense Minister Oleksii) Reznikov said.

"The minister said learning the western systems represents a step toward his goal to 'integrate Ukraine into NATO de facto.'

"'Gradually, this will ensure full compatibility of the Ukrainian army with the armies of NATO countries, which will become a significant reinforcement of the eastern flank of the alliance,' he said in the statement."

More than half of the 90 US howitzers bound for Ukraine now delivered

There wasn't any agreement that prohibited Ukraine joining NATO, you idiot.

 

[AntonToo]

The US is fighting for regime change in Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood just as it's done since Operation Red Sox in 1949.

The Complexities of the Ukraine Dilemma

Ukrainians choose for themselves.

Ukranians choose to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.

Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.


Here is a crazy idea - If Russia's leadership doesn't want their regime threatened they should abstain from conducting bloody, economically disasterous invasions and work to make their people's lives better instead of ruining them.

 

[gipper]

Ukrainians choose for themselves.

Ukranians choose to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.

Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.


Here is a crazy idea - If Russia's leadership doesn't want their regime threatened they should abstain from conducting bloody, economically disasterous invasions and work to make their people's lives better instead of ruining them.

It appears they had a tentative peace agreement in April, but the West killed it. So they keep killing Ukrainians.

Despite calls by some for a negotiated settlement that would involve Ukrainian territorial concessions, Putin seems uninterested in a compromise that would leave Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state—whatever its borders. According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. But as Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated in a July interview with his country’s state media, this compromise is no longer an option. Even giving Russia all of the Donbas is not enough. “Now the geography is different,” Lavrov asserted, in describing Russia’s short-term military aims. “It’s also Kherson and the Zaporizhzhya regions and a number of other territories.” The goal is not negotiation, but Ukrainian capitulation
archive.ph

Report: Russia, Ukraine Tentatively Agreed on Peace Deal in April​

Boris Johnson arrived in Kyiv not long after the talks and told Zelensky not to negotiate with Russia, saying the West wasn't ready to sign a dealby Dave DeCamp Posted on August 31, 2022Categories NewsTags Russia, Ukraine
Russian and Ukrainian officials tentatively agreed on a potential peace deal during negotiations back in April 2022, according to a Foreign Affairs article by Fiona Hill and Angela Stent that cited former US officials.
The article reads: “According to multiple former senior US officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement.”
The terms of that settlement would have been for Russia to withdraw to the positions it held before launching the invasion on February 24. In exchange, Ukraine would “promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”
The tentative deal was the result of in-person peace talks Russian and Ukrainian officials held in Istanbul at the end of March. Virtual talks resumed after the meeting in Istanbul, but the two sides ultimately failed to reach a deal.
Report: Russia, Ukraine Tentatively Agreed on Peace Deal in April - News From Antiwar.com