Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

[Saigon]

Israel is the correct historical name of the land.

And who said otherwise?

Israel is Israel - I don't see anyone saying it should be re-named or shouldn't exist.

 

[Maryland]

Israel is the correct historical name of the land.

And who said otherwise?

Israel is Israel - I don't see anyone saying it should be re-named or shouldn't exist.

Israel is Israel and "palestine" was a European name for Israel.

 

[Roudy]

There is a reference recording the Arab conquest of Syria, that mentions Muhammed. This much faded note is preserved on folio 1 of BL Add. 14,461, a codex containing the Gospel accord to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark. This note appears to have been penned soon after the battle of Gabitha (636 CE) at which the Arabs inflicted crushing defeat of the Byzantines. Wright was first to draw the attention to the fragment and suggested that "it seems to be a nearly contemporary notice",[34] a view which was also endorsed by Nöldeke.[35] The purpose of jotting this note in the book of Gospels appears to be commemorative as the author appears to have realized how momentous the events of his time were. The words "we saw" are positive evidence that the author was a contemporary. The author also talks about olive oil, cattle, ruined villages, suggesting that he belonged to peasant stock, i.e., parish priest or a monk who could read and write. It is worthwhile cautioning that the condition of the text is fragmentary and many of the readings unclear or disputable. The lacunae are supplied in square brackets:

... and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) [the sons of] Emesa [i.e., ̣Hiṃs)], and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Mụhammad and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth [...] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus?] [...] and we saw everywhe[re...] and o[l]ive oil which they brought and them. And on the t[wenty six]th of May went S[ac[ella]rius]... cattle [...] [...] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them [...] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus [...] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn [of the ye]ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha [...] the Romans and great many people were ki[lled of] [the R]omans, ome fifty thousand [...][36]

Historicity of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia?

He's also very good at interviewing cab drivers in Muslim countries, which is where he gets most of his info from....does that count?

 

[Saigon]

Israel is Israel and "palestine" was a European name for Israel.

Was it really?

So other people called the area Israel, did they? When?

You have to laugh, don't you?

 

[Maryland]

Israel is Israel and "palestine" was a European name for Israel.

Was it really?

So other people called the area Israel, did they? When?

You have to laugh, don't you?

PBS: Civilization and the Jews

The interaction of Jewish history and Western civilization successively assumed different forms. In the Biblical and Ancient periods, Israel was an integral part of the Near Eastern and classical world, which gave birth to Western civilization. It shared the traditions of ancient Mesopotamia and the rest of that world with regard to it’s own beginning; it benefited from the decline of Egypt and the other great Near Eastern empires to emerge as a nation in it’s own right; it asserted it’s claim to the divinely promised Land of Israel and struggled to a precarious independence there for a thousand years until forced to yield to the greater power of Greece and Rome.
PBS - Heritage

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

 

[Saigon]

Maryland -

No one disputes the age of the word 'Israel' or its importance to the Jewish people, I'm sure.

But what Zionist posters need to keep in mind is that, prior to the formation of Israel in 1948, the word 'Israel' had rarely appeared on maps under that name. For centuries western maps called the area 'Palestine''.

It amazes me how often here we see very poorly informed posters whining about how Palestine "was never a country" without remembering that by those standards Israel was never a country either.

It's this kind of laughable double standard and cherry-picking of arguments that has cast Zionism in such a negative light.

 

[Saigon]

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

Yes, and the bible also refers to a dozen other people, such as the Scythians or Cimmerians - few of whom ever got their own country. Your point?

The bible is not the starting point of modern geography.

 

[Maryland]

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

Yes, and the bible also refers to a dozen other people, such as the Scythians or Cimmerians - few of whom ever got their own country. Your point?

The bible is not the starting point of modern geography.

The Bible doesn't refer to palestine nor palestinians.

 

[Saigon]

Maps are made on computers.

Well, that has cleared that debate up.

I didn't even know there were computers when the bible was written.

 

[Saigon]

The Bible doesn't refer to palestine nor palestinians.

So what?

Again - is Turkey in the bible? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait?

Should we re-name the land Phoenicia, Canaan or Philistinia and hand that over to the non-Jewish inhabitants of the area?

 

[Maryland]

The Bible doesn't refer to palestine nor palestinians.

So what?

Again - is Turkey in the bible? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait?

They didn't exist until the 20th century, dummy. Palestine didn't exist until the 20th century.

 

[Saigon]

They didn't exist until the 20th century, dummy. Palestine didn't exist until the 20th century.

Nonsense. It existed for entire swathes of history. It simply was not a nation state.

You have already told us that the Romans used the term 'Palestine'. So did the British, you have insisted. We know Herodotus used the term as well. Most maps of the area drawn prior to the Ottoman area use the term 'Palestine' So clearly it DID exist.

Of course you can muddy the waters by saying that many of the people in the area were Philistines or Phoenicians or Egyptians or Syrians and all of those things hold some truth, but the fact remains that the name Palestine, referring to the land and the people born within it, dates back to antiquity.

 

[Unkotare]

"Muddy the waters" = prove some pretentious asshole wrong.

 

[Maryland]

They didn't exist until the 20th century, dummy. Palestine didn't exist until the 20th century.

Nonsense. It existed for entire swathes of history. It simply was not a nation state.

You have already told us that the Romans used the term 'Palestine'. So did the British, you have insisted. We know Herodotus used the term as well. Most maps of the area drawn prior to the Ottoman area use the term 'Palestine' So clearly it DID exist.

Of course you can muddy the waters by saying that many of the people in the area were Philistines or Phoenicians or Egyptians or Syrians and all of those things hold some truth, but the fact remains that the name Palestine, referring to the land and the people born within it, dates back to antiquity.

You're allowed to be dumb. The Romans used the name "palaestina" briefly. The British Anglicized it into palestine in the 20th century.

Both were Europeans. The correct historical name of the land created by the indigenous Jewish People is Israel.

 

[Saigon]

The Romans used the name "palaestina" briefly

Really? So it is not true that the name Syria Palaestina was used for almost 300 years?

Or that Paleastine Prima was used for another 250 years after that?

Because by my maths that would be a period of time close to ten times as long as the state of Israel has existed for, wouldn't it?


I have to say (again) that I am constantly stunned by the lack of general knowledge on this board.

 

[Maryland]

Middle East Scholar And Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East", "The Arabs In History"

The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new. This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilizations and of deep-rooted and often complex identities. But Palestine was not one of them. People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or sometimes locality. But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or the like, or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria.

The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian and the reconstitution of Jerusalem is the capital were, it seems to me, very important, and as it turns out, lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1918-1948]
Political Words & Ideas in Islam: Bernard Lewis : 9781558764736: Amazon.com: Books

American Library Association

"For more than four decades, Bernard Lewis has been one of the most respected scholars and prolific writers on the history and politics of the Middle East. In this compilation of more than 50 journal articles and essays, he displays the full range of his eloquence, knowledge, and insight regarding this pivotal and volatile region."
Oxford University Press: Search Results

 

[Saigon]

Maryland -

Bernard Lewis is right that the concept of Palestinian identity - as opposed to loyalty to a city, local leader or clan - is relatively recent. I don't hear anyone here suggesting otherwise.

Prior to the 1st Aliyah there was no apparent need for a national identity. Palestinian nationalism formed as a reference to Jewish immigration, but that still sees it acting and functioning as an identity by 1915.

As I have reminded posters on this board many times - neither Italy nor Germany existed as concepts prior to about 1850.

It isn't an age contest.

 

[Maryland]

Palestine is as real as Never Neverland. Israel is the correct historical name of the land.

Bernard Lewis...

The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel

It is by now commonplace that the civilizations of the Middle East are oldest known to human history. They go back thousands of years, much older than the civilizations of India and China, not to speak of other upstart places. It is also interesting, though now often forgotten, that the ancient civilizations of the Middle East were almost totally obliterated and forgotten by their own people as well as by others. Their monuments were defaced or destroyed, their languages forgotten, their scripts forgotten, their history forgotten and even their identities forgotten.

All that was known about them came from one single source, and that is Israel, the only component of the ancient Middle East to have retained their identity, their memory, their language and their books. For a very long time, up to comparatively modern times, with rare exceptions all that was known about the ancient Middle East--the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the rest--was what the Jewish tradiiton has preserved.
Political Words & Ideas in Islam: Bernard Lewis : 9781558764736: Amazon.com: Books

 

[ima]

Middle East Scholar And Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East", "The Arabs In History"

The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new. This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilizations and of deep-rooted and often complex identities. But Palestine was not one of them. People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or sometimes locality. But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or the like, or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria.

The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian and the reconstitution of Jerusalem is the capital were, it seems to me, very important, and as it turns out, lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1918-1948]
Political Words & Ideas in Islam: Bernard Lewis : 9781558764736: Amazon.com: Books

American Library Association

"For more than four decades, Bernard Lewis has been one of the most respected scholars and prolific writers on the history and politics of the Middle East. In this compilation of more than 50 journal articles and essays, he displays the full range of his eloquence, knowledge, and insight regarding this pivotal and volatile region."
Oxford University Press: Search Results

What do you expect a Jew to say?

 

[ima]

The Bible doesn't refer to palestine nor palestinians.

So what?

Again - is Turkey in the bible? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait?

They didn't exist until the 20th century, dummy. Palestine didn't exist until the 20th century.

The bible is a load of made up crap. Or can you prove that the world was made in 6 days? You can't? Awwwww, too bad, you lose.