Let's celebrate the Right to Keep and Bear arms...something the rest of the world has surrendered....

[Vagabond63]

And the US is not the UK and it will never be the UK so what you want Americans to do is irrelevant

Personally, I don't care that much what goes on across the pond unless it is likely to affect me personally. As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work, therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.

 

[NoNukes]

Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....

The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....

Soooooo.....



I love this country and its Freedom......

The rest of the world surrendered it for good reasons. Americans are too thick to see this.

 

[Blues Man]

Don't you? Many posters on this site appear to blame all Muslims for 9/11, forgetting or ignoring the fact that that atrocity was carried out by Saudis.

No I don't. 9\11 was motivated by the US's constant meddling in the Middle East and not by religion

You certainly do blame everyone for the crimes of others though.

 

[Blues Man]

Personally, I don't care that much what goes on across the pond unless it is likely to affect me personally. As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work, therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.

The fact is all your gun control didn't change your murder or crime rates at all.

The fact is we have more guns in the hands of the public than ever before and our murder rate is virtually the same as it was 50 years ago.

 

[M14 Shooter]

One picture is worth a thousand words.

As you know...
For every gun used to commit murder, >10 are used in self-defense
For every gun used to commit suicide, >5 are used in self-0defense

 

[M14 Shooter]

No, they don't.
In America, an estimated 16,425 people were murdered in 2019. This was a 0.3% increase from the 2018 estimate.

The FBI said 13,927, down from 2016 2017 and 2018.
How are they wrong?

 

[M14 Shooter]

So, we should allow people to have Tommy Guns, RPG's, shotguns with 5-inch barrels and silencers?

These are all legal to own in the US.

 

[M14 Shooter]

As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work...

Mostly, people note that the claim your system -does- work is a post-hoc fallacy.
And they're right, as you, personally, collectively, and repeatedly, have failed to demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in the UK and the lower rate of gun-related crime in the UK.

therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.

Fallacy: Non-seq. No one argues this, and nothing in my argument, above, necessitates this.

What should -never- be done to address the number of gun-related "killings and woundings" in the US is to lay unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

These are all legal to own in the US.

YES, they are.
NOT without a background check and a license.

We've been over this.

 

[M14 Shooter]

YES, they are.

And so, the answer to your question:
So, we should allow people to have Tommy Guns, RPG's, shotguns with 5-inch barrels and silencers?
Is "yes".

NOT without a background check and a license.

You need neither to own this.

 

[2aguy]

They aren't, numbnuts.
Another Trumptard who can't read.

'In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide'.

Ignoring the and part?

So, that's where you're getting your BS from?

Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist, also ignores the fact that his results repeatedly fail tests of external validity. In our original article, we mention that Kleck’s data would require, impossibly, that gun owners use their gun in self-defense in more than 100 percent of burglaries.
Kleck’s data also suggests that every year hundreds of thousands of criminals are shot by law-abiding citizens. But where are the hospital records to validate this claim?
Kleck insists, with no medical knowledge and without citing a single study, that the vast majority of these criminals never seek hospital treatment, a claim scoffed at by medical professionals.

Kleck concludes his article by saying we “have not offered any new criticisms” and, like Dr. Hemenway before us, do “not once cite the one thing that could legitimately cast doubt on our estimates—better empirical evidence.” However, had he read the second page of our column, he would have seen that the entire point of our article was to highlight new empirical evidence debunking Kleck’s claims.

Here are the facts Kleck missed: According to his own survey more than 50 percent of respondents claim to have reported their defensive gun use to the police.
This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.
Where are the remaining 99.94 percent of Kleck’s supposed DGUs hiding?

Like I stated..................a survey.

Sure................ANOTHER survey.

In May 1994 by ABC News and the Washington Post. One question asked: "Have you yourself ever seen anything that you believe was a spacecraft from another planet?" 10% of respondents answered in the affirmative. These 150 individuals were then asked, "Have you personally ever been in contact with aliens from another planet or not?" and 6% answered "Yes."

By extrapolating to the national population, we might conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen spacecraft from another planet, and over a million have been in personal contact with aliens from other planets.

You morons keep trying to lie about Kleck, but everytime anti-gun researchers try to refute him with their own studies they come back with almost the same numbers....

You guys focus on Kleck in the hope people will not notice the 18 other studies that show the same thing Kleck found....here...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

 

[2aguy]

They aren't, numbnuts.
Another Trumptard who can't read.

'In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide'.

Ignoring the and part?

So, that's where you're getting your BS from?

Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist, also ignores the fact that his results repeatedly fail tests of external validity. In our original article, we mention that Kleck’s data would require, impossibly, that gun owners use their gun in self-defense in more than 100 percent of burglaries.
Kleck’s data also suggests that every year hundreds of thousands of criminals are shot by law-abiding citizens. But where are the hospital records to validate this claim?
Kleck insists, with no medical knowledge and without citing a single study, that the vast majority of these criminals never seek hospital treatment, a claim scoffed at by medical professionals.

Kleck concludes his article by saying we “have not offered any new criticisms” and, like Dr. Hemenway before us, do “not once cite the one thing that could legitimately cast doubt on our estimates—better empirical evidence.” However, had he read the second page of our column, he would have seen that the entire point of our article was to highlight new empirical evidence debunking Kleck’s claims.

Here are the facts Kleck missed: According to his own survey more than 50 percent of respondents claim to have reported their defensive gun use to the police.
This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.
Where are the remaining 99.94 percent of Kleck’s supposed DGUs hiding?

Like I stated..................a survey.

Sure................ANOTHER survey.

In May 1994 by ABC News and the Washington Post. One question asked: "Have you yourself ever seen anything that you believe was a spacecraft from another planet?" 10% of respondents answered in the affirmative. These 150 individuals were then asked, "Have you personally ever been in contact with aliens from another planet or not?" and 6% answered "Yes."

By extrapolating to the national population, we might conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen spacecraft from another planet, and over a million have been in personal contact with aliens from other planets.

Shit head....

This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.

Most of the defensive gun uses did not involve even firing the gun....you moron...which means the criminal ran off, or surrendered .........and in most of those cases, the police would not have even recorded the use of a gun, you idiot....

This shows how deceptive you idiots are....

 

[2aguy]

Not at all, but you should take reasonable precautions in case I might one day turn murderous or get drunk and drive. Requiring training and background testing is, in my view, the bare minimum requirements before allowing anyone to get a firearm. In the UK you had to be a member of a gun club or similar for a time before you could apply for a firearms certificate. This requirement gave the club time to train you in safe practices and to evaluate your state of mind (UK clubs were interviewed by police when you applied). That plus your medical records proved you were safe enough to own a gun. Yes the system wasn't perfect and a few nutcases fell through, but nevertheless our system produced about 1 mass shooting every decade, The USA seems to have one every week, somewhere.
Oh, I wasn't comparing Jaywalking to murder, you did.

We don't have one every week, you lying asshole....

Every mass public shooting in the United States going back to 1982.....documented by extreme, left wing, extreme, anti-gun, Mother Jones....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases.
-------

• Here is a description of the criteria we use:
  
  • The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
  • The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
  • The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.) Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).
  • Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
  • We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
  ----------------------

Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.



---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...



US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2021...6
2020....2

2019....10

2018... 12

2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

 

[2aguy]

Oh good grief, I could equally state that guns protect and feed deranged psychopaths and sociopaths, rapists, robbers. The lives taken by guns cause life shattering trauma.

And the lives saved from rape, robbery, murder, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings, are lives saved from that same trauma....

According to the Centers for Disease control this happens 1.1 million times a year......

According to the Dept. of Justice this happens 1.5 million times a year.....

Now...while you are here...answer the following questions...

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
======
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?

 

[M14 Shooter]

 

[2aguy]

You said there were no school shootings in 2017.

Please explain why you ignore these shootings.

2017 Aztec High School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rancho Tehama shootings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Freeman High School (Washington) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I didn't ignore those shootings, they don't meet the FBI standard for mass public shootings....so much so Mother JOnes didn't even record them at the lower standard of 3 victims killed in the event, and even the anti-gun extremists, like you who pray to your god, "Government," didn't see these stories in the news so you could dance on the bodies of the dead, and smear their blood all over yourselves...

Lets tak a look and see what we find...



The standard for a mass public shooting according to the FBI is 3 killed...it used to be 4, but when there weren't enough mass public shootings to get news for obama's new gun control push, he loweered the standard to 3 people killed...

This didn't even meet that standard...

2017 Aztec High School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1). This shooter was another shooter the FBI new about...they knew who he was and investigated him...this is something that seems to happen a lot.........

2) He killed 2 people, not 3, so this doesn't qualify as a mass public shooting.....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases.
-------

• Here is a description of the criteria we use:
  
  • The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
  • The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
  • The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.) Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).
  • Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
  • We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
  ----------------------

Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.

 

[2aguy]

You said there were no school shootings in 2017.

Please explain why you ignore these shootings.

2017 Aztec High School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rancho Tehama shootings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Freeman High School (Washington) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So....if we buck the actual definition and include the Aztec shooting....

That makes 2 killed in public school shootings in 2017....

The Tehama school shooting wasn't a school shooting.....no one at the school was killed, he killed people before he got to the school and was trying to kill a child related to him......

Again, no one was killed at the school so it didn't trip the mass public shooting tracker at Mother JOnes, or even here on U.S.message....

Thing to note.......he had a restraining order and had his guns confiscated well before the shooting....and got guns illegally for the shooting, school was a gun free zone..

Rancho Tehama shootings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

0 students or staff killed at the school

So....2017.....if you include the first school....2 killed.......in 2017 in school type shooting...out of 73 million children in the U.S...

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

You morons keep trying to lie about Kleck, but everytime anti-gun researchers try to refute him with their own studies they come back with almost the same numbers....

You guys focus on Kleck in the hope people will not notice the 18 other studies that show the same thing Kleck found....here...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

ANOTHER survey?

Survey's aren't factual, same crap Kleck tried nd failed.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

Shit head....

Moron.

This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.

Most of the defensive gun uses did not involve even firing the gun....you moron...which means the criminal ran off, or surrendered .........and in most of those cases, the police would not have even recorded the use of a gun, you idiot....

This shows how deceptive you idiots are....

No, it shows how gullible you morons are.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Moron.
No, it shows how gullible you morons are.

Thank you for your mindless, zero-content response.