Mother On the Lam For Right to Let Son Die

[Zoom-boing]

Because it isn't a decision they are making for themselves. It could be considered neglect. Child endangerment.

He is 13 and needs to have someone on his side while he weighs the options. Although she could have him convinced that chemo will not help.

Then is seems to me that if the parents choose an alternative treatment for their son's cancer and the government disagrees that it is the best course of treatment, then the government gets to come in and decide what is the best course of treatment. Government decides treatment, not parents. Nope, can't say I agree with that.

I think we are going a little far to say that the government is deciding treatment. The doctors are recommending treatment and are presenting this treatment plan to the judge.

If the goal is the welfare of the child, the vast majority of sane people would chose to save the child's life with proven and successful treatments. It is as simple as that.

Well, I've never had cancer but if I did I would certainly hope that I would be able to decide for me - or my kids - what I thought was the best course of treatment. Doctors can and should recommend but they cannot force treatment, nor can the government. If they can force treatment in this scenario what's to stop them from forcing some other treatment on someone else, just because they think it's best?

Oh, and don't knock alternative and holistic and dismiss it as quackery or something. From my personal experience, conventional medicine and doctors do not always have the right answers nor are they always correct.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The government should not dictate what, if any, medical treatment a person should go through. This is supposed to be a free society, where a person has the freedom to choose what's best themselves. I've known too many people that have undergone chemotherapy and frankly the cure is often worse than the disease. Everyone I know that had undergone extensive treatment has passed away after years of what I feel is medical abuse.

In most cases I would agree. I watched my wife go through chemo and radiation for ten months. It was not easy. However, there are two things to consider. First of all, is this thirteen year old boy capable of making a rational decision concerning his treatment, and does he understand that without it, he has a greater than 95% chance of dying. In other words, his life is almost over. On the other hand, if he goes through with the chemo, he has a 90% chance of survival, and it is likely he will live a long and productive life. Hodgkins and non-Hodgkins Lymphoma are two of the few cancers where treatment has been proven to be highly effective and normally leads to long term survivability.

The point is that this boys doctors stated they would be open to forgoing the chemo if they believed the boy was terminal. They do not believe that however, as they feel he should survive this with good results. So what this mother is doing is writing the death sentence of her own child. Does that make her unfit as a parent? As much as I believe in parent's rights, I do think she is wacko and unfit, at least when it comes to making medical decisions.

I'm fairly sure both the parents and the boy knows what the odds are and I believe it's up to them to decide whatever course of action they should take and not the govt's.

It's called freedom and if you can't be free to choose what kind of treatment you want or how to raise your own children, then freedom is reduced to a word with no meaning?

 

[Valerie]

Then is seems to me that if the parents choose an alternative treatment for their son's cancer and the government disagrees that it is the best course of treatment, then the government gets to come in and decide what is the best course of treatment. Government decides treatment, not parents. Nope, can't say I agree with that.

I think we are going a little far to say that the government is deciding treatment. The doctors are recommending treatment and are presenting this treatment plan to the judge.

If the goal is the welfare of the child, the vast majority of sane people would chose to save the child's life with proven and successful treatments. It is as simple as that.

Well, I've never had cancer but if I did I would certainly hope that I would be able to decide for me - or my kids - what I thought was the best course of treatment. Doctors can and should recommend but they cannot force treatment, nor can the government. If they can force treatment in this scenario what's to stop them from forcing some other treatment on someone else, just because they think it's best?

Oh, and don't knock alternative and holistic and dismiss it as quackery or something. From my personal experience, conventional medicine and doctors do not always have the right answers nor are they always correct.

Exactly xotoxi. Zoom-boing, the difference is you're an adult.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I think we are going a little far to say that the government is deciding treatment. The doctors are recommending treatment and are presenting this treatment plan to the judge.

If the goal is the welfare of the child, the vast majority of sane people would chose to save the child's life with proven and successful treatments. It is as simple as that.

Well, I've never had cancer but if I did I would certainly hope that I would be able to decide for me - or my kids - what I thought was the best course of treatment. Doctors can and should recommend but they cannot force treatment, nor can the government. If they can force treatment in this scenario what's to stop them from forcing some other treatment on someone else, just because they think it's best?

Oh, and don't knock alternative and holistic and dismiss it as quackery or something. From my personal experience, conventional medicine and doctors do not always have the right answers nor are they always correct.

Exactly xotoxi. Zoom-boing, the difference is you're an adult.

Well, I've never had cancer but if I did I would certainly hope that I would be able to decide for me - or my kids - what I thought was the best course of treatment.

 

[Ravi]

Apparently the kid is a "medicine man" and his parents aren't actually native Americans...sound like a silly cult.

Koolaid drinkers, just like those idiots riding the comet to heaven.

Jesus has quite the sense of humor.

 

[AllieBaba]

You think everyone who isn't a progressive liberal belongs to a "cult", Ravi.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Apparently the kid is a "medicine man" and his parents aren't actually native Americans...sound like a silly cult.

Koolaid drinkers, just like those idiots riding the comet to heaven.

Jesus has quite the sense of humor.

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

What do you stand for Ravi?

And what do you really know about Jesus?

 

[Ravi]

Jeesh...the cult has been around since 1990. And you laugh at Scientologists.

"While he is 13 years of age, Daniel is unable to read. He does not know what the term 'elder' means, although he claims to be one. He knows he is a medicine man under Nemenhah teachings, but is unable to identify how he became a medicine man or what teachings he has had to master to become one. He believes in the principle of 'do no harm' and attributes his belief to Nemenhah teachings."

God in Government: Religious Faith and a Sick Boy - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

Maybe "learning disability" does mean mental retardation in this kid's case.

Pretty sad.

 

[Ravi]

Apparently the kid is a "medicine man" and his parents aren't actually native Americans...sound like a silly cult.

Koolaid drinkers, just like those idiots riding the comet to heaven.

Jesus has quite the sense of humor.

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

What do you stand for Ravi?

And what do you really know about Jesus?

I know he cries when people don't use the gifts he gives them.

 

[Care4all]

i just read the whole article again and

well, looks like he's dying, since he dropped the chemo treatments last january after one treatment...

here is how the mom is treating him...

Colleen Hauser testified at the earlier hearing that her son "is not in any medical danger." She said she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives...



the dad agrees to treatment now....

his doctor said this....


Joyce said he examined Daniel on Monday, and an X-ray showed that his tumor had grown to the size it was when he was first diagnosed.

"He had basically gotten back all the trouble he had in January," the doctor said.
Besides examining Daniel's chest X-ray, Dr. Joyce also said he asked Daniel how he was feeling. The doctor said the boy told him he had pain on the right side of his chest, which Daniel rated a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Joyce said the pain was around the port that was inserted into Daniel's chest to administer chemotherapy. He attributed the pain to the growing tumor, which is pushing the port out of place. Joyce said Daniel also had a nodule above his right clavicle that was not visible 11 days earlier.

Daniel also told the doctor he had a cough, though he wasn't having any trouble breathing, Joyce said.


and here is what the judge said:

In his ruling last week, Rodenberg wrote that he would not order chemotherapy if Daniel's prognosis was poor. But if the outlook was good, it appeared chemotherapy and possibly radiation was in the boy's best interest, he wrote.

 

[AllieBaba]

Hey, here's some interesting stats:

"Estimated mortality rate for Hodgkin's Disease from incidence and deaths statistics:
Deaths: 1,402 (USA annual deaths calculated from this data: 1,403 deaths reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001))
Incidence: 7,000 (USA annual incidence calculated from this data: 7,000 annual cases in USA (SEER 2002 estimate); less than 1 percent of all cases of cancer
20.0% (ratio of deaths to incidence).
Prognosis of Hodgkin's Disease - WrongDiagnosis.com

Gosh, it isn't quite as cut and dried as presented, I guess.

Incidence 7000, deaths 1402. That's not a 90 percent survival rate.

 

[DiveCon]

Jeesh...the cult has been around since 1990. And you laugh at Scientologists.

"While he is 13 years of age, Daniel is unable to read. He does not know what the term 'elder' means, although he claims to be one. He knows he is a medicine man under Nemenhah teachings, but is unable to identify how he became a medicine man or what teachings he has had to master to become one. He believes in the principle of 'do no harm' and attributes his belief to Nemenhah teachings."

God in Government: Religious Faith and a Sick Boy - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

Maybe "learning disability" does mean mental retardation in this kid's case.

Pretty sad.

none of that matters
the parents are the ones with the options, not the government

 

[Care4all]

Jeesh...the cult has been around since 1990. And you laugh at Scientologists.

"While he is 13 years of age, Daniel is unable to read. He does not know what the term 'elder' means, although he claims to be one. He knows he is a medicine man under Nemenhah teachings, but is unable to identify how he became a medicine man or what teachings he has had to master to become one. He believes in the principle of 'do no harm' and attributes his belief to Nemenhah teachings."

God in Government: Religious Faith and a Sick Boy - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

Maybe "learning disability" does mean mental retardation in this kid's case.

Pretty sad.

huh? the original article said the parents were Roman Catholics?

 

[Valerie]

i just read the whole article again and

well, looks like he's dying, since he dropped the chemo treatments last january after one treatment...

here is how the mom is treating him...

Colleen Hauser testified at the earlier hearing that her son "is not in any medical danger." She said she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives...



the dad agrees to treatment now....

his doctor said this....

Besides examining Daniel's chest X-ray, Dr. Joyce also said he asked Daniel how he was feeling. The doctor said the boy told him he had pain on the right side of his chest, which Daniel rated a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Joyce said the pain was around the port that was inserted into Daniel's chest to administer chemotherapy. He attributed the pain to the growing tumor, which is pushing the port out of place. Joyce said Daniel also had a nodule above his right clavicle that was not visible 11 days earlier.

Daniel also told the doctor he had a cough, though he wasn't having any trouble breathing, Joyce said.


and here is what the judge said:

In his ruling last week, Rodenberg wrote that he would not order chemotherapy if Daniel's prognosis was poor. But if the outlook was good, it appeared chemotherapy and possibly radiation was in the boy's best interest, he wrote.

Care, I agree with you, as usual. I heard that about the father as well, that he now wants the boy treated, but I haven't had time yet to look into it further. Also, If I recall correctly from the original story, there was also an issue of the family maybe having a financial interest in the holistic services industry?

 

[AllieBaba]

First Ravi said let him decide because if he can't read at 13 the parents are retarded. Then she said if he didn't choose treatment HE was retarded.

Then she denied it.

Now she's back to saying he's retarded.

????

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Apparently the kid is a "medicine man" and his parents aren't actually native Americans...sound like a silly cult.

Koolaid drinkers, just like those idiots riding the comet to heaven.

Jesus has quite the sense of humor.

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

What do you stand for Ravi?

And what do you really know about Jesus?

I know he cries when people don't use the gifts he gives them.

I should have known I wouldn't get a straight forward answer.

The questions I posed were simple questions. But obviously not simple enough for your limited intelligence.

After reading your response it's clear that you do not stand for anything and your knowledge of Jesus and his teachings are slim to none. I think the latter is more exact.

 

[AllieBaba]

i just read the whole article again and

well, looks like he's dying, since he dropped the chemo treatments last january after one treatment...

here is how the mom is treating him...

Colleen Hauser testified at the earlier hearing that her son "is not in any medical danger." She said she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives...



the dad agrees to treatment now....

his doctor said this....

Besides examining Daniel's chest X-ray, Dr. Joyce also said he asked Daniel how he was feeling. The doctor said the boy told him he had pain on the right side of his chest, which Daniel rated a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Joyce said the pain was around the port that was inserted into Daniel's chest to administer chemotherapy. He attributed the pain to the growing tumor, which is pushing the port out of place. Joyce said Daniel also had a nodule above his right clavicle that was not visible 11 days earlier.

Daniel also told the doctor he had a cough, though he wasn't having any trouble breathing, Joyce said.


and here is what the judge said:

In his ruling last week, Rodenberg wrote that he would not order chemotherapy if Daniel's prognosis was poor. But if the outlook was good, it appeared chemotherapy and possibly radiation was in the boy's best interest, he wrote.

Care, I agree with you, as usual. I heard that about the father as well, that he now wants the boy treated, but I haven't had time yet to look into it further. Also, If I recall correctly from the original story, there was also an issue of the family maybe having a financial interest in the holistic services industry?

Which means what...that they're going to make money off themselves???

 

[Shogun]

He also wrote that Daniel, who cannot read, did not understand the risks and benefits of chemotherapy and didn't believe he was ill.

Daniel testified that he believed the chemo would kill him and told the judge in private testimony unsealed later that if anyone tried to force him to take it, "I'd fight it. I'd punch them and I'd kick them."

wtf?


Now that this thread has had time to fester.. I'm kind of split on this one. First off, I have no respect for dogma junkie cults that let kids die in an act of faith. It's reprehensible. And, I think Jillian is correct when she states that if this were a kid getting "treatment" from voodoo chicken guts and poultices more of you would be taking a whole different position. I do believe that this is overt neglect of the health of the kid. But I have to observe the religious protection in the first amendment. I disagree that it's a blank check for religious nuttery but, it seems, if the KID is making his personal decision then perhaps I would allow him the same dignity as those who have also chosen a right to die.

I have to wonder if those of you gnashing your teeth at Jillian would be quick to do so if this kid were near death from pentecostal snakebite rituals. Also, the kid can't read. THIS says a lot about the ignorance involved. Illiteracy is not a crime but it certainly suggests that the kid is not getting the FULL medical picture. If he were an adult this would be a whole other issue but, because he is at an influential age...

like I said.. i'm kind of split on this one.

 

[Valerie]

i just read the whole article again and

well, looks like he's dying, since he dropped the chemo treatments last january after one treatment...

here is how the mom is treating him...

Colleen Hauser testified at the earlier hearing that her son "is not in any medical danger." She said she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives...



the dad agrees to treatment now....

his doctor said this....

Besides examining Daniel's chest X-ray, Dr. Joyce also said he asked Daniel how he was feeling. The doctor said the boy told him he had pain on the right side of his chest, which Daniel rated a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Joyce said the pain was around the port that was inserted into Daniel's chest to administer chemotherapy. He attributed the pain to the growing tumor, which is pushing the port out of place. Joyce said Daniel also had a nodule above his right clavicle that was not visible 11 days earlier.

Daniel also told the doctor he had a cough, though he wasn't having any trouble breathing, Joyce said.


and here is what the judge said:

In his ruling last week, Rodenberg wrote that he would not order chemotherapy if Daniel's prognosis was poor. But if the outlook was good, it appeared chemotherapy and possibly radiation was in the boy's best interest, he wrote.

Care, I agree with you, as usual. I heard that about the father as well, that he now wants the boy treated, but I haven't had time yet to look into it further. Also, If I recall correctly from the original story, there was also an issue of the family maybe having a financial interest in the holistic services industry?

Which means what...that they're going to make money off themselves???

I don't know, it just occurred to me that I remember reading that. As if they were willing to risk their sons condition for a reason other than what they truly believed was in his best interest for a chance they might get lucky and prove their treatment more valuable?

 

[Care4all]

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

What do you stand for Ravi?

And what do you really know about Jesus?

I know he cries when people don't use the gifts he gives them.

I should have known I wouldn't get a straight forward answer.

The questions I posed were simple questions. But obviously not simple enough for your limited intelligence.

After reading your response it's clear that you do not stand for anything and your knowledge of Jesus and his teachings are slim to none. I think the latter is more exact.

Jesus probably would have told the kid/parents to use the best medicines of the day...as he did with Lazerus...