Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[Vastator]

But if this goes to court... two sides will be playing Johnny Cochran. And reasonable doubt is all that’s necessary for a “not guilty” verdict. It’s seems that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here. That’s probably why formal charges haven’t been filed.

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

You are incorrect in this instance and a jury will agree.

I would caution against preditcing the future.

 

[Vastator]

I'm not a savage.
I would have simply got back in the car and left.
Of course I'd never park in a handicap zone so it would never have become an issue.

Swish, you didn't address the point. You said the guy did not threaten her. If a man went up to your wife and started screaming at her in a parking lot, you wouldn't view that as a threat. I sure the fuck would. I frankly don't believe you saying you believe that is not threatening

So in response you escalate the situation?
How'd that turn out for Saint McGlockton?

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

Actually, yelling (threatening someone) is assault – it can be either a misdemeanor or a felony; battery is physical contact, a felony.

And in Florida either warrant the use of deadly force as a means of self-defense when the person attacked has a reasonable fear of bodily injury or death from the attacker, even if that attack is verbal in nature only.

The assailant was never spoken to prior to his commission of assault.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Bam! Perfectly stated

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

I am arguing no such thing

A civilian has no authority to pass either bail or sentences for crimes therefore the 8th amendment does not apply

He shot in self defense the law states that he now has to justify that shooting or be convicted of a crime

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I'm not a savage.
I would have simply got back in the car and left.
Of course I'd never park in a handicap zone so it would never have become an issue.

Swish, you didn't address the point. You said the guy did not threaten her. If a man went up to your wife and started screaming at her in a parking lot, you wouldn't view that as a threat. I sure the fuck would. I frankly don't believe you saying you believe that is not threatening

So in response you escalate the situation?
How'd that turn out for Saint McGlockton?

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

Actually, yelling (threatening someone) is assault – it can be either a misdemeanor or a felony; battery is physical contact, a felony.

And in Florida either warrant the use of deadly force as a means of self-defense when the person attacked has a reasonable fear of bodily injury or death from the attacker, even if that attack is verbal in nature only.

You have no idea what the guy was saying.
Battery,what the black guy did is assault

 

[Skull Pilot]

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

Shooting in self defense is not a punishment.

Shooting in self-defense is only justified if it they are in grave imminent danger. This guy wasn't. You're a hack. Cool beans, you've shown your true colors.

You think he wasn't

He might have thought something completely different after being blindsided by a much larger man

 

[beagle9]

Let the court and a jury decide.

How would you decide if you were on the jury based on the video evidence?

It was verbal, the guy made it physical therefore the guy who got shot was the aggressor. You never go from verbal to physical.

True, but the case is going to be looked at in the narrow time zone where the push was made, the gun was drawn, the reaction of the pusher after the gun was drawn, the shot being taken, and the history of the shooter.

 

[Vastator]

But if this goes to court... two sides will be playing Johnny Cochran. And reasonable doubt is all that’s necessary for a “not guilty” verdict. It’s seems that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here. That’s probably why formal charges haven’t been filed.

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

None of us can know “what”, visually speaking the victim could see, nor with what level of detail after being assaulted.. To wait the seconds for one could need for your vision to clear; is more than enough time for an assailant to end your life.

 

[G.T.]

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

None of us can know “what”, visually speaking the victim could see with what level of detail after being assaulted.. To wait the seconds for one could need for your vision to clear; is more than enough time for an assailant to end your life.

If you shoot first ask questions later after being pushed down, you need a shrink and not a gun.

 

[cwise76]

The video

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

None of us can know “what”, visually speaking the victim could see with what level of detail after his assault. To wait the seconds for one could need for your vision to clear; is more than enough time for an assailant to end your life.

Ok then shoot him in the leg. Looked like murder to me.

 

[beagle9]

But if this goes to court... two sides will be playing Johnny Cochran. And reasonable doubt is all that’s necessary for a “not guilty” verdict. It’s seems that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here. That’s probably why formal charges haven’t been filed.

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

The way the little agravator folded up on the pavement when he hit the pavement, I can understand his emotional state when he exacted vengence by way of his gun that was bigger than he was in the situation. Doesn't make him right to do what he did, but you can see why he did it in his case.

Might explain why he chose the women and children instead of the dad when he started his crap.

He didn't need no permit or weapon if a handicap parking spot drove him crazy like that.

 

[Vastator]

Let the court and a jury decide.

How would you decide if you were on the jury based on the video evidence?

It was verbal, the guy made it physical therefore the guy who got shot was the aggressor. You never go from verbal to physical.

True, but the case is going to be looked at in the narrow time zone where the push was made, the gun was drawn, the reaction of the pusher after the gun was drawn, the shot being taken, and the history of the shooter.

I’m not so sure the history of the shooter is as strong a bit of evidence as some might think. Because he was still demonstrably assaulted, and the victim of a crime. It would be like holding a rape victims past against her, just because she was a prostitute. Even douchebags, and scumbags can be victims of crime.

 

[Vastator]

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

None of us can know “what”, visually speaking the victim could see with what level of detail after being assaulted.. To wait the seconds for one could need for your vision to clear; is more than enough time for an assailant to end your life.

If you shoot first ask questions later after being pushed down, you need a shrink and not a gun.

Better than a coroner. No?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

Shooting in self defense is not a punishment.

Shooting in self-defense is only justified if it they are in grave imminent danger. This guy wasn't. You're a hack. Cool beans, you've shown your true colors.

In some states, yes – in Florida, not.

 

[Lewdog]

But if this goes to court... two sides will be playing Johnny Cochran. And reasonable doubt is all that’s necessary for a “not guilty” verdict. It’s seems that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here. That’s probably why formal charges haven’t been filed.

we will see, personally i secretly not so secretly hope that if the law doesnt get him, a crazed vigilante does because in my mind he doesnt at all value human life, while carrying a deadly weapon and i dont want those types out there in numbers as i raise kiddoes, myself

hes a sick ticket..obsessed and threatening to shoot folks over a fakkin parking spot

If that’s your way of saying he was the initial douchebag in the story; I agree. But that doesn’t make him fair game for assault. There’s lots of douchebags out there. And we can’t all deliver street justice based on our own opinions of another persons character.

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

These professed Second Amendment supporters do not even realize their arguments in this thread are hurting their campaign 10 times more than it is helping it.

 

[G.T.]

its based on his judgment of when to use deadly force and his track record of provoking situations.

Agreed. And having been blindsided by an unknown party with enough force to take you off your feet, and then having them upright standing over you; while you are now completely defenseless save for your gun; sounds like the perfect reason to shoot in self defense. Remember... there is no prior conversation between the victim, and the assailant. He has no way of knowing his intent, or motivations.

A guy came into the store and told the father something, which caused him to head out there..

I would never shoot a person for pushing me down, ever, and dont appreciate anyone owning deadly weapons that feels the opposite....Thats fucking insanity as a threshold. Also doing so without second thought and without seeing a weapon on the guy that pushed you..if you dont have your WITS about you you dont need to be carrying guns.

None of us can know “what”, visually speaking the victim could see with what level of detail after being assaulted.. To wait the seconds for one could need for your vision to clear; is more than enough time for an assailant to end your life.

If you shoot first ask questions later after being pushed down, you need a shrink and not a gun.

Better than a coroner. No?

Thats where I'm hoping he ends up. The less of these psychotics around the better. I'll take 500, 000 men who push someone away from their wife and kids than a single emotional basketcase who gets his little manballs by way of a pistol permit and then goes out looking for trouble

 

[cwise76]

Let the court and a jury decide.

How would you decide if you were on the jury based on the video evidence?

It was verbal, the guy made it physical therefore the guy who got shot was the aggressor. You never go from verbal to physical.

True, but the case is going to be looked at in the narrow time zone where the push was made, the gun was drawn, the reaction of the pusher after the gun was drawn, the shot being taken, and the history of the shooter.

I’m not so sure the history of the shooter is as strong a bit of evidence as some might think. Because he was still demonstrably assaulted, and the victim of a crime. It would be like holding a rape victims past against her, just because she was a prostitute. Even douchebags, and scumbags can be victims of crime.

Sorry man it just doesn’t add up: You can’t just kill people like that.

 

[Lewdog]

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

Shooting in self defense is not a punishment.

Shooting in self-defense is only justified if it they are in grave imminent danger. This guy wasn't. You're a hack. Cool beans, you've shown your true colors.

In some states, yes – in Florida, not.

Even Florida Zimmerman had injuries to the back of his head, and there was no video of the actual confrontation so it was Zimmerman's word against that of a dead guy and a girl that was just on the cell phone. This whole confrontation was caught on video. This guy is fucking toast.

 

[beagle9]

Let the court and a jury decide.

How would you decide if you were on the jury based on the video evidence?

It was verbal, the guy made it physical therefore the guy who got shot was the aggressor. You never go from verbal to physical.

True, but the case is going to be looked at in the narrow time zone where the push was made, the gun was drawn, the reaction of the pusher after the gun was drawn, the shot being taken, and the history of the shooter.

I’m not so sure the history of the shooter is as strong a bit of evidence as some might think. Because he was still demonstrably assaulted, and the victim of a crime. It would be like holding a rape victims past against her, just because she was a prostitute. Even douchebags, and scumbags can be victims of crime.

Yes true, but the details of this case might force the issue of looking at the shooters past just to make sure that he wasn't looking for a fight or stalking this store parking lot for that fight.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Swish, you didn't address the point. You said the guy did not threaten her. If a man went up to your wife and started screaming at her in a parking lot, you wouldn't view that as a threat. I sure the fuck would. I frankly don't believe you saying you believe that is not threatening

So in response you escalate the situation?
How'd that turn out for Saint McGlockton?

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.

Actually, yelling (threatening someone) is assault – it can be either a misdemeanor or a felony; battery is physical contact, a felony.

And in Florida either warrant the use of deadly force as a means of self-defense when the person attacked has a reasonable fear of bodily injury or death from the attacker, even if that attack is verbal in nature only.

You have no idea what the guy was saying.
Battery,what the black guy did is assault

You have no idea what the law is: there is no difference between yelling and assault – ‘big’ or otherwise.

Yelling can be perceived as a threat, justifying the use of deadly force as self-defense; physical contact (battery) is not required to justify the use of deadly force in Florida.

 

[Lewdog]

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

I'm of the mind that you don't assault people
I don't care that people who assault others get dead

Again, so do you believe in the Constitution or not? I want to make sure to hold you to this.

The constitution has nothing to do with it

The 8th amendment applies to bail and sentences passed by the government

Yeah, the punishment should fit the crime. You are fucking arguing that the guy deserved the death penalty for pushing the guy down. You fucking believe in the Constitution or not. It's based on the same principle.

I am arguing no such thing

A civilian has no authority to pass either bail or sentences for crimes therefore the 8th amendment does not apply

He shot in self defense the law states that he now has to justify that shooting or be convicted of a crime

YOU have stated YOU think that someone who simply pushes someone to the ground DESERVES to be shot to death. So YOU either believe in the principle the 8th Amendment is based on, against Cruel and Unusual Punishment, or YOU don't think everyone deserves equal rights... or you think we should just be the wild west where you can just shoot and kill whoever you want even if you don't feel your life is really at risk. I'm just going by what YOU have said.