London on Lockdown

[St.Blues]

Thanks to the BIG BROTHER SECURITY CAMERAS that apparently are ubiquitous in England, the police are now visiting and arresting some of the riots who were caught on camera.


Okay, lovers of freedom, which offends you more?

The anarchists who rioted, or the police Big Brother survelliance system which is now responsible for rounding them up?

Seriously, lovers of freedom, which of these two things offends your sensibilities most?

Lol! The only ones to fear CCTV cameras are those up to no good! To be honest, given the scum that roams our sytreets these days, I am glad we have them. People like me have nothing to fear from them.

Last time I was in London and riding the tube it gave me the creeps to know that I was being filmed.

Ravi, I need your permission to have some fun with this one... What do you say?
Can I go for it?

Blues

 

[Intense]

This is yet one more example how our anti-big government cons are anything but.

You are sweet Ravi, but clueless. Sorry. When was the last time you entered a shop that did not have surveillance? Why is that you suppose? Private Property Surveillance, Commercial Property Surveillance? Bank Surveillance? 7-11, Mass Transit? Why is that?
Are there boundaries and limits? Yes, as there should be. Bath Rooms, Changing Rooms, should be off limits, any area that requires privacy should be.
Why go there Ravi? Why inject false notion? Slow news cycle day? No.

What happens when by some twist of fate the EDL gain rule of Britain and we are no longer a democracy.

Even in smaller ways this spying of people can be misused. Even with all our CCTV cameras 80% of crime remains unsolved

Tens of thousands of CCTV cameras, yet 80% of crime unsolved | News

or

1,000 CCTV cameras to solve just one crime, Met Police admits - Telegraph

Is it really worth the risks and invasion into our privacy.

On a Public Street it is not an invasion of your privacy. I strongly support the Right to Privacy, and often wonder why it was left out of our Bill of Rights. Still, a Public Street or Center is not Private.

 

[alexa]

You are sweet Ravi, but clueless. Sorry. When was the last time you entered a shop that did not have surveillance? Why is that you suppose? Private Property Surveillance, Commercial Property Surveillance? Bank Surveillance? 7-11, Mass Transit? Why is that?
Are there boundaries and limits? Yes, as there should be. Bath Rooms, Changing Rooms, should be off limits, any area that requires privacy should be.
Why go there Ravi? Why inject false notion? Slow news cycle day? No.

What happens when by some twist of fate the EDL gain rule of Britain and we are no longer a democracy.

Even in smaller ways this spying of people can be misused. Even with all our CCTV cameras 80% of crime remains unsolved

Tens of thousands of CCTV cameras, yet 80% of crime unsolved | News

or

1,000 CCTV cameras to solve just one crime, Met Police admits - Telegraph

Is it really worth the risks and invasion into our privacy.

On a Public Street it is not an invasion of your privacy. I strongly support the Right to Privacy, and often wonder why it was left out of our Bill of Rights. Still, a Public Street or Center is not Private.

Well I can remember when we used to manage without surveillance and no problems at all.

There is no question that agreeing with all this surveillance is trusting that it will be used with discretion.

It has potential danger to me, particular as I said should some undesirables manage to take power which is not something you can say could never happen.

But back to that BBC report on the British surveillance society and other issues

There are up to 4.2m CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people.

But surveillance ranges from US security agencies monitoring telecommunications traffic passing through Britain, to key stroke information used to gauge work rates and GPS information tracking company vehicles, the Report on the Surveillance Society says.

It predicts that by 2016 shoppers could be scanned as they enter stores, schools could bring in cards allowing parents to monitor what their children eat, and jobs may be refused to applicants who are seen as a health risk.

"We have more CCTV cameras and we have looser laws on privacy and data protection," he said.

"We really do have a society which is premised both on state secrecy and the state not giving up its supposed right to keep information under control while, at the same time, wanting to know as much as it can about us."

The report coincides with the publication by the human rights group Privacy International of figures that suggest Britain is the worst Western democracy at protecting individual privacy.

The two worst countries in the 36-nation survey are Malaysia and China, and Britain is one of the bottom five with "endemic surveillance".

Mr Thomas called for a debate about the risks if information gathered is wrong or falls into the wrong hands.

We've got to say where do we want the lines to be drawn? How much do we want to have surveillance changing the nature of society in a democratic nation?" he told the BBC.

BBC NEWS | UK | Britain is 'surveillance society'

 

[California Girl]

I'm quite enjoying the 'swift' justice that's being delivered in England. I find it very entertaining that the police are kicking in doors and arresting these little assholes.

Now we have some interesting dilemmas:

They can evict the families of some of these thugs... those that are in social housing and have signed 'behavior contracts'. But is that a good thing to do? Where do they go? Does it solve anything?

They can withdraw benefits from those who are claiming... but if they do that, surely, those people are going to turn to yet more crime - because they will have no money.

Tricky shit.

 

[High_Gravity]

I'm quite enjoying the 'swift' justice that's being delivered in England. I find it very entertaining that the police are kicking in doors and arresting these little assholes.

Now we have some interesting dilemmas:

They can evict the families of some of these thugs... those that are in social housing and have signed 'behavior contracts'. But is that a good thing to do? Where do they go? Does it solve anything?

They can withdraw benefits from those who are claiming... but if they do that, surely, those people are going to turn to yet more crime - because they will have no money.

Tricky shit.

Maybe a Guantenamo style prison camp?

 

[alexa]

They can evict the families of some of these thugs... those that are in social housing and have signed 'behavior contracts'. But is that a good thing to do? Where do they go? Does it solve anything?


Tricky shit.

That is a potential nightmare as if they do and they are families which they likely will be they will probably move them to another area. Not only that, certainly in Scotland they try to move them to better areas in the home that will improve their behaviour but obviously it just gives the new people the problem.

 

[California Girl]

They can evict the families of some of these thugs... those that are in social housing and have signed 'behavior contracts'. But is that a good thing to do? Where do they go? Does it solve anything?


Tricky shit.

That is a potential nightmare as if they do and they are families which they likely will be they will probably move them to another area. Not only that, certainly in Scotland they try to move them to better areas in the home that will improve their behaviour but obviously it just gives the new people the problem.

I am leaning towards some good old 'restorative justice' for many of these kids. Not the ringleaders, but the followers. Kids are quite easily led and tend not to consider the consequence of their actions. That does not mean we should excuse their behavior completely. I would suggest that they are made to go back into the communities they have devastated and clean up after themselves - of course, much of the 'clean up' has been done but they can help rebuild what they damaged.... and it would teach them practical skills as well as having them pay back their communities.

I can see a benefit in moving them. If those kids had burned my home, I would not want them back living near me with no consequence.

I am all for a total review of the education system too. Stop trying to ram all these kids into universities. Most of them are not capable of achieving a degree and it would be pointless. You need more apprenticeships and vocational courses in schools to help these kids get skills that are desperately needed in the UK. And, you need to stop this out of control immigration - so that these kids have jobs.

 

[English Dave]

The benefits culture has to be tackled, many past governments have said they are going
to, but nothing changes. It can't be right that hard working Britons, go to work, and end
up with less than people sitting at home contributing nothing, and many with no intention
of doing so. We can't go on with girls deliberately getting pregnant to gey social housing.
There are couples who try to do things the right way, trying to get social housing waiting
for many years on lists, with single girls jumping above them on the waiting list by getting
pregnant. We can't carry on with immigrants coming here and getting social housing ahead
of English people because their need is seen as greater, because English couples may be
living with parents. This is unfair and unjust.

 

[High_Gravity]

The benefits culture has to be tackled, many past governments have said they are going
to, but nothing changes. It can't be right that hard working Britons, go to work, and end
up with less than people sitting at home contributing nothing, and many with no intention
of doing so. We can't go on with girls deliberately getting pregnant to gey social housing.
There are couples who try to do things the right way, trying to get social housing waiting
for many years on lists, with single girls jumping above them on the waiting list by getting
pregnant. We can't carry on with immigrants coming here and getting social housing ahead
of English people because their need is seen as greater, because English couples may be
living with parents. This is unfair and unjust.

Very good points Dave.

 

[English Dave]

I can get very emotional about all this, and I know this board is not the place for that. I
just despair at where we're heading. As others have said, there are facist groups watching
and waiting. I well remember history books telling us what happened in Germany in the
early 30s when Hitler came to power. The probems are so massive I fear the government
will make all the right noises for a time, then slip back because the problems are
overwhelming. To tackle this properly will take enormous courage and determination. I hope
someone has the guts to do it.

 

[Ravi]

The benefits culture has to be tackled, many past governments have said they are going
to, but nothing changes. It can't be right that hard working Britons, go to work, and end
up with less than people sitting at home contributing nothing, and many with no intention
of doing so. We can't go on with girls deliberately getting pregnant to gey social housing.
There are couples who try to do things the right way, trying to get social housing waiting
for many years on lists, with single girls jumping above them on the waiting list by getting
pregnant. We can't carry on with immigrants coming here and getting social housing ahead
of English people because their need is seen as greater, because English couples may be
living with parents. This is unfair and unjust.

I have to laugh at this combined with your subsequent post.

Sounds to me like you are one of those fascists you worry about.

 

[alexa]

They can evict the families of some of these thugs... those that are in social housing and have signed 'behavior contracts'. But is that a good thing to do? Where do they go? Does it solve anything?


Tricky shit.

That is a potential nightmare as if they do and they are families which they likely will be they will probably move them to another area. Not only that, certainly in Scotland they try to move them to better areas in the home that will improve their behaviour but obviously it just gives the new people the problem.

I am leaning towards some good old 'restorative justice' for many of these kids. Not the ringleaders, but the followers. Kids are quite easily led and tend not to consider the consequence of their actions. That does not mean we should excuse their behavior completely. I would suggest that they are made to go back into the communities they have devastated and clean up after themselves - of course, much of the 'clean up' has been done but they can help rebuild what they damaged.... and it would teach them practical skills as well as having them pay back their communities.

That was suggested on Question Time last night. It could result in them also learning some skills which could be of benefit to them for getting a job. Done properly it could be very positive.

I can see a benefit in moving them. If those kids had burned my home, I would not want them back living near me with no consequence.

Thing is a lot were not doing damage in their own community and they know that. If they were damaging their own community there would be a case for that but I get the impression it is just going to happen regardless of what they have done and if they had been no problems to the community would seem silly. It is just going to move the problem on - according to Cameron to private housing.

I think it would be good if things were a bit more fluid than they seem to be. For instance one 23 year old with no criminal record, on his way home with his girlfriend came upon a shop which had been looted and thought what the hell and took some water worth just over £3. He has been given a 6 month prison sentence. I think that is ridiculous. Of course what he did was wrong, but he was not out looting, just a bad decision in a moment may cost him his adult life - or I guess that will go to appeal.

I am all for a total review of the education system too. Stop trying to ram all these kids into universities. Most of them are not capable of achieving a degree and it would be pointless. You need more apprenticeships and vocational courses in schools to help these kids get skills that are desperately needed in the UK. And, you need to stop this out of control immigration - so that these kids have jobs.

well according to that teacher whose article I put in earlier their are a regular 13 - 20% who barely learn to read. If a kid does not get reading by 7 they usually never do - or at least that was what it used to be like.

I would not be in favour of anything resembling the old secondary modern's. You simply cannot tell a person's potential at that young age but I would at least like to see no child getting to seven without learning to read and write (unless of course their is a genuine reason for it). There really isn't any reason why these kids should not be able to achieve as well as anyone else. The previous governments 'early start' was beginning to see results. Unfortunately all these things have been dramatically cut. They need to know that they can aspire to just the same as anyone else and that can of course include apprentiships.

You also need to deal with social support as there does not seem to be that much going on in the family, so you need good, strong community workers.

What the heck, there is only one thing for it - increase taxes

 

[Colin]

This is yet one more example how our anti-big government cons are anything but.

You are sweet Ravi, but clueless. Sorry. When was the last time you entered a shop that did not have surveillance? Why is that you suppose? Private Property Surveillance, Commercial Property Surveillance? Bank Surveillance? 7-11, Mass Transit? Why is that?
Are there boundaries and limits? Yes, as there should be. Bath Rooms, Changing Rooms, should be off limits, any area that requires privacy should be.
Why go there Ravi? Why inject false notion? Slow news cycle day? No.

What happens when by some twist of fate the EDL gain rule of Britain and we are no longer a democracy.

Even in smaller ways this spying of people can be misused. Even with all our CCTV cameras 80% of crime remains unsolved

Tens of thousands of CCTV cameras, yet 80% of crime unsolved | News

or

1,000 CCTV cameras to solve just one crime, Met Police admits - Telegraph

Is it really worth the risks and invasion into our privacy.

Now I know you're a nutcase. The EDL gain control! You mean that bunch of hairy arsed racist skinheads who couldn't even put a candidate up for election! Give us a break!

 

[Colin]

The benefits culture has to be tackled, many past governments have said they are going
to, but nothing changes. It can't be right that hard working Britons, go to work, and end
up with less than people sitting at home contributing nothing, and many with no intention
of doing so. We can't go on with girls deliberately getting pregnant to gey social housing.
There are couples who try to do things the right way, trying to get social housing waiting
for many years on lists, with single girls jumping above them on the waiting list by getting
pregnant. We can't carry on with immigrants coming here and getting social housing ahead
of English people because their need is seen as greater, because English couples may be
living with parents. This is unfair and unjust.

I have to laugh at this combined with your subsequent post.

Sounds to me like you are one of those fascists you worry about.

Really? That's as ridiculous as saying you're a communist...oh, wait....

 

[English Dave]

You won't quieten me with your insults Ravi. You seem to think what I say is fascist. What
do you base that on - do you say my statements are untrue? What do you think can be
done to solve these major problems? Or do you think it'll all work itself out in the end? I
used to think that years ago, that is not the case any more. We have been cowed by
governments and their agencies for many years while they carried out their social
experiments on us - look at the results.

 

[alexa]

This is yet one more example how our anti-big government cons are anything but.

You are sweet Ravi, but clueless. Sorry. When was the last time you entered a shop that did not have surveillance? Why is that you suppose? Private Property Surveillance, Commercial Property Surveillance? Bank Surveillance? 7-11, Mass Transit? Why is that?
Are there boundaries and limits? Yes, as there should be. Bath Rooms, Changing Rooms, should be off limits, any area that requires privacy should be.
Why go there Ravi? Why inject false notion? Slow news cycle day? No.

What happens when by some twist of fate the EDL gain rule of Britain and we are no longer a democracy.

Even in smaller ways this spying of people can be misused. Even with all our CCTV cameras 80% of crime remains unsolved

Tens of thousands of CCTV cameras, yet 80% of crime unsolved | News

or

1,000 CCTV cameras to solve just one crime, Met Police admits - Telegraph

Is it really worth the risks and invasion into our privacy.

Your reply to this ghook

London on Lockdown 08-12-2011 04:37 PM GHook93 Shut up you dumb whore, you don't own shit, you were probably one of the looter! Fuck bitch!

pretty much confirms what I have sussed about you. You are one of those Gobal anti-muslim extremists aren't you, possibly also a Christian Zionist wanting the lot for yourself. Continue to be insane. It is of no interest to me but I will not support your friends the EDL thugs who were in cahoot with Breivik. God you are so sad supporting the friends of a terrorist child killer.

 

[Ravi]

You won't quieten me with your insults Ravi. You seem to think what I say is fascist. What
do you base that on - do you say my statements are untrue? What do you think can be
done to solve these major problems? Or do you think it'll all work itself out in the end? I
used to think that years ago, that is not the case any more. We have been cowed by
governments and their agencies for many years while they carried out their social
experiments on us - look at the results.

I didn't mean it as an insult, just a fact.

 

[Ravi]

You are sweet Ravi, but clueless. Sorry. When was the last time you entered a shop that did not have surveillance? Why is that you suppose? Private Property Surveillance, Commercial Property Surveillance? Bank Surveillance? 7-11, Mass Transit? Why is that?
Are there boundaries and limits? Yes, as there should be. Bath Rooms, Changing Rooms, should be off limits, any area that requires privacy should be.
Why go there Ravi? Why inject false notion? Slow news cycle day? No.

What happens when by some twist of fate the EDL gain rule of Britain and we are no longer a democracy.

Even in smaller ways this spying of people can be misused. Even with all our CCTV cameras 80% of crime remains unsolved

Tens of thousands of CCTV cameras, yet 80% of crime unsolved | News

or

1,000 CCTV cameras to solve just one crime, Met Police admits - Telegraph

Is it really worth the risks and invasion into our privacy.

Your reply to this ghook

London on Lockdown 08-12-2011 04:37 PM GHook93 Shut up you dumb whore, you don't own shit, you were probably one of the looter! Fuck bitch!

pretty much confirms what I have sussed about you. You are one of those Gobal anti-muslim extremists aren't you, possibly also a Christian Zionist wanting the lot for yourself. Continue to be insane. It is of no interest to me but I will not support your friends the EDL thugs who were in cahoot with Breivik. God you are a sad would be killer of children.

He's a Jew. And there's nothing wrong with being a Zionist.

 

[Tank]

Ravi thinks if England became 100% Muslim, nothing would change.

You know "people are people"

 

[editec]

Well this event certainly gave us the opprtunity to see how the question of RIGHT TO PRIVACY and the RIGHT TO BE SAFE can bring us to conflict does it not?

Englands people are the most scrutinized people in the world techically speaking.

Are they safer as a result?

I can't help but note here that some the people on this board who insist they hate the NANNY STATE and government's insinating themselves into their lifes, feel okay about this obvious SURVEILLANCE STATISM.

What this show us is that it is EASY to take a lotfy philosophical position that sounds like you love freedom more than everybody else.

But implementing that noble philosophy in the REAL WORLD?

Well then one might find oneself backing down a bit from that former position.

The difference between one's ideology and implementation of that ideology can be rather vast.