Jane Roe going to Supreme Court.....

[musicman]

I haven't read all of the many posts so I don't know if it has been mentioned but I wonder , when does the measurable electrical charge that is in all of us when we are alive and disappears when we die , enter the fetus? I guess this charge is what many consider the soul . I have seen a few people that were dead and a number of animals , it seems more noticeable in humans . I guess that could also be the lack of blood pumping through the body but a person definitely looks different a moment after they die . When does the soul enter the body according to different religions ?

That's a damn good question, sitarro. My honest answer is that I don't know - and I'll go out on a limb and say no one else knows either. Since no one really knows - and since the stakes are as high as stakes get (life and death), wouldn't it just be common sense - common decency - to err on the side of caution - the side of life?

That's the point I've been trying to make. That's why I've asked Civil Liberty that same question like half a dozen times in this thread alone. And, that's the reason he hasn't answered me - he's basically full of shit.

 

[sitarro]

That's a damn good question, sitarro. My honest answer is that I don't know - and I'll go out on a limb and say no one else knows either. Since no one really knows - and since the stakes are as high as stakes get (life and death), wouldn't it just be common sense - common decency - to err on the side of caution - the side of life?

That's the point I've been trying to make. That's why I've asked Civil Liberty that same question like half a dozen times in this thread alone. And, that's the reason he hasn't answered me - he's basically full of shit.

I agree Musicman ,
It is the year 2005 , the variety of protection from accidental pregnancy is a great deal larger than the days when I was a kid . The diseases are a lot more deadly now too , there seems to be more reasons than ever to wait .
I have never seen any research having to do with the electrical charge in a fetus ever , it would be interesting to find that out . With the advances in photography within the womb there really is no doubt that what we see is a little human being that even shows emotions . The color 3D shots are amazing , I don't see how anyone could murder what I have seen in those pictures , and I don't and probably never will have any kids . I do have some great nieces and nephews that I wouldn't want to do without .
I do wish that parents would be better about taking the responsibility to teach their kids about sex , and early . My girlfriend and I had lost our virginity a year before my Dad sort of got around to talking about it with me . I remember the horror of discovering first hand what effects vasoline had on condoms .

 

[Bonnie]

That's a damn good question, sitarro. My honest answer is that I don't know - and I'll go out on a limb and say no one else knows either. Since no one really knows - and since the stakes are as high as stakes get (life and death), wouldn't it just be common sense - common decency - to err on the side of caution - the side of life?

Yes! And most importantly being a "civilized" (term used loosley) society we are supposed to on a very basic primal level protect all living things especially human living things.

Im amazed at the lengths people will go to protect trees in the Rainforest, or forests in logging towns, and at the same time treat babies like discarded socks............

 

[Gem]

Manu wrote:

i think the argument is...that a women should be able to do with her body as she sees fit...men have made the rules about everything long enough...women get to decide this one...and women get to live with their decsion...i really don't think this is a government issue...but what the f do i know i have an outty not an inny

Manu, while I respect your opinion that this is a realm that should be left up to women, I wonder if the pro-abortion women in the US would agree with you.

Watching the news the other day, during the "birthday" of Roe v. Wade, the reporter stated that the latest polls show that while the "pro-choice v. pro-life" argument is split about 50/50...that when one examines the numbers more carefully, they see that almost 95% of people favor much stricter restrictions on abortions such as 1) none past the first trimester, 2) only in the cases of rape, incest, and life of mother

Would you still support what the ladies want if the ladies voted to restrict abortion to only cases of the life of the mother? Would the pro-choice movement agree to such an arrangement? Could we vote on it and then let what happens be the end of it in the political arena?

 

[manu1959]

Manu wrote:


Manu, while I respect your opinion that this is a realm that should be left up to women, I wonder if the pro-abortion women in the US would agree with you.

Watching the news the other day, during the "birthday" of Roe v. Wade, the reporter stated that the latest polls show that while the "pro-choice v. pro-life" argument is split about 50/50...that when one examines the numbers more carefully, they see that almost 95% of people favor much stricter restrictions on abortions such as 1) none past the first trimester, 2) only in the cases of rape, incest, and life of mother

Would you still support what the ladies want if the ladies voted to restrict abortion to only cases of the life of the mother? Would the pro-choice movement agree to such an arrangement? Could we vote on it and then let what happens be the end of it in the political arena?

i belive that women should decide ..... not the government ... the fact is neither side will ever agree ... there will always be a group that says no abortion for any reason ... and another group that says my body my choice ... at the moment the gov't says nothing after the first trimester except in the case of sepcial cirumstance ... the whole thing is a no win for half the people

 

[sitarro]

and another group that says my body my choice ... at the moment the gov't says nothing after the first trimester except in the case of sepcial cirumstance ... the whole thing is a no win for half the people

And definitely a no win for babies that get sucked out of the wombs of that half that feels it is their right to take no responsibility for their actions. And for that lack of responsibility they get to live with the fact for the rest of their life that they murdered their own child . No amount of justification helps in the end if they have any heart at all . I have watched women I know cry everyday over putting their child up for adoption , and I have seen them wallow in an alcoholic state for years over regrets from abortions . There are no easy solutions , if you are going to have sex , you take the chance of heartache , disease , unwanted pregnancy or all of these together. . . it is not something to take lightly .

 

[Bonnie]

First the Pro-Life side( all Liberals)

Robert Casey
"In short, our response as a party should be to work to solve the crisis that produces crisis pregnancies, and work to make life worth living for mother and child, rather than victimize the child as a way of dealing with this crisis. I am convinced this approach, a mainstream Democratic approach, commands the strong support of the American people, and presents a sharp and compassionate solution".


Mike Cummings
"that is the real mission of liberalism: to provide for and to protect the least and most defenseless of God's creatures, not eliminate them."

Carl Estabrook
If the Left continues to draw out the implication of it's principals, it will discover the marginalization of the unborn and unwanted as for example it discovered the marginalization of women in the first and second waves of feminism in the 19th and 20th centuries. and it's reasonalbe to suspect that the discovery will take as long and involves as many contradictions as that concerning women did--and does." from Abortion and the Left

Tony Hall
"The moral test of government, Hubert Humphrey said, is how that government treats those that are in the dwan of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick." Speech before the 1996 Democratic National Convention.

Kevin Kelly
"I think considering the fetus a human being would keep our definitions of "human' wide. We would be less likely to narrow our acceptance of who is human, to cast away those not formed like us. As it is, we find it particularly tempting to eliminate those who don't meet our specifications (white, extra bright, no defects) while they are voiceless and unseen, whereas once they are born we are obliged to accept and adapt to their otherness. Imagine a world where the mishapened were not permitted to live, where everyone was "normal.' That's the opposite of a place where the fetus is treated as a human being."

Marilyn Dickstein Kopp
"Like the death penalty and military aggression, abortion reflects society's tendency to solve problems by disposing of those who present problems. Giving voice to the voiceless--not exerting lethal control over them--always has been a priority of the left." Opinion piece from a Pro-Life Feminist.

Mary Meehan
"The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, agianst the wrong people." From Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life.

Now some from the pro-choice side:

:"You say kids should be allowed to be born to a bad environment, does that mean a woman can have one just to torture it? If I was forced to have one i would i would not be nice to it, maybe put it to bed with a plasctic bag and hpoe for the best or throw it in a trash can or maybe usr it use it as a pinata. but that would be much kinder than an abortion, huh"
Casey NJ spider-wd041.proxy.aol.com


"Not only do I think that there should be FAR more abortions performed, but I think that perents should have the option to euthanize their children bfore the age of 6 months. Life is cheap, food is expensive"

Hassan athenian.org


"The only good fetus is a dead fetus. Im all for late term abortions, pop it out and stomp on it for all i care. thank you for your time please email me"
Mark Black [email protected]


"Don't even suggest that there is ANY comparison between the violence wrought by pro-choice activists and the violence wrought by the anti-abortionists. You people have cause INFINATELY more violence. Moreover, the fundamental drive of your violence is the aggressor. Ours is not. Those of the pro-choice views commit violence because they feel that their human rights and freedoms are threatened by your cause."
Chuck Duck [email protected]

"If I could push a button and KILL everysingle antichoice person on the planet or even the galaxy, Id do it in an instant without ANY hesitation, and enjoy watching them die in horrible torturous pain!! And if I could kill just ONE of them and get away with it, Id do it!!! People agianst human rights mus thave their own removed cardioligically!!"
Steve Walz [email protected]


"I hate to point this out to you, but: Infanticide is a perfectly REASONABLE choice in certain circumstances"
Chris Owens

"Many of us consider an abortion no more important than a bad cold"
[email protected]


Regarding Mother Theresa
"Im delighted the old bag is dead. Princess D is wonderful. Ma T was a monster. Selfish stupid, and a thief. The blood of many babies is on her hands poisoned by dirty needles. she stole money and probably financed the bombing of abortion clinic. Her grave should be a urinal for dogs."
Arthur B waugh [email protected]

"Personally I don't care about a child until some point after birth. I'd say abortion up to and including birth would be quite OK"
[email protected]

Thouhg I have not fulfilled my goal of performing late term abortions on demand and offering incentives for women to do so, I have since set more realistic goals in it's place. Two days of every week, I volunteer my time and services to a local area abortion clinic in an adminsitrative position, as well as coordinating appointments and at times escroting women inside who are terrified by the antichoice crosshugger movement. As of yet I have had onlyclashes with your kind,as the clinic in my area may only get protestors a few timea year.
Until next time. If I manage to terminate Jesus in his fetal form, I will party first and inform you afterwards. One must have priorities. Luv ya'
Krimson Wrane PGP KeyID: 0x4B780551

"And what if a 23 week old fetus accidentially survived an abortion attempt (as has happened) and is noe outside the womb BORN and unwanted and in front of you-wouldl you extend your hand to kill or help"?
[email protected]

"Agreed. Abortion kills (or snuffs out", to be more fanciful) a human life. why is this wrong?'
[email protected]

And while I know this is not demonstrative of every pro-choice person, I would ask that all those that say the pro-life movement is made up of many extremeists, I say read this a few times!! Then compare the two marches in Washington DC both pro-life and pro-choice, and the content of the speeches of both and tell me which side was more peaceful, classy, and reasoned!!!!

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Not any more "crash and burn" that some of the arguments I've heard here that were anti abortion. The intent of what I said is that the embryo or fetus shares the life functions of the mother - in that way thhey are toed together as one.


A

Hey CivilLib, I DARE you to say "BABY" instead of "fetus". I dare you.

I'd be very careful about using diminutive PC words to dumb down the idea of life. You know what??? You were one once.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Obtuse is taking one statement "Most surgical abortions occur after 40 days" (40 days is in the first Trimester) and turning it into "Most abortions occur after the second Trimester" (Which I NEVER stated) then attempting to use the statement in an argument EVEN AFTER YOU WERE CORRECTED.

Liar. I pointed out that 80 percent of abortions happen in the FIRST trimester.

You claimed that "almost all abortions take place in the second trimester".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=233826&highlight=second#post233826


Regards,


Andy

 

[CivilLiberty]

medical science has kept baby's alive that are born as many as 6 months prior to term...and mom's that are kept alive by machines so they can give birth...so that would be a lead zeplin argument you have there

You're claim that a fetus was delivered at 3 months, and lived sound specious to me. And I can find no record of such an incredible claim.

Please cite.


A

 

[CivilLiberty]

Andy,
To continue, the fetus does not "share life functions" with its mother...it lives within its mother, a seperate life, that is dependent upon its mother for providing nutrition and environment.

It shares the mothers life functions through the placenta. The mother is responsible both for oxygenating the blood and providing protein and carbohydrates, as well as eliminating the waste of the embryo. The mother is responsible for regulating the embryonic hormones though the placenta.

The embryo/fetus places significant new load on the woman's life functions because it is sharing them through the placenta.

The baby at a very early stage has its own heartbeat, its own bloodflow, its own brain functions...it moves without its mother moving, sleeps when its mother is awake, produces waste and gets rid of it without the mother doing the same...its an organism feeding off of the nutrients its host provides, living in the habitable environment the hosts body provides, but it is certainly not the same as the host.

I didn't say it was the same as the host, did I?

Sigh, Andy...its a terrible argument...

You took what I said out of context.

A challenge for you: You obviously feel very strongly about supporting a woman's right to abortion...tell me why without arguing that a baby is not a person with less rights than another person because they aren't as developed.

Huh? A zygote, blastocycst, or embryo is not a person, period. No other justification is needed.

 

[CivilLiberty]

And while I know this is not demonstrative of every pro-choice person, I would ask that all those that say the pro-life movement is made up of many extremeists, I say read this a few times!! Then compare the two marches in Washington DC both pro-life and pro-choice, and the content of the speeches of both and tell me which side was more peaceful, classy, and reasoned!!!!

Not sure what this proves Bonnie. It is the radical anti-abortionists that are torching clinics and murdering doctors.

Can you cite from pro-choice groups that have gone out and burned churches and murdered reverends in the name of choice?




Regards,


Andy

 

[musicman]

Huh? A zygote, blastocycst, or embryo is not a person, period. No other justification is needed.

At what precise moment does the zygote, blastocyst, or embryo attain personhood?

You can't answer that, can you?

 

[dilloduck]

Not sure what this proves Bonnie. It is the radical anti-abortionists that are torching clinics and murdering doctors.

Can you cite from pro-choice groups that have gone out and burned churches and murdered reverends in the name of choice?




Regards,


Andy

Thus far pro-choice groups are happy to just kill babies because it is legal--it is yet to be determined how they would react if they didn't get their way.

 

[MtnBiker]

At what precise moment does the zygote, blastocyst, or embryo attain personhood?

You can't answer that, can you?

Also what excatly are the natural intended purposes for a zygote, blastocyst, or embryo if not to bring life into the world?

 

[musicman]

Also what excatly are the natural intended purposes for a zygote, blastocyst, or embryo if not to bring life into the world?

To inconvenience hedonists, apparently.

 

[Gem]

Andy Wrote:

This obvious truth makes it clear that the embryo or fetus is just a part of the woman, and not a separate being.

Then He Wrote:

I didn't say it was the same as the host, did I?

Hmmm......


Sorry Andy, but you have done this sort of thing several times here...first it was about the size of the baby/fetus/blob of tissue, then size had nothing to do with it, it was all about brain waves... When someone demonstrated how early on a baby/fetus/blob of tissue had brain waves, and how we keep humans alive out of respect for their life even when their brain functions are less than that of an unborn child...it wasn't about brainwaves it was about viability...then it went back to size...then an enigmatic discussion of personhood...then you started on the ridiculous notion that because a baby/fetus/blob of tissue is sustained in the womb feeding off of its mother from the umbilical cord (inside) rather than the breast (outside) it was PART OF THE MOTHER, rather than a seperate being living off of the sustinence of its host...then when that point was shown to be ludicrous all of a sudden you are denying that you ever said that.

At this point, I am trying to decide whether you are strongly pro-choice, but aren't used to having to defend your position yet...or if you're just here to amuse yourself by making stupid arguments, laughing at people trying to debate them with you, and then pretending that you never made the arguments because its amusing to watch us deal with that.

If the latter is your goal, bravo...you've managed to stump me...I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to accomplish by consistently making then denying your own points...if you truly are trying to explain yourself, however...keep working on it, you're interesting to read, but your points could use some work (and would probably be helped immensely by you not sabotauging them!)

 

[manu1959]

hey gem,

Hi....pro life or pro choice?

care to discuss? you had good comments the other day

 

[musicman]

Gem:

I'm glad we're pretty generally in agreement - I'd hate like hell to have to tangle with you!

 

[Gem]

Musicman,

Aw, I'm harmless. Actually, my husband scolds me occasionally for my tone on message boards, which always seems to come off as more condescending as I mean it to be. In person, I'm very sarcastic, but very nice...and I think in written form my sarcasm looks meaner than I really am. However, the things I write are the things I would say, so while I occassionally try to tone down things that could be misunderstood as condescention...usually I just say, "Hey, its a messageboard...I hope that they understand, but I'm not going to try to candy-coat everything." (That sounded condescending again, didn't it?!?!)

Manu,

I'm both really. I don't think the answer is forbiding abortions altogether, nor do I think the answer is abortions-on-demand.