Kentucky clerk refusing gay marriage has wed four times

[bendog]

That'd be fine so long as she wasn't a public servant refusing to do that which she is obligated to do because she ran for election promising to do it, and even as a private citizen, you sort of lose your moral highground when you ignore adultry and not sodomy.

You must have a literacy problem, she is not the sodomite here.
As far as "high moral ground" goes God will be her judge and she appears to understand that.

You on the other hand have failed to answer the question posed earlier, Do you believe on the Word of the Bible? Yes or no will suffice.

She's picking one sin to be ok, adultery, and trying to block another, sodomy. And she herself is living in sin, yet setting herself above the sodomites. I think that'd be hubris.

How is she living in sin?

Biblically, the only gound for divorce was unchastity, which I doubt the had three times previously. Even if she married the fourth time before adopting her view of religion, her current marriage is adulterous, because she could not remarry, yet she remains in the marriage apparantly enjoying the fruit thereof, which is itself adultery.

But G5000 is correct. While she could simply be a sinner who cannot repent, she grants licenses to fellow adulters, and thus she's participating in further their sins. One might note it's hypocritial to single out only one sin to deny marriage licenses, but the fact that she's a hypocrite isn't really it. Rather the fact is she's using her official office to enable people to commit adultery.

If she asked for forgiveness and was truly repentant her sin is forgiven. This is fun smacking you Biblical illiterates around[/QUOTE}

.

Even assuming she didn't view the Bible more or less as a fundmentalist but rather in a more mainstream light like Pope Francis or even Billy Graham, you don't get forgiveness for repenting and then going back and committing the same sin, becuase that demonstrates your repentence is not genuine. If she's taking the Bible literally, she has two options: a. continue living in a state of perpetually reoccuring adultery, or b. living single and chaste. In that, her choices are sin or condemn herslef to the same life choice she'd inflict upon gays. Some irony there.

But her personal sin aside, she's falcilliting adulters to marry

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

 

[g5000]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

For her to resign would require honor and integrity.

 

[Campbell]

The rubes are worshipping at the feet of a deceiver and hypocrite.

Probably because her bigotry harmonizes with their own.

"You've already been married once? Well, I'm only bible-compliant on odd numbered days."

Jesus forgave the woman at the well after having been married FIVE TIMES and living with a 6th man. Who are you to judge this woman whom God has forgiven? Do you not know the scriptures? God warns you not to trouble his children!

God's promise to his own children:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She's judging every person she refuses to issue a marriage licence to.

Oh...folks who actually believe that BS have a lot worse row to hoe than that:


There are 42 death penalty sins mentioned in the Old Testament:

1. Murder. Genesis 9:6.

2. Failing to circumcize. Genesis 17:14.

3. Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Exodus 12:15, 19.

4. Smiting parents. Exodus 21:15.

5. Kidnapping. Exodus 21:16.

6. Cursing parents. Exodus 21:17.

7. Negligence with animals that kill. Exodus 21:28-32.

8. Witchcraft. Exodus 22:18.

9. Bestiality. Exodus 22:19.

10. Idolatry. Exodus 22:20.

11. Making holy anointing oil without authorization. Exodus 30:33.

12. Putting holy anointing oil on strangers. Exodus 30:33.

13. Making the holy perfume without being commanded to do so. Exodus 30:38.
( I assume this is fartin' at the dinner table or in church)

14. Defiling the Sabbath. Exodus 31:14.

15. Working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.

16. Eating the flesh of the peace offering in uncleanness. Leviticus 7:20-21.

17. Eating the fat of sacrifices. Leviticus 7:25.

18. Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the Tabernacle. Leviticus 17:1-9.

19. Eating blood. Leviticus 17:10-14.

20. Incest. Leviticus 18:6-29.

21. Eating sacrifices at the wrong time. Leviticus 19:5-8.

22. Consecration of children to idols. Leviticus 20:1-5.

23. Spiritualism. Leviticus 20:6, 27.

24. Adultery. Leviticus 20:10.

25. Men lying with men in religious prostitution. Leviticus 20:13.

26. Relationship with a menstrous woman. Leviticus 20:18.

27. Whoredom. Leviticus 21:9.

28. Sacrilege. Leviticus 22:3.

29. Refusing to fast on the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 23:29.

30. Working on the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 23:30.

31. Blasphemy. Leviticus 24:24:11-16.

32. Failure to keep the Passover. Numbers 9:13.

33. Presumptous sins. Numbers 15:30-31.

34. Gathering fire-wood on the Sabbath. Numbers 15:32-36.

35. Failure to purify one's self before worship. Numbers 19:13, 20.

36. False prophesy. Deuteronomy 13:1-18.

37. Leading mean away from God. Deuteronomy 13:6-18.

38. Backsliding. Deuteronomy 17:2-7.

39. Stubbornness and rebellion. Deuteronomy 21:18-23.

40. Gluttony. Deuteronomy 21:20-23.

41. Drunkenness. Deuteronomy 21:20-23.

42. False dreams and visions. Deuteronomy 13:1-18.

 

[bendog]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

No, she has to be able to claim martyr status by being fined and removed. And if she's lucky a few days in jail will look good for her resume

 

[peach174]

There is not punishment from another in it. You are subjecting your selves to abnormal behavior just as a druggy subjects them selves and the people who are firm in their faith want no portion of your self subjection.

That'd be fine so long as she wasn't a public servant refusing to do that which she is obligated to do because she ran for election promising to do it, and even as a private citizen, you sort of lose your moral highground when you ignore adultry and not sodomy.

You must have a literacy problem, she is not the sodomite here.
As far as "high moral ground" goes God will be her judge and she appears to understand that.

You on the other hand have failed to answer the question posed earlier, Do you believe on the Word of the Bible? Yes or no will suffice.

Anybody who believes that 2000 year old fairy tale written by camel and sheep herders who believed in witches, thought the earth was flat, shit on the ground and wiped on their hands really needs to get a grip!

There is no proof that God does not exist.
Anyone who has a relationship with God knows that he exists and is real.

Oh he exists alright.....IN YOUR MIND!!

Tell me how my mind knew I needed something before I even knew it and I learned why a few days later?
It happens all the time to believers.
God tell believers all the time what they need or what to do. But he does not always tell us why, we have all these questions as to why and then we learn why later. It can be a bit exasperating at first, but as we learn to trust his voice we do it because it always works out in the end for good.
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

 

[rightwinger]

If clerks like Kim Davis Stopped stopped handing out marriage licenses to biblically defined adulterers, maybe the divorce rate would plummet and save the institution of marriage.

Homos are not the ones destroying the institution. Adulterers like Kim Davis and all the people she gives licenses to every day have already finished it off.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Very true

Those who jump in and out of marriage and get pregnant by another man while married are defiling the institution of marriage

Same sex couples are destroying the institution of marriage but Kim Davis didn't?

Why didn't someone deny her a license ?

She wasn't a Christian when she committed all those acts.

Do we execute the children of men who decide to become women? Women can't father children.

I bet if you asked her she would say she was a Christian

So...what if during her four trips to get a marriage license, some "Christian" clerk said her religious beliefs did not allow her to issue a license to someone who was an adulteress and obviously abusing the institution of marriage?

 

[idb]

Jesus on hypocrites: But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for people to see.

Yes, Jesus told the Pharisees and Saduccees who were the Jewish religious leaders these things because they were hypocrites. But to the woman caught in adultery - he forgave her - to the woman at the well who was married 5 times and living with a 6th man he invited her to drink from the living waters and receive eternal life. You see, in this story? You and RW are acting like the religious Pharisees. Your both acting as her judge and yet God has forgiven her already of her past. So who are you to remind her of it?

Do not trouble Christians you'll have to answer to God for it.

God's promise to his own children:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She hands out licenses to adulterers. This is what exposes her as a deceiver, a hypocrite, and a showboating bigot.

You are a fool for defending her as she mars Christianity.

She is also not performing her duty to uphold the law.

I'm sure she never eats shellfish nor wears clothing of mixed fabrics...I'm sure of it because...you know...The Bible an' all...

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

For her to resign would require honor and integrity.

There is nothing else for her to do but resign. How can she stay at that job? She can't. As for her past sins. There is no mention in the article as to "when" she became a Christian. If she became a Christian after she had been through these divorces than what you are talking about is something God has already forgiven. You cannot unscramble an egg. Time to move on.

 

[rightwinger]

This can happen only in Conservative Bizarro World....

Kentucky Clerk Fighting Gay Marriage Has Wed Four Times

The Kentucky county clerk facing potentially stiff penalties for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has been married four times, raising questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the Bible to her life.
The marriages are documented in court records obtained by U.S. News, which show that Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis divorced three times, first in 1994, then 2006 and again in 2008.
She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried.
Davis has described her desire to strictly adhere to the Bible in stark terms and thus far has shown no sign of bending to court orders on same-sex marriage

If she had been married in a Sodomite - same sex marriage and still believed it was alright, it would be hypocrisy. As it stands? It isn't. She wasn't married to women. She was married to men. As to how many times she was married? The woman at the well which Jesus spoke to in John Chapter 4 told her she had been married to 5 men and the one she was living with when Christ encountered her at the well was not her husband! Five! How many people have you married or lived with outside of marriage in your life? How many people have you had relations with outside of marriage? Do not answer the question but rather examine your own heart and quit accusing this woman in order to justify your own wickedness. You too can be forgiven by doing what Romans 10;9,10 says to do.

It is written:

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:

18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

John 5:13-18

This woman became a Christian, she serves the LORD and is doing her best to follow Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Drop the stones in your hands and repent of your own sins and follow Christ.

RW, you should know that Jimmy Carter is dying of brain cancer right now because he chose to tell the world that Jesus Christ approved homosexual marriage while claiming to be a follower of Jesus Christ. This woman would surely rather suffer the scorn of mockers than the judgment of God upon her own body. How about you? Would you rather have the judgment of God fall on you than to speak the truth about Jesus Christ and his condemnation of such sins?

Jeremiah ...I have defended you in the past but you are a hateful bitch and I truly hope that you will rot in hell

RW, you should know that Jimmy Carter is dying of brain cancer right now because he chose to tell the world that Jesus Christ approved homosexual marriage while claiming to be a follower of Jesus Christ

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, RW. I would rather you be honest than to lie and deceive yourself and others. You are upset because you do not want to accept that there are consequences for sin. I can understand that. Until now you've been sailing along thinking you could do whatever you wish and that you would not face a day of accounting. As you can see? That is not true. You are going to face a day of accounting just as Jimmy Carter is right now.

The truth is the truth. I make no apologies for it.
My deepest hope is that you do not rot in hell but rather that you repent of your wickedness, turn from your sins and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. I would not want to see my worst enemy in hell. It is a most terrible place and hell has no exits. If you end up going there you'll find that out. You should do the right thing and repent now while you have the breath in you to do it. Why go to sleep tonight not having the matter of your sins settled with Jesus Christ? TODAY is the day of Salvation. TODAY.

You are a spiteful bitch and Jesus hates you
You are slated to spend your days in the firery depths of hell with the other sinners

 

[peach174]

The rubes are worshipping at the feet of a deceiver and hypocrite.

Probably because her bigotry harmonizes with their own.

"You've already been married once? Well, I'm only bible-compliant on odd numbered days."

Jesus forgave the woman at the well after having been married FIVE TIMES and living with a 6th man. Who are you to judge this woman whom God has forgiven? Do you not know the scriptures? God warns you not to trouble his children!

God's promise to his own children:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She's judging every person she refuses to issue a marriage licence to.

Oh...folks who actually believe that BS have a lot worse row to hoe than that:


There are 42 death penalty sins mentioned in the Old Testament:

1. Murder. Genesis 9:6.

2. Failing to circumcize. Genesis 17:14.

3. Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Exodus 12:15, 19.

4. Smiting parents. Exodus 21:15.

5. Kidnapping. Exodus 21:16.

6. Cursing parents. Exodus 21:17.

7. Negligence with animals that kill. Exodus 21:28-32.

8. Witchcraft. Exodus 22:18.

9. Bestiality. Exodus 22:19.

10. Idolatry. Exodus 22:20.

11. Making holy anointing oil without authorization. Exodus 30:33.

12. Putting holy anointing oil on strangers. Exodus 30:33.

13. Making the holy perfume without being commanded to do so. Exodus 30:38.
( I assume this is fartin' at the dinner table or in church)

14. Defiling the Sabbath. Exodus 31:14.

15. Working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.

16. Eating the flesh of the peace offering in uncleanness. Leviticus 7:20-21.

17. Eating the fat of sacrifices. Leviticus 7:25.

18. Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the Tabernacle. Leviticus 17:1-9.

19. Eating blood. Leviticus 17:10-14.

20. Incest. Leviticus 18:6-29.

21. Eating sacrifices at the wrong time. Leviticus 19:5-8.

22. Consecration of children to idols. Leviticus 20:1-5.

23. Spiritualism. Leviticus 20:6, 27.

24. Adultery. Leviticus 20:10.

25. Men lying with men in religious prostitution. Leviticus 20:13.

26. Relationship with a menstrous woman. Leviticus 20:18.

27. Whoredom. Leviticus 21:9.

28. Sacrilege. Leviticus 22:3.

29. Refusing to fast on the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 23:29.

30. Working on the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 23:30.

31. Blasphemy. Leviticus 24:24:11-16.

32. Failure to keep the Passover. Numbers 9:13.

33. Presumptous sins. Numbers 15:30-31.

34. Gathering fire-wood on the Sabbath. Numbers 15:32-36.

35. Failure to purify one's self before worship. Numbers 19:13, 20.

36. False prophesy. Deuteronomy 13:1-18.

37. Leading mean away from God. Deuteronomy 13:6-18.

38. Backsliding. Deuteronomy 17:2-7.

39. Stubbornness and rebellion. Deuteronomy 21:18-23.

40. Gluttony. Deuteronomy 21:20-23.

41. Drunkenness. Deuteronomy 21:20-23.

42. False dreams and visions. Deuteronomy 13:1-18.

The Old Covenant is to the New.
This means that Jesus Christ supercedes the Old Testament.

 

[rightwinger]

So, let me get this straight

The moral compass of the State of Kentucky is defined by an adulteress female who has been married four times





.

 

[g5000]

The Old Covenant is to the New.
This means that Jesus Christ supercedes the Old Testament.

Heeeeeeeeeeeere's JESUS!

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Kim Davis makes Jesus cry every time she gives a marriage license to a divorcee.

And she does it every single day. For money.

She is a deceiver. You should be condemning her hypocrisy and dishonesty, not defending her. She is putting a stain on Christianity.

 

[Campbell]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

For her to resign would require honor and integrity.

There is nothing else for her to do but resign. How can she stay at that job? She can't. As for her past sins. There is no mention in the article as to "when" she became a Christian. If she became a Christian after she had been through these divorces than what you are talking about is something God has already forgiven. You cannot unscramble an egg. Time to move on.

Just curious....do you believe the bible?

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

Exodus 22:18
"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

Mark 16:
17"These signs will accompany them that believe: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jesus on hypocrites: But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for people to see.

Yes, Jesus told the Pharisees and Saduccees who were the Jewish religious leaders these things because they were hypocrites. But to the woman caught in adultery - he forgave her - to the woman at the well who was married 5 times and living with a 6th man he invited her to drink from the living waters and receive eternal life. You see, in this story? You and RW are acting like the religious Pharisees. Your both acting as her judge and yet God has forgiven her already of her past. So who are you to remind her of it?

Do not trouble Christians you'll have to answer to God for it.

God's promise to his own children:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She hands out licenses to adulterers. This is what exposes her as a deceiver, a hypocrite, and a showboating bigot.

You are a fool for defending her as she mars Christianity.

She is also not performing her duty to uphold the law.

I'm sure she never eats shellfish nor wears clothing of mixed fabrics...I'm sure of it because...you know...The Bible an' all...

G5000, brought up a valid point on the matter of issuing a license to someone who is an adulterer and you are helping them get a license. I wouldn't do it but that is me. What God would expect from me He might not expect from another person - I cannot say. To me it is an appearance of evil. I would not drive in a car with a man who was not my husband (without my husband being in the car too) I wouldn't work in a marriage license office for a $200,000.00 salary never mind an $80,000.00 salary. My Christianity isn't for sale.

 

[peach174]

The Old Covenant is to the New.
This means that Jesus Christ supercedes the Old Testament.

Heeeeeeeeeeeere's JESUS!

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Kim Davis makes Jesus cry every time she gives a marriage license to a divorcee.

And she does it every single day. For money.

And do you know all of the sexual immoralities ?

 

[idb]

Well, now it is coming out that she is a Democrat and was being paid $80,000.00. It could be this is another scenario set up to make Christians look bad. There is a history of Democrat's pretending to be Christians - then they purposely allow themselves to be caught in a scandal that makes Protestants look bad. The bottom line is - the right thing for clerks to do is to resign from a job that force them to go against what the bible teaches.

Hooray...a new Conspiracy Theory..."Gosh darn, it's been a while!"

 

[bendog]

How many times Davis has been married has no bearing on her doing her job, just as her religious beliefs have no bearing on how she does her job – she just needs to do her job; which means, among other things, obeying the rulings of the Federal courts, obeying the Constitution and its case law, and obeying the rule of law.

Her only other option is to resign.

For her to resign would require honor and integrity.

There is nothing else for her to do but resign. How can she stay at that job? She can't. As for her past sins. There is no mention in the article as to "when" she became a Christian. If she became a Christian after she had been through these divorces than what you are talking about is something God has already forgiven. You cannot unscramble an egg. Time to move on.

Ah, but can you be a christian if the Bible is in inerrent word of God on one sin, but not on another? Do you get to pick and choose inerrent and no room to apply reason and tradition, on one but waffle on another?

 

[bendog]

Jesus on hypocrites: But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for people to see.

Yes, Jesus told the Pharisees and Saduccees who were the Jewish religious leaders these things because they were hypocrites. But to the woman caught in adultery - he forgave her - to the woman at the well who was married 5 times and living with a 6th man he invited her to drink from the living waters and receive eternal life. You see, in this story? You and RW are acting like the religious Pharisees. Your both acting as her judge and yet God has forgiven her already of her past. So who are you to remind her of it?

Do not trouble Christians you'll have to answer to God for it.

God's promise to his own children:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She hands out licenses to adulterers. This is what exposes her as a deceiver, a hypocrite, and a showboating bigot.

You are a fool for defending her as she mars Christianity.

She is also not performing her duty to uphold the law.

I'm sure she never eats shellfish nor wears clothing of mixed fabrics...I'm sure of it because...you know...The Bible an' all...

I'll give up polyester and sodomy, but I can't give up shrimp and oysters.

 

[g5000]

Jesus on hypocrites: But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for people to see.

Yes, Jesus told the Pharisees and Saduccees who were the Jewish religious leaders these things because they were hypocrites. But to the woman caught in adultery - he forgave her - to the woman at the well who was married 5 times and living with a 6th man he invited her to drink from the living waters and receive eternal life. You see, in this story? You and RW are acting like the religious Pharisees. Your both acting as her judge and yet God has forgiven her already of her past. So who are you to remind her of it?

Do not trouble Christians you'll have to answer to God for it.

God's promise to his own children:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
II Thessalonians 1:6

She hands out licenses to adulterers. This is what exposes her as a deceiver, a hypocrite, and a showboating bigot.

You are a fool for defending her as she mars Christianity.

She is also not performing her duty to uphold the law.

I'm sure she never eats shellfish nor wears clothing of mixed fabrics...I'm sure of it because...you know...The Bible an' all...

G5000, brought up a valid point on the matter of issuing a license to someone who is an adulterer and you are helping them get a license. I wouldn't do it but that is me. What God would expect from me He might not expect from another person - I cannot say. To me it is an appearance of evil. I would not drive in a car with a man who was not my husband (without my husband being in the car too) I wouldn't work in a marriage license office for a $200,000.00 salary never mind an $80,000.00 salary. My Christianity isn't for sale.

Thank you, Jeremiah. It took open-mindedness and guts for you to see my point after we were at loggerheads earlier today.

I just am not buying this woman's claim her motives are based on the Bible. Her actions speak to the contrary.

We have to be very careful who we hold up to God and ourselves.