Zone1 Mormons are fine, but I have to call BS on the golden plates story.

[surada]

Consider the wonders of science. The internet and the personal computers we are using to have this conversation do not exist because of faith, but because of evidence found by repeatable experiments.

What you call faith, Cougebar, is nothing more than wishful thinking in something you want to believe. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to agree with you.

You believe, in lieu of any evidence at all, and despite an abundance of contrary evidence, that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are true. Muslim terrorists believe, for equally illusory reasons, that by killing people for Allah they will go to Paradise and enjoy the favors of seventy two virgins.

That is what faith leads to, Cougebar. Mormonism is comparatively harmless when matched with Islamic fanaticism. Nevertheless, there is no reason to believe that the convictions of Mormon missionaries or Islamic terrorists are true.

I wanted to become a Mormon, but I did not want to believe that Mormonism is true; I wanted to know that it is true. What I learned about the Book of Abraham through my personal evaluation of the relevant evidence, made that knowledge impossible. Only later did I learn that the experts agreed with me.

Your knowledge of Islam is poor.

 

[Hector12]

Your knowledge of Islam is poor.

I have read the Koran in three English translations. I do not pretend to know everything about Islam. What should I know that presumably you know?

I am ambivalent about Islam. I recommend ambivalence for Muslims. It prevents fanaticism.

 

[surada]

I

I have read the Koran in three English translations. I do not pretend to know everything about Islam. What should I know that presumably you know?

I am ambivalent about Islam. I recommend ambivalence for Muslims. It prevents fanaticism.

I lived in the Middle East for 20 years. I've never met a fanatic.

 

[TNHarley]

Nothing against Mormons, but their religion is based on quicksand.

As opposed to other abrahamic religions?

 

[Hector12]

As opposed to other abrahamic religions?

The other Abrahamic religions cannot be disproved. We cannot disprove that Jesus rose from the dead, or that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed when he went into trances.

We can disprove the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, as I have done in this thread. Mormonism is unique among the religions because it makes assertions that can be rationally evaluated using fact based arguments.

 

[TNHarley]

The other Abrahamic religions cannot be disproved. We cannot disprove that Jesus rose from the dead, or that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed when he went into trances.

We can disprove the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, as I have done in this thread.

How about how the seven days of creation isnt possible? Or the sun revolves around the Earth?
How about in the Quran where it says where semen comes from? Or milk? Or the shape of the Earth?
Or how about how most of the bible is just a rip off from sumerian mythology?

 

[Flash]

I lived in a predominate LDS community for seven years.

My impressions:

1. Very nice, mostly Conservative family orientated people.

2. Very clannish. Either you are in or you ain't.

3. In my humble Christian mindset it is a cult and based upon some really outlandish ideas.

4. They are not Christians. They do not accept the Grace of God like Christians do. They are mostly a deeds based religion and that is not real Christianity.

In the seven years I was there working as an Engineering Director at a large nuclear facility I had to deal with several problems because of LDS managers and supervisors showing favoritism to their fellow LDS employees.

When we moved there my youngest son was ten years old. Lots of kids his age in the neighborhood where we lived. However, we were the only non LDS family. At first the kids were very accepting of my son. However, after finding out we were not LDS and would not accept their invitations to join the kids stopped interacting with my son. They were not not mean or anything but they just stopped including him in their typical kids interaction.

 

[LibertyKid]

I've read a fair amount on the various major religions and I have to say, the story of Angel Moroni and the Golden Plates is the most suspect of all the stories I've read. Is there a Mormon out there who can better explain or defend why he or she believes these plates exist and were given to the Prophet Joseph to transcribe the Book of Mormon? This is not a knock on Mormons I have friends who are Mormons and they are very nice people and do lots of good things in the community and have good families. It's the Golden Plates story that just sounds like pure fantasy to me.

Joseph Smith was the biggest spiritual charlatan, ever IMO. He knew how to manipulate the masses using religious and end times sensationalism, which, is how the majority of cults, especially modern day cults have formed.
Humans desire more from this physical dimension. And those that are easily manipulated can fall for the charismatic personalities that that carry with the egregious claims. David Koresh, perfect example.

The ONLY thing that I will give Smith credit for is the origination story of the book of Mormon. I believe Smith knew that the BOM needed supernatural origins as no one would take his works seriously and equate them to Scripture. In some regards, if the "Bible" had a supernatural origin, instead of being canonized by the humanistic RCC, maybe some would respect the authority of Bible more. For example. Wouldn't it have been great if after Jesus "ascended", a book was left where he stood, or something along that supernatural narrative?

 

[surada]

Joseph Smith was the biggest spiritual charlatan, ever IMO. He knew how to manipulate the masses using religious and end times sensationalism, which, is how the majority of cults, especially modern day cults have formed.
Humans desire more from this physical dimension. And those that are easily manipulated can fall for the charismatic personalities that that carry with the egregious claims. David Koresh, perfect example.

The ONLY thing that I will give Smith credit for is the origination story of the book of Mormon. I believe Smith knew that the BOM needed supernatural origins as no one would take his works seriously and equate them to Scripture. In some regards, if the "Bible" had a supernatural origin, instead of being canonized by the humanistic RCC, maybe some would respect the authority of Bible more. For example. Wouldn't it have been great if after Jesus "ascended", a book was left where he stood, or something along that supernatural narrative?

It's very true that most cults focus on end times scenarios.

 

[Hector12]

How about how the seven days of creation isnt possible? Or the sun revolves around the Earth?
How about in the Quran where it says where semen comes from? Or milk? Or the shape of the Earth?
Or how about how most of the bible is just a rip off from sumerian mythology?

Few Christians believe in the literal truth of the first eleven chapters of Genesis.

 

[TNHarley]

Few Christians believe in the literal truth of the first eleven chapters of Genesis.

Irrelevant.

 

[LibertyKid]

How about how the seven days of creation isnt possible? Or the sun revolves around the Earth?
How about in the Quran where it says where semen comes from? Or milk? Or the shape of the Earth?
Or how about how most of the bible is just a rip off from sumerian mythology?

The assumption many make is literal interpretation. Many scholars do believe that most of those accounts, especially creation are metaphorical and allegorical. And you're right, those similarities between Judaism & Christianity stories are valid arguments. It's at least plausible, Egyptian influences made its way into the OT because they were writing by a man raised as an Egyptian.

Neil Degrasse Tyson said it best when questioned, "The bible teaches how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go".

 

[LibertyKid]

Irrelevant.

To some degree yes. Some Christians practice absolute inerrancy and literal hermeneutics. For them, application of scripture is based on current contextual narratives. They absolutely forget that scripture, OT and NT alike where never written to "us". Therefore they never apply proper interpretational application that would consider audience, timeframes, historical references, anthropological allegory and metaphor. A perfect use case: Creation Accounts.

What is irrelevant is anyone's idea and belief system of the creation account. I don't know what the Koran says, but what I know is that salvation for Christians is not dependent on non-essential beliefs like creation, or the account of Noah, and many other stories contained in the OT. Salvation is clearly spelled out by Christ and last I read, what you believe in all the other non-essential stuff is irrelevant.

 

[Cougarbear]

St. Thomas saw the Risen Lord, and his wounds from the crucifixion. You have nothing to show me. The problem with the six things you list is that they lead different people to completely different conclusions, with no way to determine who is right.

You are really falling apart now. What did Jesus himself say about those who use faith and the Holy Ghost and believe? Greater is their reward. And, it was James, an Apostle, who explained how to have a greater reward. Moroni was also a prophet/apostle. And Joseph Smith was a prophet as well. How many more “Saints” need to explain the process to you? You are attacking the Lord’s messengers and mouthpieces for him. No one had different conclusions. Some clarified more than others. All are right. And who knows, maybe you will have a vision and see as Thomas saw. Few and far between will. Why take the chance?

 

[Hector12]

You are really falling apart now. What did Jesus himself say about those who use faith and the Holy Ghost and believe? Greater is their reward. And, it was James, an Apostle, who explained how to have a greater reward. Moroni was also a prophet/apostle. And Joseph Smith was a prophet as well. How many more “Saints” need to explain the process to you? You are attacking the Lord’s messengers and mouthpieces for him. No one had different conclusions. Some clarified more than others. All are right. And who knows, maybe you will have a vision and see as Thomas saw. Few and far between will. Why take the chance?

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

A Sample of Joseph Smith's
False Prophecies​

Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84) No longer teach the gathering and temple never built. Changing World of Mormonism p.420 *Online* Mormon Claims Answered p.58 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.192 Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19) Mormons driven out. Mormon Claims Answered p.60 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.194 Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103) Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise. Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.193-194 Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87) England and other nations did not join in. Changing World of Mormonism p.424 *Online* Mormon Claims Answered p.59 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.190-191 & p.195H Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111) No riches found, debts not paid. Mormon Claims Answered p.61 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.49 Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15) Christ did not return. Changing World of Mormonism p.418 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.187 US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.) It doesn't and is not destroyed. Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.192

 

[Cougarbear]

The assumption many make is literal interpretation. Many scholars do believe that most of those accounts, especially creation are metaphorical and allegorical. And you're right, those similarities between Judaism & Christianity stories are valid arguments. It's at least plausible, Egyptian influences made its way into the OT because they were writing by a man raised as an Egyptian.

Neil Degrasse Tyson said it best when questioned, "The bible teaches how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go".

Spot on! Why people demand God do the things they want thinking they know more than God.

 

[Hector12]

Once I attended a talk by a high ranking Mormon official who was also a lawyer. During the question and answer session I asked, "What would you say to someone who says that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham was really the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

He told me he would explain after the talk if I would come to his table. When I came to his table, he gave me his business card, and told me to come to his office. He was obviously running from me. Because I did not want to embarrass him further, I did him the favor of not coming to his office.

His talk was recorded, and broadcast later that week on National Public Radio. When I listened to his response to my question I could tell that he was disturbed by it. I probably brought up something that he had thought about and was trying not to think about.

This happened before I discovered that Egyptian scholars agreed with me.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Once I attended a talk by a high ranking Mormon official who was also a lawyer. During the question and answer session I asked, "What would you say to someone who says that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham was really the Egyptian Book of the Dead?

He told me he would explain after the talk if I would come to his table. When I came to his table, he gave me his business card, and told me to come to his office. He was obviously running from me. Because I did not want to embarrass him further, I did him the favor of not coming to his office.

His talk was recorded, and broadcast later that week on National Public Radio. When I listened to his response to my question I could tell that he was disturbed by it. I probably brought up something that he had thought about and was trying not to think about.

This happened before I discovered that Egyptian scholars agreed with me.

keep ignoring the fact the book of the dead was not discovered when smith started his translation and wasnt translated when he finished it god you are stupid

 

[Cougarbear]

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

A Sample of Joseph Smith's
False Prophecies​

​

Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84) No longer teach the gathering and temple never built. Changing World of Mormonism p.420 *Online* Mormon Claims Answered p.58 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.192 Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19) Mormons driven out. Mormon Claims Answered p.60 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.194 Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103) Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise. Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.193-194 Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87) England and other nations did not join in. Changing World of Mormonism p.424 *Online* Mormon Claims Answered p.59 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.190-191 & p.195H Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111) No riches found, debts not paid. Mormon Claims Answered p.61 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.49 Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15) Christ did not return. Changing World of Mormonism p.418 *Online* Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.187 US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.) It doesn't and is not destroyed. Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.192

You are totally losing it now. It's fun to show the errors of your ways and thinking and watch you implode into stuff like this.
1. Yes, Saints did go and build a Temple. But, not the Temple in D&C 84. It's not time yet. Close. That area in Jackson County, Missouri will be where New Jerusalem will be. And, there will be a Temple, I'm sure. That's in the future still. Zion is where the pure in heart dwell. Not a specific location. Oh, we get pushed around. Especially back in those days. Talk about lawlessness, something we seem to be falling back into in the big Democrat run cities. Yes, there will be an army of Saints. We call them missionaries. And, there will be more in that area as the Lord comes back to Adam Ondi Ahman and the Millennium gets closer. The Civil War prophecy did happen where it said it was going to happen, South Carolina. Did you miss your history class on that one? No,
As far as when the Lord will come again, read carefully verse 15. Did Joseph live to be 85? No. So, it didn't happen. Instead, the Saints had to be chastened and grow. Also, the Gospel had not been taken to the 4 corners of the earth yet. So, once again, you strike out.
See, it's in the interpretations of double minded people like where you got this trash from. And, another double minded man is licking it up, you.
The U.S. Government is being destroyed. Pay attention. It's being destroyed from within without a shot fired.

 

[onefour1]

I think a good overview of the Book of Abraham from the LDS perspective can be found at this link:

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

and yes Hector12, I have read it.