Nathan Bedford Forrest statue causing controversy

[The Gadfly]

Typical southern knuckledragger comment "And it was SOP to murder Blacks in Confederate uniform at the gate."

Documented historical fact, Jake. Recorded in the OR, in addition to letters and memoirs of camp guards, prisoners, and Chicago civilians (who were allowed access to the camp, and witnessed many of the atrocities that were practiced there on a daily basis). Also noted in the History Channel documentary, "Eighty Acres of Hell" (and the History Channel is NOT exactly pro-Confederate, in case you didn't know).

Incidentally the Yankees at Andersonville were eating pretty much what their Confederate guards were; the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed, clothe and shelter them. The Union, on the other hand, had plenty, but DELIBERATELY AND SYSTEMATICALLY starved Confederate prisoners of war, routinely tortured them, and denied them medical care. (The Confederates would have gladly exchanged their Yankee prisoners at Andersonville, BUT LINCOLN"S GOVERNMENT PREFERRED TO ABANDON THEIR OWN TROOPS TO STARVATION, RATHER THAN EXCHANGE CONFEDERATE PRISONERS FOR THEM!) This, even after victory on the battlefield was only a matter of time! One could say the same for Sherman's march; not a "necessity of war", but an exercise in gratuitous cruelty and barbarism of the worst sort, carried out for nothing more nor less than vengeance! I see the spirit of it is still alive and well and you and your Yankee friends here, Scalawag! Murder, torture and atrocity-the Yankee way of war. Murder the enemy, murder your own; made no difference to the bloodthirsty dictator Lincoln. Oh well, I've NEVER accused Yankees of being civilized human beings!

 

[JakeStarkey]

There were SC troops with the Confederate troops, nimorod.

They were foreign, had no legal authority whatsover, and fired on Old Glory and federal troops on federal property in defiance of national authority.

The Confederate and SC leaders should have been executed when captured.

SC troops were foreign troops trying to conquer federal territory.

They were traitors and their leaders should have been hung immediately.

Apparently you believe sovereign nations are obligated to allow foreign troops to occupy their territory. Any argument based on that theory is obvious idiocy.

They weren't even SC troops. They were under direct orders from Davis and Secretary of War, Walker. Davis gave the order, not Governor Pickens. Also it was a Virginian, Edmund Ruffin, who fired the first shot, and that was before the state seceded.

It was also a Virginia legislator, Roger Pryor, who urged Davis to start a war. He said:

"Do not distrust Virginia. As sure as tomorrow's sun will rise upon us, just so sure will Virginia be a member of the Southern Confederacy. And I will tell you, gentlemen, what will put her in the Southern Confederacy in less than an hour by Shrewsbury clock—Strike a blow! The very moment that blood is shed, Old Virginia will make common cause with her sisters of the South."​

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Gadly pulls a typical lefty knuckledragger bullshit comment.

Give us the exact citations and locations of sources.

Give us the numbers of incidents.

Give us the results of those incidents.

You have made unsupported comments, so you have fail at this point.

Typical southern knuckledragger comment "And it was SOP to murder Blacks in Confederate uniform at the gate."

Documented historical fact, Jake. Recorded in the OR, in addition to letters and memoirs of camp guards, prisoners, and Chicago civilians (who were allowed access to the camp, and witnessed many of the atrocities that were practiced there on a daily basis). Also noted in the History Channel documentary, "Eighty Acres of Hell" (and the History Channel is NOT exactly pro-Confederate, in case you didn't know).

Incidentally the Yankees at Andersonville were eating pretty much what their Confederate guards were; the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed, clothe and shelter them. The Union, on the other hand, had plenty, but DELIBERATELY AND SYSTEMATICALLY starved Confederate prisoners of war, routinely tortured them, and denied them medical care. (The Confederates would have gladly exchanged their Yankee prisoners at Andersonville, BUT LINCOLN"S GOVERNMENT PREFERRED TO ABANDON THEIR OWN TROOPS TO STARVATION, RATHER THAN EXCHANGE CONFEDERATE PRISONERS FOR THEM!) This, even after victory on the battlefield was only a matter of time! One could say the same for Sherman's march; not a "necessity of war", but an exercise in gratuitous cruelty and barbarism of the worst sort, carried out for nothing more nor less than vengeance! I see the spirit of it is still alive and well and you and your Yankee friends here, Scalawag! Murder, torture and atrocity-the Yankee way of war. Murder the enemy, murder your own; made no difference to the bloodthirsty dictator Lincoln. Oh well, I've NEVER accused Yankees of being civilized human beings!

 

[JakeStarkey]

bripat must be a lefty because he is lying and knows he is lying.

The state seceded the land, deed property rights, and territoriality to the federal government in 1836.

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

They ceded the property rights, not the territorial rights. The laws and legal jurisdiction of SC still applied within the confines of Ft Sumter.

You bloodthirsty carpetbagger morons don't seem to understand the distinction between property and territory.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Typical southern knuckledragger comment "And it was SOP to murder Blacks in Confederate uniform at the gate."

Documented historical fact, Jake. Recorded in the OR, in addition to letters and memoirs of camp guards, prisoners, and Chicago civilians (who were allowed access to the camp, and witnessed many of the atrocities that were practiced there on a daily basis). Also noted in the History Channel documentary, "Eighty Acres of Hell" (and the History Channel is NOT exactly pro-Confederate, in case you didn't know).

Incidentally the Yankees at Andersonville were eating pretty much what their Confederate guards were; the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed, clothe and shelter them. The Union, on the other hand, had plenty, but DELIBERATELY AND SYSTEMATICALLY starved Confederate prisoners of war, routinely tortured them, and denied them medical care. (The Confederates would have gladly exchanged their Yankee prisoners at Andersonville, BUT LINCOLN"S GOVERNMENT PREFERRED TO ABANDON THEIR OWN TROOPS TO STARVATION, RATHER THAN EXCHANGE CONFEDERATE PRISONERS FOR THEM!) This, even after victory on the battlefield was only a matter of time! One could say the same for Sherman's march; not a "necessity of war", but an exercise in gratuitous cruelty and barbarism of the worst sort, carried out for nothing more nor less than vengeance! I see the spirit of it is still alive and well and you and your Yankee friends here, Scalawag! Murder, torture and atrocity-the Yankee way of war. Murder the enemy, murder your own; made no difference to the bloodthirsty dictator Lincoln. Oh well, I've NEVER accused Yankees of being civilized human beings!

The bolded is bullshit. Sherman had in fact order Stoneman, in April 1864, and his cavalry to liberate Andersonville. Stoneman wound up being captured, and was part of an exchange a few months later. It wasn't until July 1864 that Andersonville started seeing about 200 deaths of POWs a day. It wasn't until then that Captain Wirz offered a prisoner exchange. At that same time, Sherman had kicked Hood's ass, and the Confederates started moving POWs to other prisons.


Historical Background, Andersonville Civil War Prison, Southeast Archaeological Center (SEAC)

During the 15 months during which Andersonville was operated, almost 13,000 Union prisoners died there of malnutrition, exposure, and disease;

American Civil War July 1863

July 30th: Lincoln clashed with Jefferson Davis. The head of the Confederacy had announced that any captured African-Americans fighting for the Unionists would be “handed over to the state authorities”. Within the South, it was a capital offence for an African-American to bear arms so the fate of any African-American caught by the South was obvious. Lincoln retaliated by announcing that any African-American executed would be met by the execution of one Southern prisoner-of-war. He also stated that any captured African-American returned to slavery would result on one Southern POW being put to hard labour.

 

[The Gadfly]

I suggest you study up on the Fort Pillow massacre, where your idol executed captured black soldiers, and sent the white prisoners to Andersonville.

I already dealt with the question of what Forrest did and did not do at Ft. Pillow, citing the best evidence available from primary source material (as opposed to some later revisionist textbook). I can't help it if you couldn't be bothered with reading the truth, but I put it out there for you, along with directing anyone who cares to look to the appropriate pages in the Official Records. If you don't know how to use primary sources like the OR, you are simply an historical illiterate who does not know how to do your own historical research. Otherwise, you would know that what you stated above is nothing but Union propaganda from the time. The reports of Union personnel actually Present at Ft. Pillow on the day of the battle and the following day, as contained in the OR, are inconsistent, but the majority of them clearly show the accusations you made in this post to be unfounded. I think we can safely add intellectual sloth, along with anti-Southern bigotry and willful ignorance, to the long list of deficiencies you personally display on this board every day.

From a letter sent home, from a Confederate Sargent, Achilles Clark :

" "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."

Ward, Andrew (2005). River Run Red: The Fort Pillow Massacre in the American Civil War. Penguin Books. pp. 3. ISBN 978-1-4406-4929-5.

From a contemporaneous New York Times article:

The blacks and their officers were shot down, bayoneted and put to the sword in cold blood... . Out of four hundred negro soldiers only about twenty survive! At least three hundred of them were destroyed after the surrender! This is the statement of the rebel General Chalmers himself to our informant.

Richard Fuchs, An Unerring Fire: The Massacre At Fort Pillow (Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole, 2002) p84

Both rebels, and contemporaneous accounts.

The second quote you used is easily dealt with. Chalmers said no such thing; His report (from captured Confederate records) can be found in the OR. The "informant" was more likely a pro-union reporter (check the proximity of Cairo IL to Ft. Pillow) and was based not on anything Chalmers said, but on wild rumors (of which there were plenty.) Also note that there were Tennessee soldiers on BOTH sides, pro Union and pro-Confederate Tennesseans hated each other and often the hatred was very personal. There was no doubt considerable "score settling" among White troops involved. The Union casualty figure quoted is wildly inaccurate, and at complete variance with both union and Confederate reports in the OR. The USCT involved were leaderless, most of their officers having been killed in the battle, and the beat evidence is that the colors had not been struck, the Union flag still flew above Ft. Pillow, and the Confederate troops near the river could only see that, not the fort itself. To add to the confusion, some of the USCT, after they had left the fort and retreated to the river, dropped their weapons, only to pick them up and re-engage the Confederates. Under the circumstances, most of the Confederate troops believed there had been no surrender and continued to engage. In fact, it was not until a Confederate cut the flag down, and Forrest arrived at the river below the bluff, that the shooting stopped.

The report of Lt. Van Horn, the senior surviving Union officer to escape capture, reveals that both Union officers and their men had "never intended to either surrender or ask for quarter" (see the OR). Take all Union and Confederate accounts together, and the best evidence is that while there was a considerable amount of unnecessary killing at Ft. Pillow, it was NOT an organized "massacre". Most of the more sensational and lurid accounts of the "atrocities" do not square with any other Union or Confederate account, or with what Union officers found the day after. As for Clark's account, the battle below the bluff took place in wooded terrain, and all he could have observed was in a limited area. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Forrest ever "ordered" a massacre of the garrison, and plenty of evidence to suggest that he ordered his men to cease fire once he reached the area by the river

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Gadfly has to do more than cite the "OR". We need author, date, description of document, volume, and location of the document.

This would be similar to telling someone to go the country records in Los Angeles to determine when English became the official language of document recording in the LA County Clerk's records.

Sheesh.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Here is an example that The Gadly can follow.

Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

PRISONERS OF WAR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late in 1862, Confederate president Jefferson Davis attempted to strike a fatal blow to the prospects of Union recruitment of African Americans. He ordered government forces to turn over any captured black troops to state authorities. The white officers would be tried according to state law for inciting servile insurrection; the runaways would return to slavery or suffer the death penalty, like their white officers. No proviso covered the capture of free blacks in Union uniform. As reinforcement, in late April and early May, the Confederate Congress passed a joint resolution, also calling for the death of white officers for inciting servile insurrection and the reenslavement of black soldiers.

National Park Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

 

[Uncensored2008]

Here is an example that The Gadly can follow.

Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

PRISONERS OF WAR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late in 1862, Confederate president Jefferson Davis attempted to strike a fatal blow to the prospects of Union recruitment of African Americans. He ordered government forces to turn over any captured black troops to state authorities. The white officers would be tried according to state law for inciting servile insurrection; the runaways would return to slavery or suffer the death penalty, like their white officers. No proviso covered the capture of free blacks in Union uniform. As reinforcement, in late April and early May, the Confederate Congress passed a joint resolution, also calling for the death of white officers for inciting servile insurrection and the reenslavement of black soldiers.

National Park Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

So then, blacks were treated better than whites when captured by the Confederacy?

How about that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nope, black soldiers were sent back to slavery (or enslaved for the first time) if not executed. Their white officers were also subject to execution. White prisoners from union units were sent to terrible prison camps.

You act like a lefty, Uncensored, when you attempt (and always fail, in your case) to twist the evidence.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Silly berry, you are all squeezed out.

An inferior can cede to a superior if the superior agrees, which in this case the national government permitted it.

squeezeberry, yours was one of the lamest statements anyone has made on the board in the last six months. If you think not, go read. It will take you months, I suspect, to find something as lame as what you wrote below.

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

Sumter was not occupied territory, moron. South Carolina ceded that property to the United States in 1836.

if you are not allowed to secede, you are not allowed cede either.

 

[Dick Tuck]

There were SC troops with the Confederate troops, nimorod.

They were foreign, had no legal authority whatsover, and fired on Old Glory and federal troops on federal property in defiance of national authority.

The Confederate and SC leaders should have been executed when captured.

SC troops were foreign troops trying to conquer federal territory.

They were traitors and their leaders should have been hung immediately.

They weren't even SC troops. They were under direct orders from Davis and Secretary of War, Walker. Davis gave the order, not Governor Pickens. Also it was a Virginian, Edmund Ruffin, who fired the first shot, and that was before the state seceded.

It was also a Virginia legislator, Roger Pryor, who urged Davis to start a war. He said:

"Do not distrust Virginia. As sure as tomorrow's sun will rise upon us, just so sure will Virginia be a member of the Southern Confederacy. And I will tell you, gentlemen, what will put her in the Southern Confederacy in less than an hour by Shrewsbury clock—Strike a blow! The very moment that blood is shed, Old Virginia will make common cause with her sisters of the South."​

Beauregard's troops were under the direct command of Jeff Davis and CSA War Secretary Walker, not Governor Pickens. And BTW, dipshit. I was agreeing that the Fort Sumter property was not South Carolina, but US territory, since SC ceded all claim to the US in 1836. Please try to keep up.

 

[squeeze berry]

Nope, black soldiers were sent back to slavery (or enslaved for the first time) if not executed. Their white officers were also subject to execution. White prisoners from union units were sent to terrible prison camps.

You act like a lefty, Uncensored, when you attempt (and always fail, in your case) to twist the evidence.

Federal prison camps were no vaction resort

Hey, ever hear of the Black Hole of Calcutta?

 

[Dick Tuck]

Here is an example that The Gadly can follow.

Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

PRISONERS OF WAR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late in 1862, Confederate president Jefferson Davis attempted to strike a fatal blow to the prospects of Union recruitment of African Americans. He ordered government forces to turn over any captured black troops to state authorities. The white officers would be tried according to state law for inciting servile insurrection; the runaways would return to slavery or suffer the death penalty, like their white officers. No proviso covered the capture of free blacks in Union uniform. As reinforcement, in late April and early May, the Confederate Congress passed a joint resolution, also calling for the death of white officers for inciting servile insurrection and the reenslavement of black soldiers.

National Park Civil War Series: The Civil War's Black Soldiers

So then, blacks were treated better than whites when captured by the Confederacy?

How about that.

By handing them over to state authorities for execution? Are you fucking retarded?

 

[Dick Tuck]

Nope, black soldiers were sent back to slavery (or enslaved for the first time) if not executed. Their white officers were also subject to execution. White prisoners from union units were sent to terrible prison camps.

You act like a lefty, Uncensored, when you attempt (and always fail, in your case) to twist the evidence.

Federal prison camps were no vaction resort

Hey, ever hear of the Black Hole of Calcutta?

No, but they didn't have anywhere near the mortality rate as Andersonville. Even the Black Hole of Calcutta had a lower mortality rate than Andersonville.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Nope, black soldiers were sent back to slavery (or enslaved for the first time) if not executed. Their white officers were also subject to execution. White prisoners from union units were sent to terrible prison camps.

You act like a lefty, Uncensored, when you attempt (and always fail, in your case) to twist the evidence.

Federal prison camps were no vaction resort

Hey, ever hear of the Black Hole of Calcutta?

No, but they didn't have anywhere near the mortality rate as Andersonville. Even the Black Hole of Calcutta had a lower mortality rate than Andersonville.

Wrong-which you would know if you bothered to actually look at the facts that have been presented here.
http://reocities.com/BourbonStreet/2757/issues/camp.htm

"The South had Andersonville, an internationally known reminder of prison camp hardships and deaths, immortalized in song, literature, film and by many Union Monuments. The North had Camp Douglas, a little known civil war prison in Chicago that set records for prison mortality, hidden in lost and incomplete records and suppressed publicity. To the victor belongs the silence."

 

[Unkotare]

Lincoln destroyed the union as it existed prior to the Civil War. Before Lincoln, the United States was a voluntary union of states. Afterwards, it was the same kind of Union as the Soviet Union, a collection of captive states.

If you were suffering in a Soviet State, would you stay or would you try to leave if you could?

If I were a Lithuanian, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Ukrainian or a Georgian, I'd want my occupied country back from the aggressor who took it; and guess what-they eventually GOT their countries back! One day, we'll get ours back, too! No empire lasts forever, and this one won't either!

If you really believe this 'Da South shall rise again!' bullshit, stop being a fucking pussy and do something about it. You won't, of course - coward.

 

[GuyPinestra]

He's certainly a documented war criminal, a racist, and a traitor.

Nathan B. Forrest is none of those, but Lincoln is everyone of those things.

I suggest you study up on the Fort Pillow massacre, where your idol executed captured black soldiers, and sent the white prisoners to Andersonville.

Gadfly already posted the historical record of the Ft. Pillow 'massacre', you ignorant fucking hack. Try reading the whole thread before polluting it with your stupidity.

 

[GuyPinestra]

[ Lincoln refused because he didn't want peace. He wanted war.

No, he wanted to preserve the Union, and he did. The confederacy lost, and all your whining and crying won't change that, loser. Now, be an AMERICAN, or be gone with you.

Your definition of 'American' is someone who will swallow revisionist history without gagging on it. Every fucking 'fact' you fans of Lincoln have posted has been debunked by the very records kept by the 'victorious' Union.

Why do you dispute the records that your own people wrote?

 

[Dick Tuck]

Federal prison camps were no vaction resort

Hey, ever hear of the Black Hole of Calcutta?

No, but they didn't have anywhere near the mortality rate as Andersonville. Even the Black Hole of Calcutta had a lower mortality rate than Andersonville.

Wrong-which you would know if you bothered to actually look at the facts that have been presented here.
Camp Douglas

"The South had Andersonville, an internationally known reminder of prison camp hardships and deaths, immortalized in song, literature, film and by many Union Monuments. The North had Camp Douglas, a little known civil war prison in Chicago that set records for prison mortality, hidden in lost and incomplete records and suppressed publicity. To the victor belongs the silence."

You ought to check your math.

Camp Douglas (Chicago) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The official death toll at Camp Douglas has been put at 4,454.[217] Others have estimated that from 1862 through 1865, more than 6,000 Confederate prisoners died from disease, starvation, and the bitter cold winters (although as many as 1,500 more were reported as "unaccounted" for), based in part on an 1880's memorial in Chicago's Oak Woods Cemetery which states that 6,000 Confederate dead (4,275 known dead) are buried there in a mass grave.

About 26,060 Confederate soldiers had passed through the Camp Douglas prison camp by the end of the war.

Even the 6,000 number isn't even a quarter of the camp's population. And that's over a period of almost 3 years.

At Andersonville, the mortality was 12,913 of the approximately 45,000 Union prisoners, over 15 months.

Andersonville National Historic Site - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia