i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[toomuchtime_]

If Russians expressed a similar opinion regarding which Mexican president would best maintain Mexico's independence from the US and supported a violent coup that drove that duly elected president from power, would that qualify as "meddling"?

Of course there was no coup. Yanukovych was voted out of office by an overwhelming majority of the parliament and new elections were held. In the face of overwhelming popular and parliamentary opposition, Yanukovych attempted to hand the Ukrainian government over to Putin, probably on Putin's orders, and when that failed Putin promptly invaded attempting to take by force what he had been unable to swindle Ukraine.

Presenting these bizarre hypotheticals about the US does nothing to justify Russia's illegal and inhumane actions; it just demonstrates that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes which you support.

 

[ESay]

That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.

Yes, it is better not to trust politicians. Nothing new, really. While concentrating on NATO expansion, you can't ignore the fact that it is former Warsaw Pact members wanted to join the block to have security guarantees from the West. Eastern Europe is not the place where Russia is trusted too much.

If not NATO, some other military block would have been set up there.

 

[ESay]

Russia obviously has a long link with Ukraine and there are many Russian speakers in Ukraine. How long does Poland have? Is their another substantial ethnic group in Ukraine?

The number of Poles in Ukraine is quite small, as far as I know. Some parts of Ukraine belonged to Poland over some periods in history.

 

[ESay]

View attachment 690413

Now why didn’t peace happen? Any ideas?

Maybe because that is a worthless piece of paper and the Russians never suggested anything similar to that?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The vote to remove Yanukovych came after a violent mob forced him to flee; thereby, making it impossible for his to perform his duties. The mob was hijacked by right-wing, neo-Nazis who killed police officers in pursuit of their fascist movement.

What percentage of all Ukrainians supported your allegedly "huge" demonstrations against Yanukovych; was it more or less than those who opposed accepting IMF conditionalities attached to loans whose repayment would require abolishing gas subsidies? How many Ukrainians supported Maidan protesters who started shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street?

Bullshit, his job was hijacked by Putin who ordered him to reject the free trade agreement with the EU, which would have brought considerable economic benefits to Ukraine, and to embrace Russia's European Economic Union, which would have brought no benefits to Ukraine.
Yanukovych was Putin's man in Kyiv and once he failed to deliver Ukraine to Putin peacefully, he called on Putin to invade Ukraine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I don't like watching US elites fight for regime change in Moscow to the last drop of Ukrainian blood. Since you seem to believe the US is one of the "good guys", why don't you answer the question how many innocent human beings has the US murdered, maimed, and displaced on the opposite side of the planet since 1945?

Again, with these bizarre rants against the US you demonstrate that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes but support them anyway.

 

[toomuchtime_]

He said it, and it's true.
Ukraine has the same chance of winning against Russia as Mexico has of winning against the US.
Ukrainians are dying by the thousands to bring regime change to Moscow.

Ukrainian casualties: Kyiv losing up to 200 troops a day - Zelensky aide

"A senior Ukrainian presidential aide has told the BBC that between 100 and 200 Ukrainian troops are being killed on the front line every day.

"Mykhaylo Podolyak said Ukraine needed hundreds of Western artillery systems to level the playing field with Russia in the eastern Donbas region.

"He also said Kyiv is not ready to resume peace talks with Moscow.

"Ukrainian troops are under relentless bombardment as Russian forces attempt to take control of the whole of Donbas.

"'The Russian forces have thrown pretty much everything non-nuclear at the front and that includes heavy artillery, multiple rocket launch systems and aviation,' Mr Podolyak said.

"He repeated Ukraine's appeal for more weapons from the West, saying that the 'complete lack of parity' between the Russian and Ukrainian armies was the reason for Ukraine's heavy casualty rate."

There is no rational scenario in which Russia wins, or even survives, this war unless the western allies surrender to Putin this winter. There is no way the grossly incompetent Russian military can prevail on the battlefield unless it uses its nukes to kill then of millions of Ukrainians and even then it will not survive the never ending sanctions.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That is true but those who promise in supposed friendship and then go back on their word are people who it is wise not to trust.

No one went back on his word. Gorbachev understood that short of a formal treaty no US president can dictate what the next president may do, and as for NATO, its founding charter states that any European nation may join NATO, and it would have had to be amended if any such promise had been made. That's why there were never any negotiations about former Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO.

 

[gipper]

Yep, thats all Russian poodles like you know.

Russians launching bloody invasions and annexing other countries? Cool, not-Nazis.
Ukranians defending their land? Nazis!!!

Does it hurt to be so fucking stupid? It must.

Yet you think what the USG has done these past few decades is warranted.

CRAZY!

NAZI!!!

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yet you think what the USG has done these past few decades is warranted.

CRAZY!

NAZI!!!

In other words you find Russia's actions indefensible at the same time you support them and so you are trying to change the subject to vague allusions about what the US may have done.

 

[georgephillip]

You just pay no attention at all to the meaning of the words you use. There is no meaning to "de facto NATO member". F

When a country receives NATO arms and training and is regularly mentioned for NATO membership that country becomes a de facto NATO member.

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership

 

[georgephillip]

For you, any excuse to kill Ukrainians is a good excuse. Ukraine applied for NATO membership back in 2008 after Putin invaded Georgia but France and Germany have been steadfast in refusing to even consider it because, they said, it might hurt Putin's feelings

France and Germany opposed that insanity because they don't have the Atlantic Ocean between Moscow and their capital cities. The US has been provoking Russia since the fall of the USSR. For the first twenty years the Russians could do little but complain verbally. That ended last February. They are now making it clear they will not tolerate a hostile foreign military alliance on their western border, and there is absolutely nothing US war-whores (like you) can do to change that reality.

 

[georgephillip]

Your argument that Russia has the right to invade Ukraine and kill thousands of Ukrainian people because it doesn't like the way Ukraine handles its internal affairs explains why no one in his right mind would sign any agreement with Russia.

Russia has the same right to defend its borders as the US has to employ the Monroe Doctrine.

Has the U.S. begun a new Monroe Doctrine in the Middle East?

 

[toomuchtime_]

When a country receives NATO arms and training and is regularly mentioned for NATO membership that country becomes a de facto NATO member.

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership

There are no facts to support your ridiculous claim that Ukraine was in any way part of NATO. The only mention of Ukraine joining NATO was the fact it would not be allowed to join. NATO never sent any weapons to Ukraine, but some NATO member states did. At first the weapons that were sent were left over Soviet weapons and when these ran out weapons that met NATO standards were sent because those were the only weapons these states had.

Russia's pledge to never violate Ukraine's borders was not abrogated by the fake that Ukraine received military aid from some NATO members; all Russian treaties, agreements, understandings and pledges were trashed the moment Putin came to power and that is why there can be no new agreements with Russia while he remains in power.

 

[georgephillip]

There wasn't any agreement that prohibited Ukraine joining NATO, you idiot.

Which agreement are you referring to, MAGA?

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia

"The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with US Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[2] prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, 'except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.'"

When the US supported a violent coup against a duly elected Ukrainian president in 2014, it violated the terms of this agreement.

 

[AntonToo]

In other words you find Russia's actions indefensible at the same time you support them and so you are trying to change the subject to vague allusions about what the US may have done.

It's all this Russian poodle has.

Everyone is a Nazi...except the fascists invading Ukraine.

He claims to be an American and as much as I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, there is just no way for me to believe that.

 

[AntonToo]

Russia has the same right to defend its borders as the US has to employ the Monroe Doctrine.

Has the U.S. begun a new Monroe Doctrine in the Middle East?

Russian border is in the middle of Ukraine?

Since when?

 

[georgephillip]

Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.

When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump.

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone

 

[AntonToo]

When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump

I watched it on Tuesday. Literally most of what they say on their primetime political shows is laughable, transparent propaganda.

It's on the whole different level from American media. For starters, because there is NO ONE to check their bullshit.

Here in the states we have true political opposition and media viewpoint diversity to challenge reporting.

All that's left in Russia is Putin Vision, whatever small independent voices were remaining got squashed at the onset of the invasion.

 

[georgephillip]

Bullshit you are posting is exactly what they spout day in and out on Russian state TV.

When's the last time you watched Russian TV?
If you believe the western media isn't lying to the same extent as the Russians, you're as ignorant as Trump.

Ukranians choose to defend their homeland and fight Russian invasion, they begged EU/US for support and thank us for all we provide.

They are stealing the EU/US aid.
What would you expect from the second most corrupt state in Europe?

Ukraine war veterans on how Kiev plundered US aid, wasted soldiers, endangered civilians, and lost the war - The Grayzone

"Last month, Ukraine’s parliamentarians voted to give themselves a 70% salary increase.

"Filings indicate the raise was enabled and encouraged by the billions of dollars and euros of aid that have poured in from the US and Europe.

"'We, the Ukrainian soldiers, have nothing,' said Ivan. 'The things the soldiers have been given to use in the war came directly from volunteers. The aid that goes to our government will never reach us.'"