LDS church and children of LGBT couples: Jesus weeps

[JakeStarkey]

Yup, their asses getting kicked.

Well, then, when you turn 18 you can join the church or not join. your choice.
Mean while we'll get to see you go thru puberty.

btw jake, do you believe in infant baptism??? Cause every one of those kids in that depiction are under age to quality for baptism.
Way to deceive the less enlightened.

Wrong question, ty. The right one is why do you discriminate against children? Why do you break up families? You obviously don't believe in baptism at eight, it's not doctrine then if you can move it willy nilly. And why do you want children to disavow their parents? Shameful.

How are we breaking up families where a husband abandons his wife and children to be with his gay partner? How are we breaking up families by requiring minor children to wait until adulthood to join the Church? Should we be proselytizing minor children and turning them against their parents instead?

This rage makes no sense. I think you will recognize that it's not the Spirit of the Lord causing your anger. The Spirit brings peace, joy, gentleness, and weakness

When you have a child deny his parent, that is breaking up a family.

Which the child would have to do if they were baptized into the church, and that's why we don't. Thx for agreeing with us. The parents may have to bare the burden of that sin.

Thank you for admitting that you will break up families if necessary and turn children away from their parents. That is not godly.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Their roof, their rules.

And if it were a secular social club or fraternity they wouldn't be called a hate group because...?

Because no hate is involved in protecting minor children from conflict they don't understand.

Yes, the children know that the LDS leadership hates them.

Is this the Spirit of God influencing you to lie like this? You have to answer this yourself.

You are lying, Avatar, before God, angels, and witnesses. The church policy is hate if it tries to put the church's doctrine between parents and children. For shame.

 

[Avatar4321]

I’ll just remind everyone briefly of 1 Corinthians 13, perhaps the most quoted text in the New Testament, for good reason:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In the absence of understanding, of seeing things clearly, we should have charity. Prophecies–and policies–will fail, but charity will last.

Loyalty Is a Tricky Virtue

Which shows you know better than to lie about others.

Then stop your lying that you and your church love children. You come between them and their parents. The Holy Spirit testifies the church's position is not godly.

I'm not lying. It's specifically to prevent conflict between minors and their parents that we won't be encouraging them to make covenants until they are old enough to deal with it.

You don't have the Holy Spirit right now. The fruits of your posts make that abundantly clear.

 

[Avatar4321]

Nonsense. How does protecting children from family conflict occur out of lack of love? Christ said we aren't to harm children. Putting them in a position of conflict will hurt them.

Jesus loves everyone. Period.

No one said otherwise.

Children don't need the church they have Jesus love regardless.

Which is why we don't baptize little children.

And which if you truly believe that makes you or anyone else being upset about this ridiculous.

If you don't believe the Church why would you be bothered by it? If we don't have authority to baptize, who cares who we baptize or when? If we do, then shouldn't we submit to that authority if we want to be in the Kingdom of God?

When did I say I was upset? God's love has no condition. The church's love has conditions, it's not a hard choice. Don't ever join the church.

It's a discussion about the choice the church made. The church baptizes children at 8 yrs old, at 12yrs old children can join the priesthood. However, imo there is no need to belong to the church at all it since God loves all of us no matter what, God's love doesn't require a membership to the LDS church.

There are no conditions for the Church's love. It's precisely because we love them that we are having them wait to make covenants that their home life makes difficult to keep.

Christ established a Church. He obviously felt a need for it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

[I'm sure April conference will be interesting. It always is. I invite you to watch it very closely. I'm skeptical you are going to succeed with boycotts and such over a policy that protects children from making covenants contrary to the family lifestyle and creating conflict with in. But if you are, it will not change anything. The saints have been called through much worse, the Missouri extermination order comes to mind. If you think we will waver you are mistaken.

That's what the Saints said when told they would end polygamy or else: they ended polygamy.

That's what the Saints said when they insisted on the race policies in the Church that debased peoples of color, particularly those of African descent: they ended such policies.

I can give you several instances when the Church said "nope, never" yet changed.

This too will change, but it will take time. The women are more likely to receive the priesthood ordinations before the hate against the children of LGBT ends.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I’ll just remind everyone briefly of 1 Corinthians 13, perhaps the most quoted text in the New Testament, for good reason:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In the absence of understanding, of seeing things clearly, we should have charity. Prophecies–and policies–will fail, but charity will last.

Loyalty Is a Tricky Virtue

Which shows you know better than to lie about others.

Then stop your lying that you and your church love children. You come between them and their parents. The Holy Spirit testifies the church's position is not godly.

I'm not lying. It's specifically to prevent conflict between minors and their parents that we won't be encouraging them to make covenants until they are old enough to deal with it. You don't have the Holy Spirit right now. The fruits of your posts make that abundantly clear.

You are supporting a policy that lies in that it says it loves children but makes them choose between church and their parents at 18, that does not allow them to be baptized bore that.

What about the already baptized children in the church with LGBT parents: are you going to put them "on hold" until their 18.

 

[Avatar4321]

Their roof, their rules.

And if it were a secular social club or fraternity they wouldn't be called a hate group because...?

Because no hate is involved in protecting minor children from conflict they don't understand.

Yes, the children know that the LDS leadership hates them.

Is this the Spirit of God influencing you to lie like this? You have to answer this yourself.

You are lying, Avatar, before God, angels, and witnesses. The church policy is hate if it tries to put the church's doctrine between parents and children. For shame.

But it doesn't. The whole point of the policy is it doesn't.

Why do you keep lying about that?

This policy is completely consistent with past policies. The most analogous would be the polygamist families. But we won't let any minor be baptized with parent opposition.

Why? Because we won't create problems with minor children and their parents.

But then our previous policies of requiring children to wait till they are an adult didn't bother you, this one does.

 

[JakeStarkey]

With this policy, yes, your LDS church demonstrates conditional love.

The fallacy of false direction is noted: no one is arguing about your Church as Christ's church. The policy decision reveals that it certainly does not follow godly love.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And if it were a secular social club or fraternity they wouldn't be called a hate group because...?

Because no hate is involved in protecting minor children from conflict they don't understand.

Yes, the children know that the LDS leadership hates them.

Is this the Spirit of God influencing you to lie like this? You have to answer this yourself.

You are lying, Avatar, before God, angels, and witnesses. The church policy is hate if it tries to put the church's doctrine between parents and children. For shame.

But it doesn't. The whole point of the policy is it doesn't. Why do you keep lying about that? This policy is completely consistent with past policies. The most analogous would be the polygamist families. But we won't let any minor be baptized with parent opposition. Why? Because we won't create problems with minor children and their parents. But then our previous policies of requiring children to wait till they are an adult didn't bother you, this one does.

You are lying, Avatar.

One, your Church gives love conditional on obedience to bad policy. Yes, your policy does create bad problems between children and parents, because it makes children choose church of parents. Stop lying.

Two, rules on polygamy were not about children nearly as much as they were to keep FLDS adults out of LDS temples so they could not get their endowments. It was not about children.

 

[JakeStarkey]

As do people when they are defending the wrong, as does Avatar, we find him accusing me of doing what he is doing: lying.

The church does make children choose between parents and church.

The Mormon people are family centered. The ones I know west of Austin, Texas are unhappy. A few support the church, but several have told me already privately they will organize with others inside the church's active membership to oppose it.

 

[Avatar4321]

[I'm sure April conference will be interesting. It always is. I invite you to watch it very closely. I'm skeptical you are going to succeed with boycotts and such over a policy that protects children from making covenants contrary to the family lifestyle and creating conflict with in. But if you are, it will not change anything. The saints have been called through much worse, the Missouri extermination order comes to mind. If you think we will waver you are mistaken.

That's what the Saints said when told they would end polygamy or else: they ended polygamy.

That's what the Saints said when they insisted on the race policies in the Church that debased peoples of color, particularly those of African descent: they ended such policies.

I can give you several instances when the Church said "nope, never" yet changed.

This too will change, but it will take time. The women are more likely to receive the priesthood ordinations before the hate against the children of LGBT ends.

We believe in obeying the law. And we fought for our constitutional rights to worship as we could until the courts said we had none. We submitted to the law.

Policies on priesthood changed long after pressure to change them ceased. In fact, it was the growth of the Church in Brazil that probably influenced it the most. But as that was a fulfillment of prophecy that's been around since the Church began, we knew the change would come.

Gay marriage is contrary to the commandments of God. It's not going to change even if we could. The Lord wants us to be sealed eternally with our Spouses. Became Eternal Life requires an eternal family. Same sex couples cannot reproduce. They cannot create an eternal family. It's physically impossible for them to do no matter how much they want and desire it.

This will not change because people protest, boycott, or rage. Any more than the laws of gravity will change if we do such a thing.

You're upset not with the policy, since it's the same policy in place with polygamist families. Your upset because we are making it clear we will not stop declaring sin to be sin. And the powers of hell may rage against that, but it won't change the truth. And it won't make people happy in sin.

 

[Avatar4321]

I’ll just remind everyone briefly of 1 Corinthians 13, perhaps the most quoted text in the New Testament, for good reason:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In the absence of understanding, of seeing things clearly, we should have charity. Prophecies–and policies–will fail, but charity will last.

Loyalty Is a Tricky Virtue

Which shows you know better than to lie about others.

Then stop your lying that you and your church love children. You come between them and their parents. The Holy Spirit testifies the church's position is not godly.

I'm not lying. It's specifically to prevent conflict between minors and their parents that we won't be encouraging them to make covenants until they are old enough to deal with it. You don't have the Holy Spirit right now. The fruits of your posts make that abundantly clear.

You are supporting a policy that lies in that it says it loves children but makes them choose between church and their parents at 18, that does not allow them to be baptized bore that.

What about the already baptized children in the church with LGBT parents: are you going to put them "on hold" until their 18.

So if someone doesn't believe your false dichotomy we are lying.

 

[Avatar4321]

With this policy, yes, your LDS church demonstrates conditional love.

The fallacy of false direction is noted: no one is arguing about your Church as Christ's church. The policy decision reveals that it certainly does not follow godly love.

If this propaganda thread of yours demonstrates your idea of godly love, I want no part of it.

I'd much prefer the genuine article.

 

[JakeStarkey]

With this policy, yes, your LDS church demonstrates conditional love.

The fallacy of false direction is noted: no one is arguing about your Church as Christ's church. The policy decision reveals that it certainly does not follow godly love.

If this propaganda thread of yours demonstrates your idea of godly love, I want no part of it. I'd much prefer the genuine article.

Again you label me with what you are doing: propaganda. I am saying that Christ accepts all unconditionally. Your church in this policy is not.

 

[JakeStarkey]

[I'm sure April conference will be interesting. It always is. I invite you to watch it very closely. I'm skeptical you are going to succeed with boycotts and such over a policy that protects children from making covenants contrary to the family lifestyle and creating conflict with in. But if you are, it will not change anything. The saints have been called through much worse, the Missouri extermination order comes to mind. If you think we will waver you are mistaken.

That's what the Saints said when told they would end polygamy or else: they ended polygamy.

That's what the Saints said when they insisted on the race policies in the Church that debased peoples of color, particularly those of African descent: they ended such policies.

I can give you several instances when the Church said "nope, never" yet changed.

This too will change, but it will take time. The women are more likely to receive the priesthood ordinations before the hate against the children of LGBT ends.

We believe in obeying the law. And we fought for our constitutional rights to worship as we could until the courts said we had none. We submitted to the law.

Policies on priesthood changed long after pressure to change them ceased. In fact, it was the growth of the Church in Brazil that probably influenced it the most. But as that was a fulfillment of prophecy that's been around since the Church began, we knew the change would come.

Gay marriage is contrary to the commandments of God. It's not going to change even if we could. The Lord wants us to be sealed eternally with our Spouses. Became Eternal Life requires an eternal family. Same sex couples cannot reproduce. They cannot create an eternal family. It's physically impossible for them to do no matter how much they want and desire it.

This will not change because people protest, boycott, or rage. Any more than the laws of gravity will change if we do such a thing.

You're upset not with the policy, since it's the same policy in place with polygamist families. Your upset because we are making it clear we will not stop declaring sin to be sin. And the powers of hell may rage against that, but it won't change the truth. And it won't make people happy in sin.

Your history defied the law for scores of years before the Church as an institution was forced to abandon polygamy.

Church membership pressure, not prophecy, ended the color ban on priesthood.

The LDS Church has every right to not marry LGBT couples, and I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that principles.

However, many LDS couples don't reproduce. Many of your GAs have remarried at the death of their spouses, and they are not reproducing. That argument fails, as you well know.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I’ll just remind everyone briefly of 1 Corinthians 13, perhaps the most quoted text in the New Testament, for good reason:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In the absence of understanding, of seeing things clearly, we should have charity. Prophecies–and policies–will fail, but charity will last.

Loyalty Is a Tricky Virtue

Which shows you know better than to lie about others.

Then stop your lying that you and your church love children. You come between them and their parents. The Holy Spirit testifies the church's position is not godly.

I'm not lying. It's specifically to prevent conflict between minors and their parents that we won't be encouraging them to make covenants until they are old enough to deal with it. You don't have the Holy Spirit right now. The fruits of your posts make that abundantly clear.

You are supporting a policy that lies in that it says it loves children but makes them choose between church and their parents at 18, that does not allow them to be baptized bore that.

What about the already baptized children in the church with LGBT parents: are you going to put them "on hold" until their 18.

So if someone doesn't believe your false dichotomy we are lying.

The church policy is indeed a lie: your church does not love children unconditionally. To accuse me of lying when you are in fact lying as you did immediately above with your false dichotomy.

I grant you are trying to not be stupidly personal, like tyroneweaver has been doing, in argument.

Let's both work on treating each other accordingly to good manners, and I welcome tyroneweaver to do the same.

 

[Avatar4321]

As do people when they are defending the wrong, as does Avatar, we find him accusing me of doing what he is doing: lying.

The church does make children choose between parents and church.

The Mormon people are family centered. The ones I know west of Austin, Texas are unhappy. A few support the church, but several have told me already privately they will organize with others inside the church's active membership to oppose it.

Is that why you are accusing me of lying? Because you know you are defending the wrong.

You keep knowingly saying requiring someone to admit same sex marriage is a sin is disavowing a parent or making a child choose between loving a parent and loving the Church. That's a lie. And you know it.Everyone reading knows it. And God knows it.

Saying you are lying when you are lying doesn't mean I'm defending something that is wrong. By the way Satan is raging in the hearts of so many in reaction to this policy that has precedent it's obvious it's the correct one albeit not what I would have come up with initially.

Remember Galatians 5:22-24

 

[Avatar4321]

[I'm sure April conference will be interesting. It always is. I invite you to watch it very closely. I'm skeptical you are going to succeed with boycotts and such over a policy that protects children from making covenants contrary to the family lifestyle and creating conflict with in. But if you are, it will not change anything. The saints have been called through much worse, the Missouri extermination order comes to mind. If you think we will waver you are mistaken.

That's what the Saints said when told they would end polygamy or else: they ended polygamy.

That's what the Saints said when they insisted on the race policies in the Church that debased peoples of color, particularly those of African descent: they ended such policies.

I can give you several instances when the Church said "nope, never" yet changed.

This too will change, but it will take time. The women are more likely to receive the priesthood ordinations before the hate against the children of LGBT ends.

We believe in obeying the law. And we fought for our constitutional rights to worship as we could until the courts said we had none. We submitted to the law.

Policies on priesthood changed long after pressure to change them ceased. In fact, it was the growth of the Church in Brazil that probably influenced it the most. But as that was a fulfillment of prophecy that's been around since the Church began, we knew the change would come.

Gay marriage is contrary to the commandments of God. It's not going to change even if we could. The Lord wants us to be sealed eternally with our Spouses. Became Eternal Life requires an eternal family. Same sex couples cannot reproduce. They cannot create an eternal family. It's physically impossible for them to do no matter how much they want and desire it.

This will not change because people protest, boycott, or rage. Any more than the laws of gravity will change if we do such a thing.

You're upset not with the policy, since it's the same policy in place with polygamist families. Your upset because we are making it clear we will not stop declaring sin to be sin. And the powers of hell may rage against that, but it won't change the truth. And it won't make people happy in sin.

Your history defied the law for scores of years before the Church as an institution was forced to abandon polygamy.

Church membership pressure, not prophecy, ended the color ban on priesthood.

The LDS Church has every right to not marry LGBT couples, and I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that principles.

However, many LDS couples don't reproduce. Many of your GAs have remarried at the death of their spouses, and they are not reproducing. That argument fails, as you well know.

You demosntrate you dont know the history and understand the arguments. That's oddly enough, good. Because if you did you would be more accountable for what you do.

Come and learn. Understand the truths about eternal marriage and family instead of raging against them. The Lord will bless you if you do.

 

[Avatar4321]

Which shows you know better than to lie about others.

Then stop your lying that you and your church love children. You come between them and their parents. The Holy Spirit testifies the church's position is not godly.

I'm not lying. It's specifically to prevent conflict between minors and their parents that we won't be encouraging them to make covenants until they are old enough to deal with it. You don't have the Holy Spirit right now. The fruits of your posts make that abundantly clear.

You are supporting a policy that lies in that it says it loves children but makes them choose between church and their parents at 18, that does not allow them to be baptized bore that.

What about the already baptized children in the church with LGBT parents: are you going to put them "on hold" until their 18.

So if someone doesn't believe your false dichotomy we are lying.

The church policy is indeed a lie: your church does not love children unconditionally. To accuse me of lying when you are in fact lying as you did immediately above with your false dichotomy.

I grant you are trying to not be stupidly personal, like tyroneweaver has been doing, in argument.

Let's both work on treating each other accordingly to good manners, and I welcome tyroneweaver to do the same.

If you continue lying why should I stop calling you on it?

When you stop lying about the Church of Jesus Christ, I will stop saying you are lying about it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

As do people when they are defending the wrong, as does Avatar, we find him accusing me of doing what he is doing: lying.

The church does make children choose between parents and church.

The Mormon people are family centered. The ones I know west of Austin, Texas are unhappy. A few support the church, but several have told me already privately they will organize with others inside the church's active membership to oppose it.

Is that why you are accusing me of lying? Because you know you are defending the wrong. You keep knowingly saying requiring someone to admit same sex marriage is a sin is disavowing a parent or making a child choose between loving a parent and loving the Church. That's a lie. And you know it.Everyone reading knows it. And God knows it.

Saying you are lying when you are lying doesn't mean I'm defending something that is wrong. By the way Satan is raging in the hearts of so many in reaction to this policy that has precedent it's obvious it's the correct one albeit not what I would have come up with initially.

Remember Galatians 5:22-24

You are making people avow that they disagree with their parents, publicly, that they are wrong. That is conditional love.

Satan may be raging in some non-LDS hearts, but it is doing so in many LDS hearts as well.