Jesus the Socialist

[Votto]

What we are given in the gospels is a message of hope. But what is that hope based upon? Is it based upon government or God?

In the Bible, we see charity to the poor as a Biblical standard of conduct. When someone gives money to the poor, the person giving the money is blessed with the gift of giving, and the person receiving the gift is given the gift of gratitude. Those giving in the name of Christ have the additional benefit of giving a testimony as to the good works Christ does in other peoples lives, motivating them to seek him as well.

However, when the state gives, it is entirely different. When you give a dollar to the poor, about a tenth of that dollar actually goes to the poor. The rest is government overhead. And there is no voluntary giving. All the money is mandated taxation, thus the gift of giving is a complete loss to the giver. Add to that fact, it is seen as a virtuous thing to try and get out of paying taxes in general. Then the person getting the money who is in need is robbed of the gift of gratitude. In fact, the opposite occurs. The person getting the money no longer sees it as an act of charity, rather, it is what is due them and what is being given in never enough.

The government nanny state is a perversion of the Biblical example of giving to the poor.

If you study those who give time and money to the poor, you will see that the vast majority are those who practice their faith. Left wingers, by in large, are atheists/agnostics who sit around on their fat ass (cough, Michael Moore) whining about the government needing to force them to give more to the poor through taxation.

Very telling.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Enlighten us

 

[koshergrl]

What we are given in the gospels is a message of hope. But what is that hope based upon? Is it based upon government or God?

In the Bible, we see charity to the poor as a Biblical standard of conduct. When someone gives money to the poor, the person giving the money is blessed with the gift of giving, and the person receiving the gift is given the gift of gratitude. Those giving in the name of Christ have the additional benefit of giving a testimony as to the good works Christ does in other peoples lives, motivating them to seek him as well.

However, when the state gives, it is entirely different. When you give a dollar to the poor, about a tenth of that dollar actually goes to the poor. The rest is government overhead. And there is no voluntary giving. All the money is mandated taxation, thus the gift of giving is a complete loss to the giver. Add to that fact, it is seen as a virtuous thing to try and get out of paying taxes in general. Then the person getting the money who is in need is robbed of the gift of gratitude. In fact, the opposite occurs. The person getting the money no longer sees it as an act of charity, rather, it is what is due them and what is being given in never enough.

The government nanny state is a perversion of the Biblical example of giving to the poor.

If you study those who give time and money to the poor, you will see that the vast majority are those who practice their faith. Left wingers, by in large, are atheists/agnostics who sit around on their fat ass (cough, Michael Moore) whining about the government needing to force them to give more to the poor through taxation.

Very telling.

actually the giving that christ encourages isnt specificAlly money for the poor....it is money for Him, and the disciples. The church.

 

[Coyote]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

 

[Weatherman2020]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

There is no effort anyone can do to get to heaven. It's like flapping your arms to get to the moon.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

 

[emilynghiem]

One thing is certain: if "Christians" functioned as "Christianity" and Jesus teach, the political movement Socialism represents would not be necessary.

Dear there4eyeM
Half of the problem is on the side of people REJECTING Christianity.
For example, Christians who offer FREE spiritual healing would have
already solved major problems with our mental health and criminal justice problems,
and now the hot button issue of mentally ill getting hold of guns for terrorist attacks.

Every time I have brought this up there4eyeM
I am met with SCOFFING SCORN AND RIDICULE.

I brought up MEDICAL RESEARCH to PROVE that patients with extreme debilitating
Schizophrenia and even criminal stalking obsessions involving "demonic voices"
HAVE and CAN be cured using these spiritual therapy for healing the root cause of sickness.

I have found maybe a handful of people willing to pursue this research seriously.
A handful.

The rest either block any such idea of researching a cure for mental illness caused by spiritual blockage,
or they want to do nothing but wait until it is proven to take any action in that direction at all.

In the meantime, I keep reading more stories of mentally ill people killing their own kids, raping shooting or
killing other people, etc.

Can you blame this on Christians who have TRIED and TRIED to share this spiritual healing?
The volunteers I know work CONSTANTLY helping everyone from cancer patients to
ex gang members. But still they aren't recognized without more medical proof of how this works.
Scott Peck wrote a book when he found out it worked, and asked for formal medical research to save lives.
Dr. Phillip Goldfedder, a licensed neurosurgeon, found out it worked and now uses it instead of surgery.
Dr. Francis and Judith MacNutt have a nonprofit healing outreach that has conducted medical research funded and published with the help of the Templeton Foundation to show the results on healing Rheumatoid Arthritis.

I brought that up to a friend who argued "if it was true then it would already be all over the place"

Not so, because of too many people BLOCKING this information from being promoted through the media.

Instead. only the horror stories of fraudulent "faith healing" get publicized where people die or kill others
by abusive practices that are the opposite of spiritual healing which is natural free effective and voluntary.

At this point there4eyeM
I thought of issuing a challenge to Putin of Russia (who is at least a man of God),
the Chinese govt who are running a 1.5 million organ transplant operation accused of using political prisoners to harvest organs, and the American people to see who will be first or last to pursue medical research
into spiritual healing as a method of saving lives at minimal cost.

Americans seem so bent on demonizing and discrediting anything to do with Christianity
they might come in LAST PLACE while Russia and China might figure it out first how to save
their mass populations by using these methods that are FREE.

Since Russian scientists are now in the lead with space exploration development,
maybe it's China's turn to come out with a scientific "discovery" that can save more
lives and medical resources to help more if not all of the population we can't reach using medicine alone.

Sorry to go off about this.
But lives are on the line that could be saved by these natural healing methods
that are ignored if not blocked from research because of stigmas about Christians,

Whose fault is that? Is it only the Christians to blame or the people rejecting them and censoring
lifesaving stories they mock because so many people become religious after they see proof of healing?

 

[emilynghiem]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Dear Coyote why is it either or? Why not the understanding how ALL people can be saved
because ALL people will eventually forgive and receive healing regardless of what point in the timeline?
If God is so great that God's will always prevails,
and it is NOT God's will that a single soul be lost,
doesn't it make sense that the process of salvation through Jesus as Justice for All
really means ALL humanity. And no matter what wars or hell we go through collectively,
we will collectively come to spiritual peace at the end.

Why would God create an "imperfect" salvation process that only saves some people
but not all people? isn't the meaning of perfect to be mature or whole, so that
as humanity as a whole reaches maturity that means everyone is included.

Why can't the EVIL be what burns away in the lake of fire,
meaning it leaves behind what is true and good which is everything created by God.
So if God created all souls in HIS image which is good wouldn't those remain
while the EVIL is burned away, forever.

Now it's not up to me to dictate the spiritual laws of the Universe/God.
But if the scriptures say that if two or three AGREE on anything that touches
the earth, if believers in Christ pray in AGREEMENT for God's will to be done,
can't we ask in Jesus name that ALL souls be saved in fulfilling God's will.
And know that God would not give us a stone if we ask for bread.
Would not give us half if we ask mercy for ALL humanity to be saved?

Do you think the sacrifice of Christ would be so great and complete if
it is only to save "some" people and not all of humanity?
What is the meaning of universal Messiah except it be saving grace for all humanity?

If we only ask for "some" people to be saved, maybe that's why we're only getting "some."
What if we all agreed to ask for ALL.

 

[emilynghiem]

Welfare is superior to charity in that it allows the recipient to retain some dignity.

We are entitled to welfare because we have paid our taxes. It is there for all of us and is a right.

1. The argument is that people like those committing crimes that get them stuck in prison at 50K a year (and then can't work but end up on welfare after that) are costing taxpayers who are working and paying in.

Tommy Tainant if we who pay taxes are getting the welfare we are entitled to, then why are people in prison getting their health care and housing paid for by taxes, while people who don't commit crimes are fined for not paying ADDITIONAL money for insurance?

Why isn't our health care already paid for if we are paying 50K a year for each person in prison?

Are you sure these people are paying for what they are getting?

2. what allows DIGNITY is free choice and CONSENT.

so Tommy Tainant if you CONSENT to pay for welfare through govt, then you see this as dignified. If someone consents to receive welfare this way, they may see it as dignified.

Can you speak for yourself and not assume you speak for others who DON'T consent to keep paying for others while not getting their benefits paid for?

one of my friends, a lifelong Democrat who votes straight D tickets without exception, HATES having to go through the county hospital system and beg for appts at the mercy of govt.

he would LOVE I mean LOVE to have the benefits that people in govt have that is paid for by taxpayers.

His question is why are we paying for officials to have top health care, while they don't give us jack and we are expected to pay higher rates or else be fined?

Where is the dignity in taxation without representation?

Clearly Tommy Tainant if you believe this represents you and give you a sense of dignity and security, GREAT!

But what about other people?

I have felt like a SLAVE trying to pay the costs of govt, not just the damage done to my neighborhood by govt abuses that nonprofit volunteers had to repair ourselves, but to add the health care insurance mandates ON TOP of what I am already covering was the straw that broke the camel's back.

If you consent to this, that is your choice,

What makes you think you have the right to dictate that for someone else?

You need to focus your thoughts as this just reads as a whinge about taxation.

If you just dont want to help the poor then say so.

For myself I would rather help my neighbour to feed his kids than bomb Syrian hospitals.

What would Jesus prefer ?

Dear Tommy Tainant
How totally insulting!

I have been "helping the poor" with my own income, working two jobs while millions of dollars of taxes that was SUPPOSED to be invested in the historic landmark district went INSTEAD to corporate developer buddies of elected officials more worried about catering to those interests to keep their offices. This really is happening in Freedmen's Town. You can ask the people I'm helping, including the other community leader also working 2-3 jobs while everyone else waits on govt grants that keep going elsewhere. She has the same questions I do: why are we working 2 jobs to pay for the damage done to the community by govt abuse of taxpayer money, while no money is going in to restoring the historic district? why is all the "govt welfare" going to keeping people in poverty and no money coming in to invest in business plans to create a campus to train people how to manage the district sustainably where it doesn't depend on welfare?

Do you want to discuss and debate that?

1. Is the issue about you or me, personally, how much you yourself have paid into charity while you gripe that others are not? VS. how much I have paid, which is over 60,000 in credit that I used to help several nonprofit groups doing the work in communities that were destroyed by govt abuses using taxpayers money to do this. Because govt not only FAILED to help these nonprofits that were supporting their communities, but actively ABUSED authority and resources to shut them down, kick them out and censor their educational plans, there is even greater debt and damage "thanks to depending on govt" instead of funding the nonprofits that were doing all the work to help the poor get educated and out of poverty. These groups were punished for being independent, and instead tax money went to developers to take over the districts to kick out the poor people trying to save their own communities as campuses they could manage themselves.

2. Do you want to discuss whether 'govt welfare' is DIGNIFIED.

You were saying it was dignified.
While others are saying it is ABUSE of govt to manage "social programs and charity" better managed by community groups getting that money, which counsel people to get out of poverty, instead of paying govt which wastes it by not helping people out of poverty.

Which are YOU complaining about Tommy Tainant
1. Are you saying that I am not giving charity while you are? Do you want to compare notes on how much charity has cost me vs. how much you are paying?

2. Do you want to discuss whether charity through govt is keeping people in poverty or is helping people with dignity?

Please specify because your last message seemed to divert back to #1 when I THOUGHT you said govt welfare was more dignified (#2) and I was asking are you sure about that

 

[koshergrl]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

 

[Andylusion]

What we are given in the gospels is a message of hope. But what is that hope based upon? Is it based upon government or God?

In the Bible, we see charity to the poor as a Biblical standard of conduct. When someone gives money to the poor, the person giving the money is blessed with the gift of giving, and the person receiving the gift is given the gift of gratitude. Those giving in the name of Christ have the additional benefit of giving a testimony as to the good works Christ does in other peoples lives, motivating them to seek him as well.

However, when the state gives, it is entirely different. When you give a dollar to the poor, about a tenth of that dollar actually goes to the poor. The rest is government overhead. And there is no voluntary giving. All the money is mandated taxation, thus the gift of giving is a complete loss to the giver. Add to that fact, it is seen as a virtuous thing to try and get out of paying taxes in general. Then the person getting the money who is in need is robbed of the gift of gratitude. In fact, the opposite occurs. The person getting the money no longer sees it as an act of charity, rather, it is what is due them and what is being given in never enough.

The government nanny state is a perversion of the Biblical example of giving to the poor.

If you study those who give time and money to the poor, you will see that the vast majority are those who practice their faith. Left wingers, by in large, are atheists/agnostics who sit around on their fat ass (cough, Michael Moore) whining about the government needing to force them to give more to the poor through taxation.

Very telling.

I have given to charity for most of my life. Neither me, nor the person receiving the charity, nor the organizations which the charity is given through, have ever concluded that I must be a socialists.

Even more ironic, some of the biggest givers to charity and the poor, are what socialists would call the evil 1%, the wealthy, the corportists, and so on.

Only is left-tard land, does Christian alms to the poor, mean all Christ was obviously a socialists. Those people are bonkers.

 

[Coyote]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

You'd be there? I'm withdrawing my application, clearly standards have gone waaaay down

Ghandi had it right: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

 

[Votto]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

No. How many good deeds would it take to atone for a murder?

That is stupid shit. No amount of good works can atone for it.

On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense.

All religions, other than Christianity, cause people to do good works in order to earn their way to heaven, hoping their good outweighs the bad.

That is stupid shit.

 

[Weatherman2020]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

God does not grade on a curve, we all fall short. Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler all stand in the same boat as you and I. There are rewards in heaven, what I do not know, if that comforts you.
I consider the fact that the creator of the universe knows how many hairs are on my head and has reached out a hand to me that stays extended to the very end pretty darn cool.

 

[emilynghiem]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

 

[Coyote]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

 

[koshergrl]

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

Not at all stupid, and it makes plenty of sense to normal, non-mentally ill, moral people of faith. It will keep mentally ill, milquetoast, self absorbed, ignorant morons like you out of heaven, and that is why it will be a perfect place for the rest of us.

^ Dear koshergrl I read your list
and all of these human traits are NOT the determining factors in themselves.

What sends people to go through hell/suffering is UNFORGIVENESS.

What allows people to rise above these earthly human conditions and find Peace and Heaven by healing and grace is
FORGIVENESS

I didn't see these listed in your list.

But those are the two key factors.

We can suffer from being mentally ill, selfish, ignorant, even hypocritical because we are human and subject to flaws and ills.

But what makes the DIFFERENCE:
* if we can FORGIVE one another our faults, we 'confess to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed' then we can restore what is right true and good despite the mental and physical ills we have to face as humans
* if we cannot forgive, then we suffer in a vicious cycle from these ills, and it's that unforgiveness that blocks us and traps us from making any progress to get out of our messes, fix or prevent them in the future.

koshergrl can we agree that no matter how mentally ill, socially or physically screwed up humans are, the key to saving humanity starts with FORGIVENESS. And this is the key to opening the door to change, to receive greater support to turn those ill situation around. No matter how bad the past is, no matter which person or group's fault or if it is shared, the way to stay stuck is unforgiveness and blaming back and forth, and the way out starts with forgiving the mess regardless of its cause.

Oh I forgive people. But for God to forgive.people, they have to ask for forgiveness, and repent their sins.

Christ also said cast not pearls before swine. Coyote is.swine.

 

[emilynghiem]

This all sounds like verbose Protestant bullsh!t to me.

I already know what Protestants believe.

If you are a Protestant I strongly suggest that you read the New Testament and do exactly what Jesus said.

That may or may NOT be what your Protestant minister tells you.

Like what?
And who in hell (literally) said you are not saved by grace alone?

Start by reading Matthew Chap. 25.

Memorize it.

Do tell me how the man on the cross who mere minutes earlier became a believer went to Paradise. Oh, works were not required!

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Memorize it.

That never made any sense. A person could be evil and repent at the last minute and gain salvation while another person, who was not a believer, could be full of goodness and sent to hell. Stupid shit.

No. How many good deeds would it take to atone for a murder?

That is stupid shit. No amount of good works can atone for it.

On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense.

All religions, other than Christianity, cause people to do good works in order to earn their way to heaven, hoping their good outweighs the bad.

That is stupid shit.

Dear Votto we are closing to agreeing than you might think.

I agree with your point here:
"On the other hand, what you can have is a change of heart and turn in the right direction by repenting. That actually makes sense."

What Christianity teaches is that once someone has this change of heart, then it is multiplied.

This tiny seed of faith blooms into a huge tree.

Christianity focuses on the key step that the internal change is what precedes the good coming from that change.

If we only judge people by what good is done on the outside, then people can be purely greedy inside, such as "offering to help women" but really trafficking them and enslaving them, but the only thing people see on the surface is these people are giving them food and shelter and "appearing" to keep them out of poverty.

That is an extreme example, but I am using it as "parable" that the point is if you really do things with the right intent INSIDE that is the key. The good that follows naturally is a CONSEQUENCE of that good intent, and it is not the physical works alone that is used to "judge if someone is right by God or saved or not." Or else we would be competing to do things materially, like "buying votes by giving out welfare" (another extreme example, not literal, but used as a metaphor).

What about the parent who punishes their child by depriving them of privileges because they did something wrong, such as lie about going out with friends when they went out with someone the parents weren't told about, and they are being grounded. If you saw this only in terms of who is giving and being nice, versus who is being mean and refusing to give, you would judge it wrong. The intent is to teach the kid to stick to the rules for their own safety, if they want to earn their privileges in being trusted to go out with friends.

so this is another example of why you don't just judge based on what things may appear to be externally, but look at the HEART of the matter and make sure that is consistent with what is true and just and good for people and the relationship.

The POINT in Christianity in "not relying on works" is not to JUDGE people by external works alone: to judge not but judge "righteous judgment."

It does NOT mean to ignore works, but to address the internal intent so that the physical works FOLLOW from that. Is this more clear?

 

[koshergrl]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

What you figger is irrelevant.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

 

[Coyote]

I've always figured Heaven is closeness to God and Hell is distance from God. We make our own heaven and hell and the only certainties are the lives we have now.

Well, at least you admit you make up your own religion.
At least Satan is happy.

Every religion was made up at some point and none of the memes are even original. Do you know how many dieties had affairs with mortals and produced illegitimate offspring with supernatural powers?