Mistakes Atheists Make

[emilynghiem]

[

I'm sure that all the people in hell are relieved to know that God loves them unconditionally....

I'm sure they wish they had listened and accepted His gift while they had the chance, like this guy:

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

[/QUOTE]

Doesn't sound very unconditional to me....[/QUOTE]

Hi Vandalshandle and Irishram:
Can the unconditional but absolute law of justice be explained this way

EITHER WAY you get the justice you give:
A. if you choose the path of unforgiveness and ill will towards others,
if you judge and punish, reject and divide
and seek RETRIBUTION or "Retributive Justice"
then you get this back in return. You are judged by how you judge others.

So if there is meanness, mocking, ill will, resentment, negativity, fear, etc.
then that is how you are treated in return.
If you see this as punishment, and you believe in punishing others this way,
then you get exactly what you give out.
If you see this as learning from consequences, and see that corrections
is the purpose, if you allow others to correct their wrongs, others will allow you the same graces.

B. so the other path is forgiveness and good will towards others.
if we seek to mutually forgive and correct wrongs between us,
to restore justice and peace within good faith relations,
this is the path of Restorative Justice that heals and brings harmony and balance.

If you show mercy to others in allowing corrections,
and sharing responsibility for any restitution owed for wrongs we commit,
then we work together to rebuild relations in the spirit of Truth Peace and Justice.

So God's law is UNCONDITIONAL

The gift of Restorative Justice and the healing that comes with Forgiveness
so there can be correction and restitution to restore human relations
is ALWAYS offered freely for the asking.

We just have to ASK and AGREE to receive forgiveness
and this process works naturally. it is always present.

But it is chosen by FREE WILL.

So we have choice A or B.
Either way God's laws are consistent and teach us
the Consequences of our actions.

If we choose A we beget more of the same and experience the cycle of retribution.

If we choose B we break the cycle of retribution and bring correction and healing instead of war over conflicts.

Either way, the laws and love of Truth Justice and Peace
are present and still operate. The point of letting us experience the consequences
of both choices A and B, is that we learn by comparison and example.
We study the causes and effects of problems, and decide which way
works better: do we want to continue suffering from past issues repeating
because we refuse to forgive each other and correct the problems dividing us?
or do we want to end the cycles of abuse and suffering, and find more
effective ways to prevent problems, by working together on corrections to them?

No matter what conditions we are under, or choose to follow,
the same process is still working. We get the justice we give.
We learn by comparing the two paths, so we can use our
free will and reason by conscience to decide what is most effective.

The same laws of justice, of cause and effect, work "either way":
If we choose ill will and destruction, those laws will lead to more of the same negative cycles.
If we choose good will and restoration, those laws will lead to more positive growth.

 

[hipeter924]

1) Defining atheism
In the golden age of atheism (late 1800's) atheism was generally held to be "the doctrine or belief that there is no God". Today some atheists prefer to define atheism as merely "lack of belief in God". While I appreciate the intellectual retreat the new definition represents, this new definition is illogical. According to the 2nd definition those who know or think there is a God are atheists, which is absurd.

Actually atheism falls into three categories:

1. Agnostic Atheism: It is unlikely there is a god, and no evidence exists to convince me there is one.
2. De facto Atheism: I should live my life without holding a belief in a god, as the existence of a god is highly improbable.
3. Strong Atheism: I believe there is no god, with the same level of faith as those that feel the contrary.

Most Atheists are either 2 or 3, so it is rare to find a Strong Atheist, who would actually meet the 'doctrine or belief there is no god' part. Most would meet the definition of not holding a belief in a god.

2) Burden of proof
Atheists often say theists must shoulder the burden of proof since theists claim there is a God. However, atheists are also making a claim: theism is an ill-considered position. So atheists should also bear the burden of proof.

Atheists are not arguing that a god exists, but arguing that there is no proof as we know it for the existence of a god. Strong Atheists might argue that there is no god, and point out empirical evidence that points to that position, though a burden of proof if it exists would be slight for Atheists considering they are trying to prove the non-existence of something that can't be empirically measured like we can with elements in the universe.

3) Radical skepticism
Some atheists are radical skeptics, but radical skepticism is self-defeating. As Wittgenstein said: “If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.”

A belief in god isn't necessary to live your life, nor is it necessary for the reverse. Just because someone believes the world is flat, doesn't mean that someone can't also believe in gravity and the existence of the self.

4) Hard materialism
Can atheists prove only the material world exists?

They don't need to prove or disprove it, as the existence or qualities of the universe is not in question. While it could be argued the existence of other dimensions is possible, from that you can't then argue the existence of a god. In fact the premise a god exists, does not require the universe to exist to be proved or disproved.

5) Atheism and tolerance
According to one estimate over 25 million Christians died from secular antireligious violence in the 20th century.
Psychology Religion and Spirituality - James M. Nelson - Google Books

Yet, that isn't correct. Atheism alone has never been a sole cause of violence, nor has religion. Communism was an ideology that did oppose religious belief, but it did not justify the persecution of religion in itself - if this James M. Nelson knew anything about the motivations of non-religious or religious movements then he would realize it depends on whether those involved are authoritarian or believe in individualism. For instance while non-statist Communists didn't like religion, they were individualists, whereas state Communists were authoritarians who believed in imposing their ideology by force.

By the logic of the source, if a belief or value can be used by those with malicious purposes, it is the fault of the belief or value system and not those that use it. Rather flaky logic, because that logic could be used to argue anything, including the premise that because cows can cause mad cow disease, farming is evil.

6) Atheism and happiness
BBC NEWS Health Religion linked to happy life

Depends on the geopolitical location, and the education level of those surveyed. According to PEW, Agnostics and Atheists are higher educated than the rest of the US population: Demographics of the Religiously Unaffiliated Pew Research Center s Religion Public Life Project
Religious demographic|High School or less |Some College |College Grad|Post-Grad|
Atheist Agnostic 26% 30% 25% 19%
White Catholic 35% 28% 20% 17%
Seems more a case of being happier due to ignorance, than to anything to do with an ideology or belief in something.

7) Atheists' recurring intellectual cowardice and laziness
Atheists seem eager to ridicule the least educated while avoiding the most educated Christians.
Atheists The Origin of the Species by Nick Spencer reviewed.

Dawkins, Hitchens and many other well known Atheists debated well educated Christians all the time, sometimes they win debates and other times they lose them. Funny how you can argue that all 'new atheists' are 'intellectual cowards' or 'lazy', when at the same time equating all atheists with Nietzsche. It would be like equating all capitalists with Keynes, and arguing that all capitalists believe as Keynes does.

 

[emilynghiem]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am curious as to your outlook on the bold sentence above.

I am agnostic, as you know. So when I do good deeds (which I do frequently), if I do not perform my deeds in the name of God, if I merely act out of goodness because it is in my nature and I consciously choose to act, "God" (as you perceive him) is indifferent to the good I have done? My choice to be kind to strangers or helpful and loving to those around me means nothing to God because I have not sworn my soul to him?

Not looking for an argument in the slightest and I will not be the least bit offended or otherwise trespassed upon, no matter how you answer. My interest is simply piqued.

@shart_attack

Hi Pennywise: What God's love or truth represents is being "unconditional"

so if we are "unconditional" with our charity, we do it for lovesake, humanity's sake, justice sake,
and not for our own expectation, reward or consequences we want for ourselves,
then it should not have "conditions" attached that make it selfish and material.

Some people give to charity for show, to publicize or make a statement.

Others give quietly not for show, but to help someone and it is not for credit or for personal gain.

Also it goes the other way.

We cannot give and be resentful, and then get angry when what we gave didn't produce the outcome we wanted.
that is not "unconditional" either.

When we give for the sake of giving, share for the sake of sharing,
love for the sake of loving. When love is sufficient unto love and does not need to be returned or appreciated,
but just expressed for its own sake, that is what it means to have the unconditional love that God represents.

It is not the LABEL that makes it God's love, but the SPIRIT of it
that determines if conditions were attached or not.

Just because you call a daisy a rose does not make it a rose.
Likewise, even if you call a rose a flower, it is still a rose whether or not you call it that.

it is not the "label on the outside" but the content and intent that matters.

 

[emilynghiem]

It doesn't matter what we deserve, God loves us unconditionally, even when we stray away from him.

Except when they don't love you unconditionally and wipe the planet because you were a disappointment. Have you ever actually read any of the bibles?

Actually I have. If you had, you'd know why the flood was necessary. It wiped the planet of nephilim, not humans. The 8 humans left were preserved by God. He loves us unconditionally, not the other way around. It's why we are still here.

I'm sure that all the people in hell are relieved to know that God loves them unconditionally....

Lol you believe that God loves everyone unconditionally?

????

MaxGrit are you poking fun because someone who claims not to believe in God
is citing this concept of God loving everyone unconditionally?

Is that what makes you LOL, the irony?

MG do you believe that it is not God's will that any soul be lost,
and that the purpose of Christ Jesus is to save all humanity.

So that even those who go through hell shall come to be saved through Christ?

I believe God's will is supreme, and God wills to save all humanity.
So the process of Christ Jesus bringing salvation is going to
save all souls from hell. The hell and burning and lake of fire
will burn away the impurities until these are no more; they
will forever exist "in history" as lessons we carry to learn and teach from.

But hell will not keep repeating and claiming people.
The point of Christ is to vanquish all that.

So the Bible is true that every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall confess, every eye will see, ear will hear and heart will receive.

No matter what consequences people have to pay for the past,
the point is to atone for all these and transform through Christ
Jesus or Restorative Justice to right all wrongs and heal all wounds.

So humanity will fully receive forgiveness, grace and salvation.

Since all people are included, that means God's love and
Kingdom include all his children. The ones who are lost
will be restored, because God's will and way is absolute.

 

[shart_attack]

I take it you think good works are irrelevant to God. I disagree.

Not entirely, nope: not what I'm saying.

You're making the mistake of inferring a bit much.

But just because you brought it up: without Faith in salvation by Grace, works most certainly are immaterial to God.

I have another point, though.

When you say things like ...

But atheists study Scripture, they memorize Biblical passages, they engage people in furious debate, all to prove that they don't believe in God, and no one else should either.

Who does God prefer? The indifferent semi-believer or the furious, but dedicated, opponent?

... you are presuming to know the mind of God. And that's both naive and dangerous, as one should never, ever presume to know the mind of God.

You know who is most famous for having done that, yes?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

ISAIAH CHAPTER 14

In other words, ^ the elder son ^ in Christ's parable of The Prodigal Son.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am curious as to your outlook on the bold sentence above.

I am agnostic, as you know. So when I do good deeds (which I do frequently), if I do not perform my deeds in the name of God, if I merely act out of goodness because it is in my nature and I consciously choose to act, "God" (as you perceive him) is indifferent to the good I have done? My choice to be kind to strangers or helpful and loving to those around me means nothing to God because I have not sworn my soul to him?

Not looking for an argument in the slightest and I will not be the least bit offended or otherwise trespassed upon, no matter how you answer. My interest is simply piqued.

@shart_attack

God has no pleasure in the deaths of the overtly, egregiously wicked nor those among us who are sinners by mere token of the concept of original sin.

Ezekiel 33 11 Say to them As surely as I live declares the Sovereign LORD I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn Turn from your evil ways Why will you die people of Israel

 

[Pennywise]

I take it you think good works are irrelevant to God. I disagree.

Not entirely, nope: not what I'm saying.

You're making the mistake of inferring a bit much.

But just because you brought it up: without Faith in salvation by Grace, works most certainly are immaterial to God.

I have another point, though.

When you say things like ...

But atheists study Scripture, they memorize Biblical passages, they engage people in furious debate, all to prove that they don't believe in God, and no one else should either.

Who does God prefer? The indifferent semi-believer or the furious, but dedicated, opponent?

... you are presuming to know the mind of God. And that's both naive and dangerous, as one should never, ever presume to know the mind of God.

You know who is most famous for having done that, yes?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

ISAIAH CHAPTER 14

In other words, ^ the elder son ^ in Christ's parable of The Prodigal Son.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am curious as to your outlook on the bold sentence above.

I am agnostic, as you know. So when I do good deeds (which I do frequently), if I do not perform my deeds in the name of God, if I merely act out of goodness because it is in my nature and I consciously choose to act, "God" (as you perceive him) is indifferent to the good I have done? My choice to be kind to strangers or helpful and loving to those around me means nothing to God because I have not sworn my soul to him?

Not looking for an argument in the slightest and I will not be the least bit offended or otherwise trespassed upon, no matter how you answer. My interest is simply piqued.

@shart_attack

God has no pleasure in the deaths of the overtly, egregiously wicked nor those among us who are sinners by mere token of the concept of original sin.

Ezekiel 33 11 Say to them As surely as I live declares the Sovereign LORD I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn Turn from your evil ways Why will you die people of Israel

Too vague, son. Spill it.

 

[MaxGrit]

The atheists I know in real life love me because I tell them the truth. I know that Jesus Christ is the only way to get to Heaven. Therefore, I tell people I know exactly that. Accordingly, it follows that I will tell them that without faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they will go to Hell.

I love them as I love myself, and because I love them as I love myself, I try to teach them about Jesus Christ.

Conversely, if I didn't know the gospel of Jesus Christ, I would love and appreciate others telling me about Jesus Christ. I would love for them to warn me about Hell.

For one, they don't love you for telling them your belief. They either pitty or laugh at you behind your back. They put up with you. Just realize that when you see them from now on. They are lying to you if they say otherwise.

It is God's Providence that all the atheists I know in real life are not insane. They are rational and logical. I take a bit of time to show them why atheism is stupid and illogical. It takes some time for them to understand but after that those atheists I personally witness to, about Jesus Christ, believes me.

It make you angry to hear that I tell people I know about the reality of Hell and they love me for it. It's sad that you don't have the kind of loving relationship with others where both of you are free to express thoughts and emotions to each other without any worry.

I feel sorry for you bobo. It appears that you only have shallow relationship with people that doesn't love you, would lie to you about what they think, and laugh behind your back. You must feel very lonely.

 

[emilynghiem]

The atheists I know in real life love me because I tell them the truth. I know that Jesus Christ is the only way to get to Heaven. Therefore, I tell people I know exactly that. Accordingly, it follows that I will tell them that without faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they will go to Hell.

I love them as I love myself, and because I love them as I love myself, I try to teach them about Jesus Christ.

Conversely, if I didn't know the gospel of Jesus Christ, I would love and appreciate others telling me about Jesus Christ. I would love for them to warn me about Hell.

For one, they don't love you for telling them your belief. They either pitty or laugh at you behind your back. They put up with you. Just realize that when you see them from now on. They are lying to you if they say otherwise.

It is God's Providence that all the atheists I know in real life are not insane. They are rational and logical. I take a bit of time to show them why atheism is stupid and illogical. It takes some time for them to understand but after that those atheists I personally witness to, about Jesus Christ, believes me.

It make you angry to hear that I tell people I know about the reality of Hell and they love me for it. It's sad that you don't have the kind of loving relationship with others where both of you are free to express thoughts and emotions to each other without any worry.

I feel sorry for you bobo. It appears that you only have shallow relationship with people that doesn't love you, would lie to you about what they think, and laugh behind your back. You must feel very lonely.

Hi MaxGrit: I see great wisdom in why God would create nontheists and secular humanist to see things
in terms of natural laws.

by using science and reason, ALONG with faith, this provides TWO witnesses or sources.

So that where these two approaches AGREE on truth, there is confirmation, harmony and balance.

Max do you believe when Jesus says that there are two folds of the one flock.
And he is still governing both.

Do you believe the natural laws of the gentiles are fulfilled in Christ Jesus as Lord of all lords or laws.
Equally as the spiritual laws of the churched people through scripture given by God.

So you believe BOTH folds of the one flock are joined in the spirit of Christ.

If so, what is wrong with having gentiles understand Christ Jesus through natural laws as Equal Justice
while believers under scriptural authority understand Christ Jesus as Salvation that way.

Doesn't the same authority of Jesus as Justice fulfill ALL laws
of both the church and state, the sacred scriptures and the secular laws,
laws of God and laws of man.

Colossians 1:16 states that all authorities visible or invisible
are created and under the Lord's authority as Lord of all lords/laws/authorities

Why not focus on how Jesus fulfills all these laws in the spirit of Truth and Justice.

Why worry that the nontheist focus on natural laws and science is in any way in conflict,
when God created all nature so that all laws of nature and science are consistent with God's laws.

To many, God's truth IS one with the laws of nature; there is no separation.

MG all laws must come from the same Source in order to be universally true.
Why this issue over science and natural laws as if this isn't compatible with Biblical laws.

 

[MaxGrit]

It doesn't matter what we deserve, God loves us unconditionally, even when we stray away from him.

Except when they don't love you unconditionally and wipe the planet because you were a disappointment. Have you ever actually read any of the bibles?

Actually I have. If you had, you'd know why the flood was necessary. It wiped the planet of nephilim, not humans. The 8 humans left were preserved by God. He loves us unconditionally, not the other way around. It's why we are still here.

I'm sure that all the people in hell are relieved to know that God loves them unconditionally....

Lol you believe that God loves everyone unconditionally?

????

MaxGrit are you poking fun because someone who claims not to believe in God
is citing this concept of God loving everyone unconditionally?

Is that what makes you LOL, the irony?

MG do you believe that it is not God's will that any soul be lost,
and that the purpose of Christ Jesus is to save all humanity.

So that even those who go through hell shall come to be saved through Christ?

I believe God's will is supreme, and God wills to save all humanity.
So the process of Christ Jesus bringing salvation is going to
save all souls from hell. The hell and burning and lake of fire
will burn away the impurities until these are no more; they
will forever exist "in history" as lessons we carry to learn and teach from.

But hell will not keep repeating and claiming people.
The point of Christ is to vanquish all that.

So the Bible is true that every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall confess, every eye will see, ear will hear and heart will receive.

No matter what consequences people have to pay for the past,
the point is to atone for all these and transform through Christ
Jesus or Restorative Justice to right all wrongs and heal all wounds.

So humanity will fully receive forgiveness, grace and salvation.

Since all people are included, that means God's love and
Kingdom include all his children. The ones who are lost
will be restored, because God's will and way is absolute.

I chuckled at his pathetic attempt to attack God's sovereignty based on a wrong view of God.

God does not love everyone unconditionally.

I'm sorry Emily. You need to know the truth that Universal Atonement is a false doctrine.

 

[emilynghiem]

I chuckled at his pathetic attempt to attack God's sovereignty based on a wrong view of God.

God does not love everyone unconditionally.

I'm sorry Emily. You need to know the truth that Universal Atonement is a false doctrine.

OK I think I get what you mean.

God does not love everyone in the same way. We are not equal in the literal sense.
So some people are going to have a different path and require
different relationship with God than others.

I understand that.

But all people are included, so whatever wrongs
have sent people to hell, the point and process that Jesus
represents is to correct that for the bigger picture.

It does NOT mean to treat the child in school
the same way as the mass killer in prison who has proportionately more wrongs to serve restitution for.

So no, it does not mean equality in that sense.

It means that if one student only needs 2 classes and 2 months to master their lessons,
and another needs 2 programs that take 2 years,
then everyone gets what they need.

So it is not equal in the literal sense, but relatively
everyone will get what we need to fulfill our paths in life.

We deal with people in different ways, depending what their needs are.

Equal inclusion means treating each person according to what is going to work effectively.
So it is different for each person, yet all are included.

 

[emilynghiem]

I'm sorry Emily. You need to know the truth that Universal Atonement is a false doctrine.

BTW MaxGrit I do not teach Universal Salvation the way some people do.
Some people teach it as hell does not exist.
I explain it as hell can be overcome.

All people will eventually come to peace with the Salvation process of establishing Justice.

God's will and truth is more powerful than anything to the contrary
by definition of what it means for God to mean absolute knowledge, truth and will for all things.

We still have to choose to work with God's will,
so there is no shortcut for it magically happening.

We do have to choose to forgive and let God's will and truth be done.

I believe everyone will come to that understanding
and that is why there will be universal salvation.

God's will and love being perfect will compel people naturally by conscience.
So even though we have free choice and this will not be forced on us,
we will naturally choose it because it will end suffering and bring peace.

and our consciences are designed to seek satisfaction and peace
and to avoid that which causes fear, distress, pain and suffering.

by the consciences God gave us to seek what is true, consistent and stable
we will eventually come to understand and choose the higher path of greatest good which is God's will.

No other path will lead to resolution, so we will continue to suffer until we choose the path that leads to spiritual peace.

Again, Max, this is not like how other people have taught it.
So I can understand why you say it is false, the way they teach it, I don't agree either.

The true way of Salvation will be consistent with what you know.
And it will be understood by all and that is why everyone will be included.
Not by diluting or distorting it. People will really understand
the path to God's Truth and Justice which Jesus represents and fulfills.

It will change everything when we mature and reach the point of
global agreement and understanding, both individually and collectively
as one society and one humanity. So it will fulfill Salvation as expressed in the Bible
without compromising any of the other things you understand that leads to either hell or heaven.

All these things will be understood.
So everyone will be saved from suffering and there will be lasting spiritual peace.

All the hell and gnashing of teeth, burning up in the lake of fire,
will serve to purge and destroy all that is evil. So only the good
that God created will remain. That is enough to bring Universal Salvation in Christ Jesus.

You are right that we should teach how to avoid the pitfalls of hell.
This is very real and needs to be part of the message
in order to explain the full process. Once people understand
then we don't have to go through all this again. So we will build
up to establish a lasting agreement, and hell will not be chosen as a path any more
once people see they can choose the path of heavenly peace.

Thank you MaxGrit

I am equally concerned that we do not allow the false
teachings, but truly explain how forgiveness in Christ Jesus
bring salvation and ends the path to hellish suffering in all forms.

Yours truly,
In Christ Jesus may all souls be
saved, in keeping with God's will that none be lost,
and all wrongs be resolved, transformed by the authority of Christ
for the Glory of God and fulfillment of the greatest plans for humanity
which God's will represents.

Amen

 

[sealybobo]

Because I don't believe in your god? This is why I know you theists are wrong. If you are so completely off base on us atheists, what else are you dead wrong about?

Sad and Lonely? That is the kind of person that theists pray on. People who usually get real religious are usually really sad, guilty or remorse about something.

Its one of the reasons a lot of people go to church. To make friends. I don't need church to make friends and I don't think I'd want to be friends with a bunch of brainwashed idiots.

Hi sealybobo:
Can we just let the people who talk with God keep talking with God that way.

I know lots of people who work out wisdom, insights and understanding in their heads different ways.

Scientists use other methods of hashing things out, that's fine, too!

I'm sorry for all these other people who don't get it, that there is nothing wrong with being nontheistic.

Sealybobo: would you blame someone for being tone deaf, or color blind?
Some people can hear or see things that other people can't distinguish.

So what?

Just because someone is color blind, and cannot distinguish red and green because it all
looks black and white, doesn't mean colors don't exist for other people who see all kinds of things.
Some people see and experience colors outside the norm, and that has to be accounted for, too!

Why can't we be "emotionally neutral" about theist/nontheist ways of looking at LIFE
the same way we understand that a red/green colorblind person isn't going to see
the same colors as someone else.

If that's not how their eyes or brain process information, it's just not there.

Now Sealybobo, what if you ran across someone who thought colorblind people were messed up.
And they judged them for it.

Would it bother you those people are messed up and don't understand color blindness is not someone's choice?

We would KNOW that person doesn't get what's going on.

So why can't we understand that some theists are the same way.

They don't understand the reasons someone who is
just colorblind can't see these colors everyone else can see.

SB maybe someday scientists will prove from studying the brain
that there differences in perception, just like colorblindess can be explained scientifically,
where we won't panic that some people are either "theist or nontheist" in how we relate to life
and interact with the energy that flows through people and all other life in the world.

NOTE: as stated before, the real issue is not the conflict between theist/nontheist
but between forgiveness/inclusion and unforgiveness/rejection.

If you notice, if MaxGrit rejects people, he will have equal problems understanding either
you or me, regardless if we are theist or nontheist; it is the rejection that is causing problems.

if you and I can forgive and include each other as equals,
it doesn't matter if we think in theist or nontheist terms, we'll be able to work out issues logically
because we don't waste as much time insulting and backstabbing each other with blame.

That's just pure common sense, logic from experience.

People are going to be different, and see things from their angles as theist or nontheists.
Might as well embrace and work with those different ways of seeing and saying things.

The REAL issue dividing us is whether we can
forgive instead of fear our differences.

I hope this becomes more clear, so you can see how the process works.
Nobody is required to change or convert from either theism to nontheism or vice versa;
most people cannot change that anyway, like reprogramming your native language.
Most people can expand their understanding to INCLUDE the other person's ways.
but that is not the same as converting anyone to anything else.

it's about ADDING more understanding to what we already believe.
Like learning another language is ADDING vocabulary and idioms and cultural perspective.
It isn't converting people from speaking Spanish to speaking English, but ADDING
an additional language so we can communicate with more people in larger audiences.

Sorry sealybobo that this isn't taught and explained more fully to more people.

So there are both theists and atheists running around rejecting and blaming each other.

I hope this nonsense will stop, and more people will set better examples
of how we can communicate without compromising and address these other conflicts.

First step is to quit judging each other for having different systems,
and to forgive the fact people judged and blamed each other in the past.
If we can get over that, maybe we can focus on content and not freak out
that we are so different. This does not have to mean conflict!

I don't feel I have any conflicts with you or MaxGrit. I trust we can all arrive at common truths
by working out where we are clashing with how we say things, and what we think the other person means.

So if I can take those differences in stride while working through the issues,
and not see that as anything wrongful or ugly,
why can't we all learn to deal with each other's differences the same way.

Why does this have to be a negative process?
I see it as constructive and enriching that we can
share what we see going wrong and work together to correct it.

I think that is great and a credit to everyone here for seeking what is right, accurate and just.
I believe we will succeed, so of course I see this as going in a positive direction.
There is more good coming from these interactions so why not focus there?

Thanks sealybobo
please forgive the people who don't get it
and maybe they will also learn to forgive whoever they think
doesn't get it either...

Reminds me of Jesus praying, but in this case it's everyone in the same boat:
Let us agree to receive forgiveness
for we know not what we cannot understand,
and both blame each other for not understanding either.

I don't think the problem is that I can't see what they see. I think they are seeing things. Nothing tells me that I'm theistically impaired.

Why can't we be "emotionally neutral" about theist/nontheist ways of looking at LIFE? We can. This is how I live my life outside of USMB. I live and let live. I'm only here challenging theists because I think a lot of them who don't think like you are sick in the head evil hypocritical bastards.

I also know that ultimately, Christians think non christians are going to hell. So, I have a beef with that. But other than arguing on USMB, I aint gonna do anything about it. This is just where I get to come to tell them they are full of shit.

Let me know the day Christians stop saying non christians are going to hell. Not one or two of them. Show me their church endorses that position. And when they stop saying stuff like that, I'll be willing to start looking for common ground with them.

Until then, I guess I'll just try to be the best person I can be and hope one day their religion changes their position to where that's enough. They say it is not enough. You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. I just can't because I don't believe a word of the story. I'm not mad about it. I just don't buy it.

 

[emilynghiem]

1.

I don't think the problem is that I can't see what they see. I think they are seeing things. Nothing tells me that I'm theistically impaired.

RE: Why can't we be "emotionally neutral" about theist/nontheist ways of looking at LIFE?

We can. This is how I live my life outside of USMB. I live and let live. I'm only here challenging theists because I think a lot of them who don't think like you are sick in the head evil hypocritical bastards.

Hi SB MaxGrit came out and stated what the problem is.
It's NOT being theist that is conflicting,
but what we BELIEVE about the Nature of God.

I believe in universal inclusion and salvation, including the tradition way Christians teach.
not either/or but all the above, where they agree being what is confirmed as truth.

MG does not believe in how some Christians are teaching Universal Atonement which conflicts with traditional Christianity.
So that's the problem.

There are conflicting WAYS of teaching what God and Christian Salvation mean in terms of including all humanity
in the process.

SB if the problem were just believing in God, then MG and I would be done. That's it, salvation for all.
Obviously, there is more conflict to be resolved and MG hit the nail on the head.

So the issue is how do we go about teaching it inclusively WITHOUT contradicting and conflicting with each other's views.

MG and I don't even agree what we're talking about yet.
He thinks I mean some version of Atonement that makes hell less than real.

Let's resolve that first, see if we can agree on the nature of God if we are going to teach this consistently.

2.

I also know that ultimately, Christians think non christians are going to hell. So, I have a beef with that. But other than arguing on USMB, I aint gonna do anything about it. This is just where I get to come to tell them they are full of shit.

Let me know the day Christians stop saying non christians are going to hell. Not one or two of them. Show me their church endorses that position. And when they stop saying stuff like that, I'll be willing to start looking for common ground with them.

Until then, I guess I'll just try to be the best person I can be and hope one day their religion changes their position to where that's enough. They say it is not enough. You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. I just can't because I don't believe a word of the story. I'm not mad about it. I just don't buy it.

If you substitute believing in Jesus with living by Justice it makes sense.
Anyone who lives by injustice sends themselves and anyone else through hell by the anger and destruction of that path.

If you believe in being just with others as you want for yourself, and maintaining equal justice for all,
that is the same as making the commitment to live by Christ or by Conscience.

The difference is some people use the Biblical laws
some use Buddhist or Constitutional laws.

Whatever laws you commit to follow for sake of Justice or Jesus,
then Christ Jesus fulfills that path by Conscience.

So the spirit is one, the spirit of Truth and Justice for all people,
but the expression can vary if people are nontheist and live by natural laws and practical logic and ethics
such as secular humanists want to live by peace and justice for all humanity sake.

Some people use Christian laws to live by, which has the strongest tradition and following
(Jews, Christians and Muslims all under scriptural laws and authority)

But the natural laws can also be used which the same spirit of Christ Jesus fulfills as "Lord of all laws"
or the "authority of Justice" that any laws on the planet should be consistent with.

So Buddhist teachings, Constitutional laws and ethics, natural laws,
ethics, etc. can all be fulfilled in this same spirit wehre
people make the Commitment to join in unity in Christ or by Conscience to enforce the laws by Truth.

SB where I differ with MG is he seems to cite the people who drag in all kinds of religions
from Wicca to Satanic practice and say they are all the same and all will be saved.

You can't just practice anything and expect to establish peace and justice.
Not even Christianity -- there are people making false cults out of that also and abusing the religion to harm others.

So Max doesn't get what I am saying about universal inclusion and fulfillment in Christ Jesus.

Let's get that straight, and then we can talk in more specific, spelled out terms
what really causes people to go to hell
and what is the path to heavenly peace.

SB if it is really true, or "universal" for all people what this spiritual process is,
that means any atheist would also see that it is naturally true and not someone else's made up religion.

I think you are open to this understanding but other people are afraid it means to compromise and go along with falsehood.

When such people get over their fear, I believe they will experience a change in perception
and how they teach the message. So it won't be this business of "condemnation"
if people are too busy collaborating and making corrections instead.
Once they quit fearing it means to compromise and go along with lies,
then they can see how the truth really compels and drives the process forward.
it is not based on false religion as feared. What we need to focus on are universal truths. So there is no need to condemn anyone to hell, when everyone can be working things out to establish heaven or peace on earth. Why not focus there.

 

[emilynghiem]

Until then, I guess I'll just try to be the best person I can be and hope one day their religion changes their position to where that's enough. They say it is not enough. You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. I just can't because I don't believe a word of the story. I'm not mad about it. I just don't buy it.

In short, believing in Jesus to bring Salvation for humanity
means to have faith in JUSTICE to bring peace to society.

Unfortunately justice has two sides: we see both religious and political leaders
taking Justice and making retributive justice and antichrist out of it. So that is the
false religion and the abuse of church and state authority that causes hell on earth.

The side of Jesus or Justice that bring peace, healing grace and salvation from suffering
is RESTORATIVE JUSTICE

So as long as we receive and live by Restorative Justice
or Justice with Mercy which Christ Jesus represents,
then that is the commitment by conscience that saves us from the
path of retribution and endless hell.

All the good things in the Bible, Christianity and the Church we agree are positive
can be explained as consistent with Restorative Justice, peace and justice,
justice with mercy, charity for all.

All the BAD things in the Bible, Christianity and church history we see are negative
(abusive hypocritical false wrong contradictory corrupted etc.)
can be explained in terms of Retributive Justice abused for political gain and control.

So to really believe, embrace, and live by Jesus
means to fully embody the spirit and laws of Justice by conscience.

In this way, all people are made equal, as in Equal Justice
or Equal Protections of the laws where we all agree to embrace and
enforce laws consistently with love of Truth, Justice and Peace for Humanity.

There cannot be any selfish interest or false motive in it
or it is Conditional (which is relative and leaves people out or treat people unequally)
instead of Unconditional where it includes all people equally.

I believe in Universal Justice and Peace that includes all humanity.
That's how I understand Jesus means Universal Salvation for all.

 

[MaxGrit]

I'm sorry Emily. You need to know the truth that Universal Atonement is a false doctrine.

BTW MaxGrit I do not teach Universal Salvation the way some people do.
Some people teach it as hell does not exist.
I explain it as hell can be overcome.

All people will eventually come to peace with the Salvation process of establishing Justice.

God's will and truth is more powerful than anything to the contrary
by definition of what it means for God to mean absolute knowledge, truth and will for all things.

We still have to choose to work with God's will,
so there is no shortcut for it magically happening.

We do have to choose to forgive and let God's will and truth be done.

I believe everyone will come to that understanding
and that is why there will be universal salvation.

God's will and love being perfect will compel people naturally by conscience.
So even though we have free choice and this will not be forced on us,
we will naturally choose it because it will end suffering and bring peace.

and our consciences are designed to seek satisfaction and peace
and to avoid that which causes fear, distress, pain and suffering.

by the consciences God gave us to seek what is true, consistent and stable
we will eventually come to understand and choose the higher path of greatest good which is God's will.

No other path will lead to resolution, so we will continue to suffer until we choose the path that leads to spiritual peace.

Again, Max, this is not like how other people have taught it.
So I can understand why you say it is false, the way they teach it, I don't agree either.

The true way of Salvation will be consistent with what you know.
And it will be understood by all and that is why everyone will be included.
Not by diluting or distorting it. People will really understand
the path to God's Truth and Justice which Jesus represents and fulfills.

It will change everything when we mature and reach the point of
global agreement and understanding, both individually and collectively
as one society and one humanity. So it will fulfill Salvation as expressed in the Bible
without compromising any of the other things you understand that leads to either hell or heaven.

All these things will be understood.
So everyone will be saved from suffering and there will be lasting spiritual peace.

All the hell and gnashing of teeth, burning up in the lake of fire,
will serve to purge and destroy all that is evil. So only the good
that God created will remain. That is enough to bring Universal Salvation in Christ Jesus.

You are right that we should teach how to avoid the pitfalls of hell.
This is very real and needs to be part of the message
in order to explain the full process. Once people understand
then we don't have to go through all this again. So we will build
up to establish a lasting agreement, and hell will not be chosen as a path any more
once people see they can choose the path of heavenly peace.

Thank you MaxGrit

I am equally concerned that we do not allow the false
teachings, but truly explain how forgiveness in Christ Jesus
bring salvation and ends the path to hellish suffering in all forms.

Yours truly,
In Christ Jesus may all souls be
saved, in keeping with God's will that none be lost,
and all wrongs be resolved, transformed by the authority of Christ
for the Glory of God and fulfillment of the greatest plans for humanity
which God's will represents.

Amen

I'm just trying to teach you more about the Word. It's not necessary for you to know which one is correct at this point. I would have to warn you that Universal Salvation is dangerous because it leads people away from faith in Jesus Christ and salvation. The rationale behind that is: Why have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior right now? Everyone eventually get saved, thus there's no immediate need to come to faith in Jesus Christ. Also, if everyone is saved eventually, there's no rush in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation.

There are certain doctrines which are heretical and will definitely lead its believers to Hell. Any doctrine that denies God the Trinity will lead believers to Hell. This is an absolute. Any teachings that denies the Trinity God, thus rejecting Jesus Christ as God the Son, are false teachings from demons and will definitely lead to Hell.

Explanation: It is by the Grace of God alone that Salvation is given by faith in Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Word of God, God incarnated. This faith in Jesus Christ is given by baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[sealybobo]

Until then, I guess I'll just try to be the best person I can be and hope one day their religion changes their position to where that's enough. They say it is not enough. You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. I just can't because I don't believe a word of the story. I'm not mad about it. I just don't buy it.

In short, believing in Jesus to bring Salvation for humanity
means to have faith in JUSTICE to bring peace to society.

Unfortunately justice has two sides: we see both religious and political leaders
taking Justice and making retributive justice and antichrist out of it. So that is the
false religion and the abuse of church and state authority that causes hell on earth.

The side of Jesus or Justice that bring peace, healing grace and salvation from suffering
is RESTORATIVE JUSTICE

So as long as we receive and live by Restorative Justice
or Justice with Mercy which Christ Jesus represents,
then that is the commitment by conscience that saves us from the
path of retribution and endless hell.

All the good things in the Bible, Christianity and the Church we agree are positive
can be explained as consistent with Restorative Justice, peace and justice,
justice with mercy, charity for all.

All the BAD things in the Bible, Christianity and church history we see are negative
(abusive hypocritical false wrong contradictory corrupted etc.)
can be explained in terms of Retributive Justice abused for political gain and control.

So to really believe, embrace, and live by Jesus
means to fully embody the spirit and laws of Justice by conscience.

In this way, all people are made equal, as in Equal Justice
or Equal Protections of the laws where we all agree to embrace and
enforce laws consistently with love of Truth, Justice and Peace for Humanity.

There cannot be any selfish interest or false motive in it
or it is Conditional (which is relative and leaves people out or treat people unequally)
instead of Unconditional where it includes all people equally.

I believe in Universal Justice and Peace that includes all humanity.
That's how I understand Jesus means Universal Salvation for all.

Here is Max's reply to you:

There are certain doctrines which are heretical and will lead to Hell. Any doctrine that denies God the Trinity will lead to Hell. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Word of God. Any teachings that denies Jesus Christ is God are false teachings from demons and will lead to Hell.

And my reply to max is BULLSHIT. Do you agree with Max? Please explain why or why not and don't go on and on like you always do.

 

[MaxGrit]

That is the truth of the Word of God. Faith in the correct person, as Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Word Incarnate, is needed for salvation.

There are many false teachings teaching of false Jesus Christs. Be wary of any teachings that denies Jesus Christ is God.

That is the reason I am adamant that true Christians worship the true God, I Am, the Trinitarian God.

Muslims deny the Trinity God and deny Jesus Christ is God the Son. They were taught false teachings by a demon through Mohammed. They worship a false god, Allah of the many names. Muslims will say that Allah is God, YHWH, and so on. It doesn't matter what the name is, it matters the person to which the name refers. Thus, belief in Islam will definitely leads to Hell.

The vast majority of people on Earth are headed straight for eternity in Hell. Billions of people will end up there.

The Holy Spirit shall be my witness in this matter.

I pray that God's grace be with you.

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV]
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

1) Defining atheism
In the golden age of atheism (late 1800's) atheism was generally held to be "the doctrine or belief that there is no God". Today some atheists prefer to define atheism as merely "lack of belief in God". While I appreciate the intellectual retreat the new definition represents, this new definition is illogical. According to the 2nd definition those who know or think there is a God are atheists, which is absurd.

2) Burden of proof
Atheists often say theists must shoulder the burden of proof since theists claim there is a God. However, atheists are also making a claim: theism is an ill-considered position. So atheists should also bear the burden of proof.

3) Radical skepticism
Some atheists are radical skeptics, but radical skepticism is self-defeating. As Wittgenstein said: “If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.”

4) Hard materialism
Can atheists prove only the material world exists?

5) Atheism and tolerance
According to one estimate over 25 million Christians died from secular antireligious violence in the 20th century.
Psychology Religion and Spirituality - James M. Nelson - Google Books

6) Atheism and happiness
BBC NEWS Health Religion linked to happy life

7) Atheists' recurring intellectual cowardice and laziness
Atheists seem eager to ridicule the least educated while avoiding the most educated Christians.
Atheists The Origin of the Species by Nick Spencer reviewed.

I'm not really interested in what atheists in the 1800s said they believed they are not the atheists you face today, so stop trying to look for a weaker opponent and face up to the one standing in front of you.

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the positive claim. You claim that God exists we say "Prove it." and because you can't you use arguments like this to shift the focus off yourselves to conceal the facts that your "evidence" is suspect at best.

I have no idea where this idea that atheists are radically skeptical to the point of not being able to function, we have a standard of evidence and are highly skeptical of things that don't meet that standard and even still reasonably skeptical of things that do and occasionally go back and double check just to make sure that they still meet our standards. That's being thorough not radically skeptical.

And can you prove that more than the material world exists?

As for point number 5 I call bullshit. You're going to need to provide better evidence for that claim.

And atheists are very happy people in general despite our bad rep for being angry. Most atheists feel like a weight has been lifted. Religion made us miserable (religion like most everything is not for some people. We don't think less of people who join the military and decide it's not for them after a few years) and once we got away from it we are much happier and have learned to accept ourselves for who and what we are.

And don't even get me started on the intellectual cowardice and laziness of theists. I have encountered so many Christians that when pressed for an explanation as to why they believe can't give a good answer or in some cases any answer. They clearly believe what they were raised to and never bothered to look for themselves. Many Christians don't even know what's really in the Bible. If they did then there would be no women preachers or Sunday school teachers and yet.... And no we don't avoid the educated among you. That's either an obvious lie or a direct insult to your comrades that have debated with the likes of Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and others on my side of the issue. For shame.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It doesn't matter what we deserve, God loves us unconditionally, even when we stray away from him.

He sure has a funny way of showing it then

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It doesn't matter what we deserve, God loves us unconditionally, even when we stray away from him.

Which is poignant, given that you just said this in your prior post:

But atheists study Scripture, they memorize Biblical passages, they engage people in furious debate, all to prove that they don't believe in God, and no one else should either.

Who does God prefer? The indifferent semi-believer or the furious, but dedicated, opponent?

By saying that, you are essentially saying that we all—athiests included—deserve God's love, yes? That God owes us, right?

What does the Apostle Paul say in Ephesians 2:8 about that?

For by Grace are ye saved through Faith; and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith--and this is not from yourselves it is the gift of God--

It's very easy to become the best person who ever went to hell, yes?

So I could literally be the kindest, most generous person anyone has ever known. Lived my entire life trying to help others and was humble and God will still send me to Hell if I don't believe in him?