Jesus the Socialist

[emilynghiem]

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

 

[emilynghiem]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

Every religion was made up at some point and none of the memes are even original. Do you know how many dieties had affairs with mortals and produced illegitimate offspring with supernatural powers?

Coyote and what about the good things that all religions seek to represent?

Do you know that all major religions have a version of the Golden Rule of reciprocity?

It is a common universal law that people attract what we give to others. Some call this cause and effect or karma. Others justice or reaping what we sow, what comes around goes around. Others the law of attraction. I've heard business mentors teach it as scarcity mentality attracting victimhood and poverty, while abundance mentality attracts wealth and success.

This concept is taught by both religious and nontheistic secular people trying to help others to improve themselves, their relations and lives, and society.

Are you okay with religions being used to organize and teach people in groups, so we can work out a learning curve toward peace justice and good will for all in society?

 

[emilynghiem]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

There is no effort anyone can do to get to heaven. It's like flapping your arms to get to the moon.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Dear Weatherman2020
Yes and no.
Forgiveness is the key step in anyone getting to heavenly peace and the Kingdom of God.

And yes it takes a great effort to decide to ask for help to forgive what we cannot on our own.

The Bible makes it clear that if we give comfort even a cup of water to one Child of God who comes in the name of Jesus, then we receive Jesus.
And whoever receives Jesus receives the Father.

So when we show charity to others, when we forgive whatever circumstances might otherwise cause rejection, and instead we show mercy and inclusion, this is building the Kingdom of God.

you are right that it is NOT about "external works" it is NOT the external appearance of doing good that saves us per se.

What saves us is what is going on INTERNALLY and then the physical good we do emanates and manifests from that.

So in the case of giving comfort to a child of God, it is the loving grace shared between the people that saves humanity. it isn't the cup of water.

 

[Andylusion]

Welfare is superior to charity in that it allows the recipient to retain some dignity.

We are entitled to welfare because we have paid our taxes. It is there for all of us and is a right.

1. The argument is that people like those committing crimes that get them stuck in prison at 50K a year (and then can't work but end up on welfare after that) are costing taxpayers who are working and paying in.

Tommy Tainant if we who pay taxes are getting the welfare we are entitled to, then why are people in prison getting their health care and housing paid for by taxes, while people who don't commit crimes are fined for not paying ADDITIONAL money for insurance?

Why isn't our health care already paid for if we are paying 50K a year for each person in prison?

Are you sure these people are paying for what they are getting?

2. what allows DIGNITY is free choice and CONSENT.

so Tommy Tainant if you CONSENT to pay for welfare through govt, then you see this as dignified. If someone consents to receive welfare this way, they may see it as dignified.

Can you speak for yourself and not assume you speak for others who DON'T consent to keep paying for others while not getting their benefits paid for?

one of my friends, a lifelong Democrat who votes straight D tickets without exception, HATES having to go through the county hospital system and beg for appts at the mercy of govt.

he would LOVE I mean LOVE to have the benefits that people in govt have that is paid for by taxpayers.

His question is why are we paying for officials to have top health care, while they don't give us jack and we are expected to pay higher rates or else be fined?

Where is the dignity in taxation without representation?

Clearly Tommy Tainant if you believe this represents you and give you a sense of dignity and security, GREAT!

But what about other people?

I have felt like a SLAVE trying to pay the costs of govt, not just the damage done to my neighborhood by govt abuses that nonprofit volunteers had to repair ourselves, but to add the health care insurance mandates ON TOP of what I am already covering was the straw that broke the camel's back.

If you consent to this, that is your choice,

What makes you think you have the right to dictate that for someone else?

You need to focus your thoughts as this just reads as a whinge about taxation.

If you just dont want to help the poor then say so.

For myself I would rather help my neighbour to feed his kids than bomb Syrian hospitals.

What would Jesus prefer ?

I think Jesus would prefer people not misquote him, and take his teachings out of context, to fit a left-wing agenda.

 

[emilynghiem]

Welfare is superior to charity in that it allows the recipient to retain some dignity.

We are entitled to welfare because we have paid our taxes. It is there for all of us and is a right.

1. The argument is that people like those committing crimes that get them stuck in prison at 50K a year (and then can't work but end up on welfare after that) are costing taxpayers who are working and paying in.

Tommy Tainant if we who pay taxes are getting the welfare we are entitled to, then why are people in prison getting their health care and housing paid for by taxes, while people who don't commit crimes are fined for not paying ADDITIONAL money for insurance?

Why isn't our health care already paid for if we are paying 50K a year for each person in prison?

Are you sure these people are paying for what they are getting?

2. what allows DIGNITY is free choice and CONSENT.

so Tommy Tainant if you CONSENT to pay for welfare through govt, then you see this as dignified. If someone consents to receive welfare this way, they may see it as dignified.

Can you speak for yourself and not assume you speak for others who DON'T consent to keep paying for others while not getting their benefits paid for?

one of my friends, a lifelong Democrat who votes straight D tickets without exception, HATES having to go through the county hospital system and beg for appts at the mercy of govt.

he would LOVE I mean LOVE to have the benefits that people in govt have that is paid for by taxpayers.

His question is why are we paying for officials to have top health care, while they don't give us jack and we are expected to pay higher rates or else be fined?

Where is the dignity in taxation without representation?

Clearly Tommy Tainant if you believe this represents you and give you a sense of dignity and security, GREAT!

But what about other people?

I have felt like a SLAVE trying to pay the costs of govt, not just the damage done to my neighborhood by govt abuses that nonprofit volunteers had to repair ourselves, but to add the health care insurance mandates ON TOP of what I am already covering was the straw that broke the camel's back.

If you consent to this, that is your choice,

What makes you think you have the right to dictate that for someone else?

You need to focus your thoughts as this just reads as a whinge about taxation.

If you just dont want to help the poor then say so.

For myself I would rather help my neighbour to feed his kids than bomb Syrian hospitals.

What would Jesus prefer ?

I think Jesus would prefer people not misquote him, and take his teachings out of context, to fit a left-wing agenda.

Thanks for your posts Andylusion that I agree with in spirit as on the side of right.

as for Jesus, I think he forgives the mistakes people make in misquoting and misinterpreting, because we need to use our free speech to learn by sharing.

Especially if leftwing people blame the right, they might need to make the same mistakes they blame others for, in order for the shoe to be on the other foot. When we realize we are no more or less "hypocritical" than anyone else, maybe we will see we are equal, even if relatively speaking.

We all fall short of living by the principles we most want to enforce, and are all in need of forgiving our faults if we are going to make the most of our strengths and good intentions that we all have to offer society.

 

[emilynghiem]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

Hi Weatherman2020
Even if Coyote makes up and follows a personal version of religion or ethics/principles,
NONE OF US makes up the rules of how humans in general operate as social/spiritual beings, individually and collectively, in relationship with each other.

NONE OF US invented the concept of wanting peace justice freedom and truth.

Whatever you call these concepts in life that all people want, we discover and follow the same rules we didn't make up any more than we invented human nature and conscience.

We didn't invent the rules of justice, we are trying to figure out how to write them down and enforce them consistently where we can have peace and order in society.

Coyote seems to be questioning and work things out rationally, which is the way secular gentiles come to understanding of natural laws that govern humanity. What other way do you expect people to learn what works and what doesn't, except by comparing notes and trying to understand a common language for these concepts and principles?

Of course people are going to come up with "their own language" for these things!

I have a humanist friend who calls his system respect for Truth, respect for Freedom, and respect for People and the Environment. And I told him that is reconcilable and parallel with the trinity in Christianity. We work on a local physical level of the people/environment on earth, we seek higher truth and justice on a collective level, and we try to define laws and relationships between the individual and collective levels so we can have peace and harmony. No problem!

What is wrong with secular minded people (who God created to be this way, to be the secular Gentiles under natural laws as the second fold of the same flock under Jesus) using secular natural laws and terms to describe the same process of Peace and Justice that Jesus Christ Represents?

Isn't that to be expected of people God created to think in nontheistic terms?

 

[emilynghiem]

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

 

[koshergrl]

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

 

[emilynghiem]

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

And the same unconditional grace is extended to you and me, where plenty of people would think we don't deserve it either!

Hugs to you koshergrl

At least Coyote is trying to answer with logical retorts and reasons, explaining where the conflict is. That is perfectly workable with to reach an understanding. At least it is not personal insults that stray off topic. Even Tommy Tainant who started this thread is not doing as well as Coyote who is closer to getting it. In truth, there is no conflict between the Christian message and laws and the normal ethical/moral values of secular gentiles under natural laws. When we talk about what values we believe in, these are going to come out the same whether we use Christianity to express them or we use secular terms. Coyote seems more forgiving and workable with, than even TT, who seems more bent on accusing and blaming the right as the motive. Whoever is more forgiving is going to resolve the issues more. We aren't going to change our views, but we may change our perceptions of how much they actually agree in content!

 

[Votto]

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

No. How many good deeds would it take to atone for a murder?

That is stupid shit. No amount of good works can atone for it.

On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense.

All religions, other than Christianity, cause people to do good works in order to earn their way to heaven, hoping their good outweighs the bad.

That is stupid shit.

Dear Votto we are closing to agreeing than you might think.

I agree with your point here:
"On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense."

What Christianity teaches is that once someone has this change of heart, then it is multiplied.

This tiny seed of faith blooms into a huge tree.

Christianity focuses on the key step that the internal change is what precedes the good coming from that change.

If we only judge people by what good is done on the outside, then people can be purely greedy inside, such as "offering to help women" but really trafficking them and enslaving them, but the only thing people see on the surface is these people are giving them food and shelter and "appearing" to keep them out of poverty.

That is an extreme example, but I am using it as "parable" that the point is if you really do things with the right intent INSIDE that is the key. The good that follows naturally is a CONSEQUENCE of that good intent, and it is not the physical works alone that is used to "judge if someone is right by God or saved or not." Or else we would be competing to do things materially, like "buying votes by giving out welfare" (another extreme example, not literal, but used as a metaphor).

What about the parent who punishes their child by depriving them of privileges because they did something wrong, such as lie about going out with friends when they went out with someone the parents weren't told about, and they are being grounded. If you saw this only in terms of who is giving and being nice, versus who is being mean and refusing to give, you would judge it wrong. The intent is to teach the kid to stick to the rules for their own safety, if they want to earn their privileges in being trusted to go out with friends.

so this is another example of why you don't just judge based on what things may appear to be externally, but look at the HEART of the matter and make sure that is consistent with what is true and just and good for people and the relationship.

The POINT in Christianity in "not relying on works" is not to JUDGE people by external works alone: to judge not but judge "righteous judgment."

It does NOT mean to ignore works, but to address the internal intent so that the physical works FOLLOW from that. Is this more clear?

I think an easier way to say it is that a good tree gives good fruit and a bad tree does not.

The key is being the good tree.

 

[koshergrl]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

Every religion was made up at some point and none of the memes are even original. Do you know how many dieties had affairs with mortals and produced illegitimate offspring with supernatural powers?

What is that relevant to?

Oh, right. Nothing.

 

[emilynghiem]

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

No. How many good deeds would it take to atone for a murder?

That is stupid shit. No amount of good works can atone for it.

On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense.

All religions, other than Christianity, cause people to do good works in order to earn their way to heaven, hoping their good outweighs the bad.

That is stupid shit.

Dear Votto we are closing to agreeing than you might think.

I agree with your point here:
"On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense."

What Christianity teaches is that once someone has this change of heart, then it is multiplied.

This tiny seed of faith blooms into a huge tree.

Christianity focuses on the key step that the internal change is what precedes the good coming from that change.

If we only judge people by what good is done on the outside, then people can be purely greedy inside, such as "offering to help women" but really trafficking them and enslaving them, but the only thing people see on the surface is these people are giving them food and shelter and "appearing" to keep them out of poverty.

That is an extreme example, but I am using it as "parable" that the point is if you really do things with the right intent INSIDE that is the key. The good that follows naturally is a CONSEQUENCE of that good intent, and it is not the physical works alone that is used to "judge if someone is right by God or saved or not." Or else we would be competing to do things materially, like "buying votes by giving out welfare" (another extreme example, not literal, but used as a metaphor).

What about the parent who punishes their child by depriving them of privileges because they did something wrong, such as lie about going out with friends when they went out with someone the parents weren't told about, and they are being grounded. If you saw this only in terms of who is giving and being nice, versus who is being mean and refusing to give, you would judge it wrong. The intent is to teach the kid to stick to the rules for their own safety, if they want to earn their privileges in being trusted to go out with friends.

so this is another example of why you don't just judge based on what things may appear to be externally, but look at the HEART of the matter and make sure that is consistent with what is true and just and good for people and the relationship.

The POINT in Christianity in "not relying on works" is not to JUDGE people by external works alone: to judge not but judge "righteous judgment."

It does NOT mean to ignore works, but to address the internal intent so that the physical works FOLLOW from that. Is this more clear?

I think an easier way to say it is that a good tree gives good fruit and a bad tree does not.

The key is being the good tree.

Dear Votto
Sure that's one way of saying it isn't the bad fruit that is the cause of bad
or the good fruit that is causing the good, and just judging by that.
But to look at the root cause, and can we fix things on that level
so that all the fruit comes out good.

However, if we start down the same path of
"judging good trees from bad trees by appearance"
then we are back in the same boat.

What I find makes the difference with true believers
including Christians but not limited to that
is that they see the trees/people as being inherently good,
and whatever is causing the ill or bad behavior or results
is something that can be cured instead of judging and throwing out the whole person!

It is "material' or superficial to judge people as 'good or bad' and stopping there.
Rejecting/Punishing people for doing bad and expect that to be enough.
Rewarding "only those who do good" to the point of neglecting
how to help people who aren't doing so good.

What makes believers in Restorative Justice different
is focusing on how to correct what is gone wrong or bad
and redeem/restore the relationship so that people can succeed at
recovery rehabilitation and restitution.

So yes we still judge what is bad and what is good.
But it is not to condemn reject and punish the person
so much as to identify the cause of ill, correct and prevent it so that everyone benefits in the longrun.

 

[emilynghiem]

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

And the same unconditional grace is extended to you and me, where plenty of people would think we don't deserve it either!

Hugs to you koshergrl

At least Coyote is trying to answer with logical retorts and reasons, explaining where the conflict is. That is perfectly workable with to reach an understanding. At least it is not personal insults that stray off topic. Even Tommy Tainant who started this thread is not doing as well as Coyote who is closer to getting it. In truth, there is no conflict between the Christian message and laws and the normal ethical/moral values of secular gentiles under natural laws. When we talk about what values we believe in, these are going to come out the same whether we use Christianity to express them or we use secular terms. Coyote seems more forgiving and workable with, than even TT, who seems more bent on accusing and blaming the right as the motive. Whoever is more forgiving is going to resolve the issues more. We aren't going to change our views, but we may change our perceptions of how much they actually agree in content!

Coyote isn't going to get it, dear.

Whatever Coyote gets out of these interactions,
sure, it may not be anything we thought.

And neither do you or I get what we thought we were going to get either
by the time we finish these discussions. I usually find people get more
than what they thought, and it is rarely the answers we expected!

Why not continue exploring and explaining what each of us
"thinks" things mean in Christianity, or don't mean, and see where this goes?
What are the objections or problems, and how do we resolve them?

koshergrl

At the very least we'll find out what isn't being communicated
and maybe learn how to explain things better, and find what are the common goals.
People don't have to believe the better answers. They can keep thinking the worst,
and stick to just thinking negative of each other,
but at least we can try to clarify and give people that choice.

We can either AGREE that we all share higher goals than what we see going on in society,
and could AGREE that the ideals taught in religion are SUPPOSED to be
the good goals, and not the hypocrisy and abuses going on.

Or we can keep going with arguing for against the supposition that Christianity
is teaching messed up things, Christians are hypocrites
and only following and pushing religion for all the wrong reasons,
and anyone defending or attacking Christianity is the problem.

I think what Coyote (and also Tommy Tainant)
are capable of is understanding that the good ideals that Christianity is supposed to represent and teach
can best be achieved by CORRECTING the wrongs
instead of just attacking people for hypocrisy or false teachings about Christianity.
How is that going to help?

If the best way to correct abuses in Christianity is for Christians to correct their fellow members,
then we should be SUPPORTING the Christians doing things right, and help them to correct the wrongs.
not attacking all members of that group as if they are all messed up and need to be thrown out!

Can we start from there?
Start from what we agree should be the principles to enforce for humanity sake,
and then discuss how to correct the abuses that stray from these good ideals?

 

[koshergrl]

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

And the same unconditional grace is extended to you and me, where plenty of people would think we don't deserve it either!

Hugs to you koshergrl

At least Coyote is trying to answer with logical retorts and reasons, explaining where the conflict is. That is perfectly workable with to reach an understanding. At least it is not personal insults that stray off topic. Even Tommy Tainant who started this thread is not doing as well as Coyote who is closer to getting it. In truth, there is no conflict between the Christian message and laws and the normal ethical/moral values of secular gentiles under natural laws. When we talk about what values we believe in, these are going to come out the same whether we use Christianity to express them or we use secular terms. Coyote seems more forgiving and workable with, than even TT, who seems more bent on accusing and blaming the right as the motive. Whoever is more forgiving is going to resolve the issues more. We aren't going to change our views, but we may change our perceptions of how much they actually agree in content!

Coyote isn't going to get it, dear.

Whatever Coyote gets out of these interactions,
sure, it may not be anything we thought.

And neither do you or I get what we thought we were going to get either
by the time we finish these discussions. I usually find people get more
than what they thought, and it is rarely the answers we expected!

Why not continue exploring and explaining what each of us
"thinks" things mean in Christianity, or don't mean, and see where this goes?
What are the objections or problems, and how do we resolve them?

koshergrl

At the very least we'll find out what isn't being communicated
and maybe learn how to explain things better, and find what are the common goals.
People don't have to believe the better answers. They can keep thinking the worst,
and stick to just thinking negative of each other,
but at least we can try to clarify and give people that choice.

We can either AGREE that we all share higher goals than what we see going on in society,
and could AGREE that the ideals taught in religion are SUPPOSED to be
the good goals, and not the hypocrisy and abuses going on.

Or we can keep going with arguing for against the supposition that Christianity
is teaching messed up things, Christians are hypocrites
and only following and pushing religion for all the wrong reasons,
and anyone defending or attacking Christianity is the problem.

I think what Coyote (and also Tommy Tainant)
are capable of is understanding that the good ideals that Christianity is supposed to represent and teach
can best be achieved by CORRECTING the wrongs
instead of just attacking people for hypocrisy or false teachings about Christianity.
How is that going to help?

If the best way to correct abuses in Christianity is for Christians to correct their fellow members,
then we should be SUPPORTING the Christians doing things right, and help them to correct the wrongs.
not attacking all members of that group as if they are all messed up and need to be thrown out!

Can we start from there?
Start from what we agree should be the principles to enforce for humanity sake,
and then discuss how to correct the abuses that stray from these good ideals?

They aren't capable, dear.

 

[yiostheoy]

This thread has now turned into a rant.

And none of you strikes me as very well informed about Jesus Himself nor about the New Testament.

You also sound like a bunch of little junior high school heathens and not very Christian.

It all goes to prove my theory of Theism being dead and that Deism is now the best hope for civilization rather than organized religion.

Carry on ... .

 

[Coyote]

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

And the same unconditional grace is extended to you and me, where plenty of people would think we don't deserve it either!

Hugs to you koshergrl

At least Coyote is trying to answer with logical retorts and reasons, explaining where the conflict is. That is perfectly workable with to reach an understanding. At least it is not personal insults that stray off topic. Even Tommy Tainant who started this thread is not doing as well as Coyote who is closer to getting it. In truth, there is no conflict between the Christian message and laws and the normal ethical/moral values of secular gentiles under natural laws. When we talk about what values we believe in, these are going to come out the same whether we use Christianity to express them or we use secular terms. Coyote seems more forgiving and workable with, than even TT, who seems more bent on accusing and blaming the right as the motive. Whoever is more forgiving is going to resolve the issues more. We aren't going to change our views, but we may change our perceptions of how much they actually agree in content!

I often see religion as a language...and we all use different languages to describe the sacred. The object is the same, but we don't know that.

 

[Coyote]

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

Well koshergrl you may see Coyote as 'swine and not worth your time'
but from Coyote's posts, questions and answers/comments I see someone who is thoughtful and asking for clarification, and open to receiving better understanding.

I don't see this as swine at all.

I think you are missing a diamond that is hidden inside coal. The conversation that is full of darkness and negativity is the coal, and the enlightening truth and wisdom we have to share is the diamond inside.

Can we keep cutting away at the coal, and see if we can chisel out a diamond here?
Who knows, we may find a trove of emeralds, rubies, all kinds of precious treasures even if we don't all get a diamond out of the deal. Even a pretty agate is lovely to me, I am happy to find anything positive, any idea or insight that helps us grow in our understanding, instead of the negative stuff we can leave behind in the process.

Even if we are cutting away at each other, to drop all the stuff that proves false and inconsistent with anything meaningful, why not see that process as good?

Love you emily. Despise coyote...would ignore her if I could. She's a waste of time. Christ could save her but not me and probably not you...but keep trying if it suits you. I've wasted enough time kn her nonsense and resent the fact that we are forced to treat her with a lot more consideration than she deserves.

I love the passion and authority you speak to these issues koshergrl
I just hate to see you suffer when your intent is for the best.

Yes, it will take the higher justice and grace in Christ to save us all, as we cannot do any of this by our own will or words. We can only share with love that opens up more hearts and minds, including our own, so that more of that higher love and understanding is received that is beyond even our own.

Please know that all the effort and love invested is rewarded proportionately koshergrl
The more grievousness we FORGIVE
the bigger the space we create for more love to fill in that gap.

so the more you think people like Coyote are hopeless, but likewise the more sacrifice it takes you to extend grace and faith and give it to God anyway, the more that pays off in the end. Just keep forgiving, so God's love and ways can intervene in that space.

If we don't forgive first, but our anger judgment or negative emotions get in the way, even God cannot enter where we do not ask but block the process with negativity we won't let go.

I continue to pray that we do give these things up and place them in God's hands.
The greater love and truth that God represents will carry us all, whether Jew or Gentile, theist or nontheist, Christian or nonchristian. We are all joined as one where we forgive and embrace each other and don't divide against ourselves. Christ gives us that where we ask.

Love, Emily

I'm pretty sure I already extended her more grace and faith than she deserves, lol.

...and I'm pretty sure I have no need for that which KG considers "grace" and "faith" - I've seen far more grace and faith in the eyes of my dogs as they explore their world.

Christ had the right message: Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as you would yourself.

 

[Coyote]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

Every religion was made up at some point and none of the memes are even original. Do you know how many dieties had affairs with mortals and produced illegitimate offspring with supernatural powers?

Coyote and what about the good things that all religions seek to represent?

Do you know that all major religions have a version of the Golden Rule of reciprocity?

It is a common universal law that people attract what we give to others. Some call this cause and effect or karma. Others justice or reaping what we sow, what comes around goes around. Others the law of attraction. I've heard business mentors teach it as scarcity mentality attracting victimhood and poverty, while abundance mentality attracts wealth and success.

This concept is taught by both religious and nontheistic secular people trying to help others to improve themselves, their relations and lives, and society.

Are you okay with religions being used to organize and teach people in groups, so we can work out a learning curve toward peace justice and good will for all in society?

Emily, I am frequently irreverent on religion, because I feel God endowed us with a sense of humor, and the means to use it...so I do even if I come off as insulting. I'm aware of the Golden Rule, and personally believe that all religions are different paths to the Sacred, or, maybe more fitting - different languages we developed to describe the Mysteries. It's like the blind men with the elephant...each understands only a part. I'm fine with religions being used to organize and teach people as you describe. I think that is we religion should aim for - we all have something to learn from the other, and we can all benefit from it.

 

[Coyote]

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

and we're none too sure about your "pearls" either....

But thanks for your contribution anyway

Leonard Cohen wrote a song Anthem, who's lyrics describe faith so well....

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in​

The light gets in through our flaws...and we're all flawed.

 

[koshergrl]

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

and we're none too sure about your "pearls" either....

But thanks for your contribution anyway

Leonard Cohen wrote a song Anthem, who's lyrics describe faith so well....

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in​

The light gets in through our flaws...and we're all flawed.

christ wasn't talking about my pearls. He was talking about the pearls of God, you sad lost fool.

I know about the imperfection of man. Unlike you, I don't believe that as imperfect as we are there is.still nothing better..I don't believe that since I am imperfect, perfection doesn't exist. That is the arrogant cop out of self centered.losers like you.