Let There Be Peace Already

[SAYIT]

Ima -

then we totally agree.

I see no point in attempting to discuss land ownership before the time when people abandoned nomadic lifestyles and settled into permanant communities, from which continual haibation can be traced.

We know that the foreafethers of todays Palestinians lived in towns like Jericho 3,000+ years ago, and we know they formed the majority of the population in that time. We also know a small number of Jews lived alongside them.

To me that is really the beginning and the end of it.

How convenient.
Must we use your snapshot to determine that land ownership was established 3000 years ago?
Who died and made you god?
Perhaps we should use mine instead: I see no point in considering any alleged land ownership prior to 2012.
Israel exists, Princess, and those Israelis aren't going anywhere. I suggest you get used to it.
Israel - 23,000 days of statehood and still winning!
"Palestine" - 0 days of statehood and still whining!

 

[SAYIT]

Hamas wants to wipe Israel off the map. They will not change, as long as Palestinians keep them in power there will never be peace.

True.

But it is in the interests of both Palestinians and Israelis that Palestinian voters sense they will get a better deal elsewhere.

How did UNO defeat Sandinista in the classis Nicaraguan election of 1990?

By offering peace - and the benefits of peace, such as an end to conscription.

If Israel really wanted peace, they could offer something similiar to the Camp David deal to Fatah, with conditions. They way voters in Gaza might consider abandoning Hamas and back the more moderate Fatah.

In one sense, Israel strengthened Hamas by bombing it to death a couple of years back - it proved that what Hamas says about Israel is true, in one sense.

The more moderate Fatah? You've been drinking the kool-aid again. What Israel proved to Hamas and those "peaceful" Arabs alike was that they can only poke Israel with those rockets for so long before some lead is cast in the Arab's direction.

 

[SAYIT]

So true Tinmore. Long live Hamas. They have already killed more Palestinians in the few years since their election by the Palestinian people than Israel has since 1948.

I keep hearing the term moderate when talking about Fatah. That was not what the Palestinians were looking for in the elections.

Hamas does for the people and defends the people.

Fatah does not.

When Israel attacks Palestinians in Gaza it is met with bombs and bullets.

In the West Bank Fatah rolls out the red carpet. The PA has a 50,000 security force. Half of its budget goes to security. Yet when Palestinians are attacked there is never a cop in sight.

Only the Palestinians who are on the US payroll.

That, of course, is any "Palestinian" who believes co-existence with Israel is preferable to your never-ending war against the Joooos, eh Princess?

 

[Saigon]

The more moderate Fatah? You've been drinking the kool-aid again. What Israel proved to Hamas and those "peaceful" Arabs alike was that they can only poke Israel with those rockets for so long before some lead is cast in the Arab's direction.

Sayit -

Yes, Fatah are more moderate than Hamas. You may also remember that Fatah fught an internecine to war with Hamas recently, one of the key points of different being polci conerning Israel.

What Israel did with Gaza is to increase membership of Hamas by 20%. Just like when Israel first invaded Southern Lebanon, and increased the suport of Hezbollah by 430% within one year.

btw. Sayit - try and keep in mind that I have lived in Israel, and consider the country my second home. Trying to paint me as an enemy of Israel doesn't suggest to me you quite 'get' the issues here.

 

[Saigon]

Rhodes - Which camps have you been to? Please be specific in your answer, because when yo say "all over the mideast" I am not sure what you mean.

This is an example of the weak posters here defending the muslim filth; they try to re-direct the topic away from the arab muslim failures to attacks on the poster... zzzzzzzz.....

Still no answer.

The word 'camps' is a bit confusing, because they aren't actually camps as such. There are no fences, guard towers, gates or walls. They are just villages.

They aren't pretty, but then these people are largely refugees, and most to be going elsewhere at some point.

The camps are not "all over the middle east", they are in Lebanon and Syria.

 

[rhodescholar]

Still no answer.

The word 'camps' is a bit confusing, because they aren't actually camps as such. There are no fences, guard towers, gates or walls. They are just villages.

They aren't pretty, but then these people are largely refugees, and most to be going elsewhere at some point.

The camps are not "all over the middle east", they are in Lebanon and Syria.

Wrong again, moron:

Palestine refugee camps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are not refugees according to the definition accorded to EVERY other group on earth. Sorry dipshit, but you don't get to be a refugee when your grandparents started a war they lost.

 

[Saigon]

Rhodes -

Your link to a story entitled:

"Palestine refugee camps"

suggests to me that many people consider them to be refugees.

Certainly they consider themselves to be, as certainly their hosts consider them to be.

If you wish to present a case that a person who moved from Shabaa Farms to Beirut because of the bombing is NOT a refugee - then by all means do so.

btw, The children of refugees and asylum seekers can also be considered refugees and asylum seekers. The concept does not expire after one generation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So true Tinmore. Long live Hamas. They have already killed more Palestinians in the few years since their election by the Palestinian people than Israel has since 1948.

Only the Palestinians who are on the US payroll.

That, of course, is any "Palestinian" who believes co-existence with Israel is preferable to your never-ending war against the Joooos, eh Princess?

I am not sure how that relates to my post.

Where did you get that info? I believe it is incorrect.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Still no answer.

The word 'camps' is a bit confusing, because they aren't actually camps as such. There are no fences, guard towers, gates or walls. They are just villages.

They aren't pretty, but then these people are largely refugees, and most to be going elsewhere at some point.

The camps are not "all over the middle east", they are in Lebanon and Syria.

Wrong again, moron:

Palestine refugee camps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are not refugees according to the definition accorded to EVERY other group on earth. Sorry dipshit, but you don't get to be a refugee when your grandparents started a war they lost.

Sorry dipshit, but you don't get to be a refugee when your grandparents started a war they lost.

Not true. Where did you get that?

 

[rhodescholar]

Rhodes - Your link to a story entitled: "Palestine refugee camps"suggests to me that many people consider them to be refugees.

B/c they call themselves "refugees" does not mean that they are. I can call myself martian, but if the legal definition of the term does not apply - then I am not one.

Certainly they consider themselves to be, as certainly their hosts consider them to be.

Their "hosts" discriminate against them, and use them as a political tool against Israel. Still does not make them refugees, just discriminated against.

If you wish to present a case that a person who moved from Shabaa Farms to Beirut because of the bombing is NOT a refugee - then by all means do so. btw, The children of refugees and asylum seekers can also be considered refugees and asylum seekers. The concept does not expire after one generation.

Try buying some facts, fuckbrain - and this from the asshole who keeps trying to litmus test about other posters knowledge - too fucking hilarious.

According to the official UN definition of a refugee - the pal arabs are NOT refugees, as following generations CANNOT be considered as such. Next time asshole you want to question someone else's knowledge, just STFU.

 

[rhodescholar]

Not true. Where did you get that?

Children of refugees are not legally considered refugees as well according to the official definition of a refugee of the UN, moron.

It was only after the arab-driven and artificially manufactured pal arab "special" definition through UNWRA did anyone begin considering them as such.

No other group in the world has a special definition created for them to be called "refugees", which is why no one rational accepts them as such. Either the same rules apply to all, or no one.

Sorry douchebag.

 

[rhodescholar]

Refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The major exception is the 4,600,000 Palestinian refugees under the authority of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), who are the only group to be granted refugee status to the descendants of refugees according to the above definition.[8]"

QFT. NEXT.

 

[JStone]

Not true. Where did you get that?

Children of refugees are not legally considered refugees as well according to the official definition of a refugee of the UN, moron.

It was only after the arab-driven and artificially manufactured pal arab "special" definition through UNWRA did anyone begin considering them as such.

No other group in the world has a special definition created for them to be called "refugees", which is why no one rational accepts them as such. Either the same rules apply to all, or no one.

Sorry douchebag.

Absolutely correct. Descendants of refugees are not refugees. My grandfather immigrated from Poland, but, I'm not a Polish refugee. If I went to the UN asking for refugee benefits, they'd laugh me out the door.

The UN created a unique definition for so-called palestinian refugees that any arab living in Israel prior to the '48 War became a palestinian refugee. So, an Egyptian, Saudi, Algerian, Syrian or any other arab who migrated to Israel before the war magically became a palestinian refugee.

It's important to note that palestinian is not an ethnic designation: Under the British Mandate, which reinvented the word palestine, everyone, including Jews, was a palestinian

Most if not all of the original arab refugees of the '48 war are deceased. There are no more palestinian refugees in point of fact.

 

[Saigon]

Rhodes - Your link to a story entitled: "Palestine refugee camps"suggests to me that many people consider them to be refugees.

B/c they call themselves "refugees" does not mean that they are. I can call myself martian, but if the legal definition of the term does not apply - then I am not one.

By which definition of the term are they not refugees?

I'd be interested to see your definiton - and the source for it.

 

[Saigon]

Refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The major exception is the 4,600,000 Palestinian refugees under the authority of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), who are the only group to be granted refugee status to the descendants of refugees according to the above definition.[8]"

QFT. NEXT.

Ah, ok - I' hadn't seen this when making my previous post....this doesn't seem to be entirely true of asylum seekers, though is it?

And have not many Palestinians leaving the area claimed asylum seeker status?

 

[JStone]

Refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The major exception is the 4,600,000 Palestinian refugees under the authority of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), who are the only group to be granted refugee status to the descendants of refugees according to the above definition.[8]"

QFT. NEXT.

Ah, ok - I' hadn't seen this when making my previous post....this doesn't seem to be entirely true of asylum seekers, though is it?

And have not many Palestinians leaving the area claimed asylum seeker status?

What's a palestinian since Jews were palestinians under the British Mandate?

You don't even know

 

[docmauser1]

"Palestine refugee camps" suggests to me that many people consider them to be refugees.

They have the right to be delusional, indeed.

Certainly they consider themselves to be,

Occupationally, of course.

The children of refugees and asylum seekers can also be considered refugees and asylum seekers. The concept does not expire after one generation.

Because palistanians have their own tailor-made exclusive UNRWA to perpetuate a "perpetual refugee" scam. Non-royal, ie. real refugees on/of all good earth, get by with a discount UNHCR, which denies a refugee status to the descendants of refugees. Besides, the majority of palistanians in Lebanon ran there from Jordan.

 

[JStone]

Quote: Originally Posted by Saigon
The children of refugees and asylum seekers can also be considered refugees and asylum seekers. The concept does not expire after one generation.

Incorrect, under standard refugee guidelines, descendants of refugees are not refugees.

I'm not a Polish refugee though my grandfather was.

 

[rhodescholar]

Ah, ok - I' hadn't seen this when making my previous post....this doesn't seem to be entirely true of asylum seekers, though is it? And have not many Palestinians leaving the area claimed asylum seeker status?

As I mentioned, people can "claim" to be anything they want, but it doesn't make it as such.

Look at the US, where illegal immigrants from mexico and south america come into the country claiming needs status or having babies here, so that they can collect welfare and handouts.

As long as there are clueless or malicious aiders and abettors - and the pal arabs have lots of both, though most are malicious given their hatred of jews and/or political motivations against israel - there will always be (my favorite word) "disenfranchised" groups seeking a handout.

Just ask Al Sharpton's accountant, it's what keeps people like him, Charlie Rangel and Jesse Jackson in business, well-fed, and well-dressed.

When you think about it, it's a great system; it gives jobs to lots of people like the aid workers and hamas in gaza - keeps the terrorist money flowing there - and gives the poor, poor, "disenfranchised" pal arabs under the misguided impression that they are "refugees" and therefore entitled to handouts, aid, and political cover by their arab brethren seeking a tool to point at israel. It's really an excellent manufactured system, as it perpetuates the issue indefinitely by granting "refugee" status to descendants, and as "refugees", its an opportunity to seek sympathy from clueless college students and ignorant young people in the West, who can then feel they are "helping" the situation by chanting, attending rallies and meetings, and other such nonsense on behalf of the pal arabs. It's one big fat party for all of them - designed to never actually solve the issue, just keep the wasted money and misguided sympathy flowing forever.

 

[Saigon]

Rhodes -

I think it is important to note the difference between refugees with asylum seekers.

The latter is fantastically hard to determine, but refugees not so much so, I'd have thought.

I wonder if you would be quite so dismissive of the claims of Palestinians rights to refugee status if they were white - it is very difficult for people to remove their own sense of hatred from the situation and be objective.