NATO wants to crush Kaliningrad

[ESay]

Because a referendum is a perfect chanse to find out the desires of people? No?

You don't see any reason of it? Apparently, the people that live there didn't see any reason to abide by the rules of government they didn't choose.

Do you think they should have referendums in all parts of Ukraine? I haven't heard of any desire for a refendum in Southern Ukraine and only a minority want it in Eastern Ukraine.

They did choose the government, they voted in elections. All regions of Ukraine voted for Zelensky, apart from Lvivska oblast.

Why do you want to break Ukraine up? Are you working for Putin also?

I don't want a break up of Ukraine. I want Ukraine to be a prosperous country. But, unfortunately we have now what we have. Your stance is illogical. If one group of people is allowed to seize state buildings and beat police and install their government, it is strange to blame others for doing the same.
Not all regions, the part of Donbas didn't vote altogether.

I agree with the main part what theHawk have written here. So, I don't want to repeat this again.

Btw, you wrote that you live also in another country. What this country is? Do you live there constantly?

It seems you do. Why would you want Ukraine to lose all of it's coastline and be surrounded by Russia on 3 sides? The police attacked and killed protestors.
I know Donbas didn't vote. I was talking about parts of Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine, which you claim want independence. They all voted in the elections.

You agree with The Hawk?!! What do you agree with?

A European country. No I don't live there constantly and I'm hoping to live in Ukraine permanently. If you're wondering, yes I am from Western Ukraine.

I said they wanted union with Russia. Or more precisely, they wanted Ukraine to be in union with Russia.

The part of Donbas didn't vote and said goodbye to this government. You can't demand anything from them now.

I agree with him on many parts. I don't want to repeat everything. In a nutshell, I already said this above - if one group of people is allowed to seize power, you can't blame others for doing the same.

Why didn't you name the country? Are you afraid?

Why should Ukraine want to join with Russia, because a minority want it?

I wasn't talking about Donbas. I was talking about other parts of Ukraine which you claimed want unification with Russia.

I thought you were on Ukraine's side, you seem to be on Russia's side.

The UK. Stratford57. I've been in London and there are thousands of Russians living and working there. They even have their own newspapers.

I don't say that Ukraine should unite with Russia. And I am against it. But if there is a government which is pro Russian and which has support from some regions and then someone overthrows this government, then backclash will occur.

And yes, I think that these parts would vote for a union with Russia. But newly formed Ukrainian government managed to keep them inside Ukraine. And this is a good thing. And they are adapting to new reality. The question about them is closed.

The question remains what to do with Donbas.

I am not on Russias side. And if you had come to this forum a couple of years ago, you would know that surely.

 

[Trizub]

No civilians have been deliberately targeted. The Russian side have killed civilians also incidentally. Why didn't you feel the same anger when Putin was bombing civilians in Chechnya?

Putin, Russia, Stratford57, the truth.

Putin was the one who stopped the war in Chechnya (inspirited, sponsored and supplied with weapons from abroad during Yeltsin's times) and now Chechnians keep showing the highest numbers of votes for him in the whole country: over 70 or even 80%. Go figure.

9 years after he became president.
That's because they know what he'll do to them if they don't support him.

You need to see a doctor about severe brain damage.

Why, because I'm not in the Putin fan club?

No. Just because you seem to have a brain damage.

Strange. I wouldn't say that about you, even though I completely disagree with your opinions.

 

[Trizub]

Do you think they should have referendums in all parts of Ukraine? I haven't heard of any desire for a refendum in Southern Ukraine and only a minority want it in Eastern Ukraine.

They did choose the government, they voted in elections. All regions of Ukraine voted for Zelensky, apart from Lvivska oblast.

Why do you want to break Ukraine up? Are you working for Putin also?

I don't want a break up of Ukraine. I want Ukraine to be a prosperous country. But, unfortunately we have now what we have. Your stance is illogical. If one group of people is allowed to seize state buildings and beat police and install their government, it is strange to blame others for doing the same.
Not all regions, the part of Donbas didn't vote altogether.

I agree with the main part what theHawk have written here. So, I don't want to repeat this again.

Btw, you wrote that you live also in another country. What this country is? Do you live there constantly?

It seems you do. Why would you want Ukraine to lose all of it's coastline and be surrounded by Russia on 3 sides? The police attacked and killed protestors.
I know Donbas didn't vote. I was talking about parts of Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine, which you claim want independence. They all voted in the elections.

You agree with The Hawk?!! What do you agree with?

A European country. No I don't live there constantly and I'm hoping to live in Ukraine permanently. If you're wondering, yes I am from Western Ukraine.

I said they wanted union with Russia. Or more precisely, they wanted Ukraine to be in union with Russia.

The part of Donbas didn't vote and said goodbye to this government. You can't demand anything from them now.

I agree with him on many parts. I don't want to repeat everything. In a nutshell, I already said this above - if one group of people is allowed to seize power, you can't blame others for doing the same.

Why didn't you name the country? Are you afraid?

Why should Ukraine want to join with Russia, because a minority want it?

I wasn't talking about Donbas. I was talking about other parts of Ukraine which you claimed want unification with Russia.

I thought you were on Ukraine's side, you seem to be on Russia's side.

The UK. Stratford57. I've been in London and there are thousands of Russians living and working there. They even have their own newspapers.

I don't say that Ukraine should unite with Russia. And I am against it. But if there is a government which is pro Russian and which has support from some regions and then someone overthrows this government, then backclash will occur.

And yes, I think that these parts would vote for a union with Russia. But newly formed Ukrainian government managed to keep them inside Ukraine. And this is a good thing. And they are adapting to new reality. The question about them is closed.

The question remains what to do with Donbas.

I am not on Russias side. And if you had come to this forum a couple of years ago, you would know that surely.

I hope that doesn't happen.

I'm not sure they would. Kharkiv didn't come under rebels control despite their attempts to take it.

It will probably have to have autonomy when the war has ended, they won't to be controllerd directly from Kyiv.

OK, I accept that. I only joined this forum in August.

 

[Stratford57]

Putin was the one who stopped the war in Chechnya (inspirited, sponsored and supplied with weapons from abroad during Yeltsin's times) and now Chechnians keep showing the highest numbers of votes for him in the whole country: over 70 or even 80%. Go figure.

9 years after he became president.
That's because they know what he'll do to them if they don't support him.

You need to see a doctor about severe brain damage.

Why, because I'm not in the Putin fan club?

No. Just because you seem to have a brain damage.

Strange. I wouldn't say that about you, even though I completely disagree with your opinions.

Ok, I apologize for being too sarcastic.

 

[Trizub]

9 years after he became president.
That's because they know what he'll do to them if they don't support him.

You need to see a doctor about severe brain damage.

Why, because I'm not in the Putin fan club?

No. Just because you seem to have a brain damage.

Strange. I wouldn't say that about you, even though I completely disagree with your opinions.

Ok, I apologize for being too sarcastic.

I don't mind it if you're not being serious. You should have used emojis.

 

[Trizub]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

 

[zaangalewa]

What's about Russia crushes NATO? Imbeciles like armenian jew Harrigan provokes WWIII.
It is understandable why only paid by CIA 'Russian' Fifth Column supports ideas like 'democracy' and 'human rights'. Most of Russians wants to stop any relationship with the West and western institutions.
The WWIII is coming and guilty on it are not Russians

But U.S. forces believe they know how to crack Kaliningrad, Gen Jeff Harrigan, commander of U.S. Air Forces in Europe, told reporters including Breaking Defense’s Sydney Freedberg, Jr. “We train to that,” Harrigian said. “We think through those plans all the time, and… if that would ever come to fruition, we’d be ready to execute.”

Russia's Kaliningrad Territory Is Armed to The Teeth. NATO Wants to Crush It in a War.

Kaliningrad is the old German city "Königsberg". The most famous inhabitant of Königsberg was Immanuel Kant. He wrote there in 1795 "Zum ewigen Frieden" (English: "Perpetual Peace") - sounds in German like the name of a pub and/or the way to heaven. So perhaps it's a good idea to read this writing and to speak about the ideas of this writing of the year 1795, before to write in puplic such an unbeliebvable irreal bullshit about a possible nuclear war between Russia and the USA or anyone else in the world.

Here a part of the summary from the English Wikipedia:

-----
Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch, Immanuel Kant, 1795

Summary:

In this essay, Kant proposed a peace program to be implemented by governments. The "Preliminary Articles" described these steps that should be taken immediately, or with all deliberate speed:

1. "No secret treaty of peace shall be held valid in which there is tacitly reserved matter for a future war"
2. "No independent states, large or small, shall come under the dominion of another state by inheritance, exchange, purchase, or donation"
3. "Standing armies shall in time be totally abolished"
4. "National debts shall not be contracted with a view to the external friction of states"
5. "No state shall by force interfere with the constitution or government of another state"
6. "No state shall, during war, permit such acts of hostility which would make mutual confidence in the subsequent peace impossible: such are the employment of assassins (percussores), poisoners (venefici), breach of capitulation, and incitement to treason (perduellio) in the opposing state"

Three Definitive Articles would provide not merely a cessation of hostilities, but a foundation on which to build a peace:

1. "The civil constitution of every state should be repubican"
2. "The law of nations shall be founded on a federation of free states"
3. "The law of world citizenship shall be limited to conditions of universal hospitality"

-----


And here the context in the bible:
-----
It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it, and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide disputes for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore; but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken. For all the peoples walk each in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God forever and ever.
-----

-----

 

[Stratford57]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

It only shows how corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs and top politicians are and how "independent" Ukraine is.

Ukrainian oligarchs and top politicians have been making lots of money on the war in Donbass increasing their incomes several times. The war is not over due to them ( not because "Putin occupied Ukraine", that's their poor excuse). Each of them controls certain groups and even battalions of Ukrainian Nazis, that's probably who were protesting today in Kiev.

Last week Trump told Zelensky "to come along with Putin" , we all saw that miserable face of Zelemsky listening to that. But... he probably knows our funny saying: "Who feeds a girl with a dinner will dance her".

It won't be any Maidan: wrong person in the WH at the moment.

 

[zaangalewa]

Russia should give Konigsburg back to Germany.

Ukraine & Polska all stolen territorials to Russia and Germany too.

This picture shows only a little part of the negative results of world 1+2 for Germans. Germany and Austria were for example a historical unity. No one is able to understand the German history without Austria or the Austrian history without Germany.

This was the multi-national empire Austria-Hungaria in 1913 projected to a globe, which shows the current states: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Austro-Hungary_Empire_(orthographic_projection).svg

But no German and no Austrian - except some few idiots - likes to turn back history to the year 1913. In 1913 ended this, what we could call "the good old time". This time is over. It was a brilliant time.

 

[zaangalewa]

Oh by the way: The Austrians had called 200 years ago the Russians and the Ukrainians both "Ruthens" (="Ruthenen"). It's time for Russians and Ukrainians to respect again each other as free brothers and sisters. All weapons in this pseudo-conflict between Ruthens and Ruthens, between Russians and Ukrainians, have to fall silent. Now and forever!

 

[Trizub]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

It only shows how corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs and top politicians are and how "independent" Ukraine is.

Ukrainian oligarchs and top politicians have been making lots of money on the war in Donbass increasing their incomes several times. The war is not over due to them ( not because "Putin occupied Ukraine", that's their poor excuse). Each of them controls certain groups and even battalions of Ukrainian Nazis, that's probably who were protesting today in Kiev.

Last week Trump told Zelensky "to come along with Putin" , we all saw that miserable face of Zelemsky listening to that. But... he probably knows our funny saying: "Who feeds a girl with a dinner will dance her".

It won't be any Maidan: wrong person in the WH at the moment.

You're wrong, it's ordinary citizens protesting. Zelensky has given Putin de facto control of Donbas.

Zelensky shouldn't be cooperating with Putin.

What's the WH got to do with it? Ukrainians have minds of their own, they don't need to take orders from Trump, your friend Soros or anybody else.

 

[Trizub]

Oh by the way: The Austrians had called 200 years ago the Russians and the Ukrainians both "Ruthens" (="Ruthenen"). It's time for Russians and Ukrainians to respect again each other as free brothers and sisters. All weapons in this pseudo-conflict between Ruthens and Ruthens, between Russians and Ukrainians, have to fall silent. Now and forever!

Only Ukrainians are Ruthenians, not Russians. Ukrainians aren't Russians, they're not the same people.

 

[Stratford57]

Ukrainians have minds of their own,.

It's a joke of the day. Your "mind of your own" is a bright example.

TheGuardian:
Skripal, a former paratrooper, supported Putin’s 2014 annexation of Crimea and referred disparagingly to Ukrainians as “simply sheep who needed a good shepherd”. Skripal also refused to believe Russian troops had entered eastern Ukraine covertly, saying that if they had, they would have quickly reached the capital, Kiev.
Sergei Skripal initially did not believe Russia tried to kill him – book

P.S If Ukrainians had mind of their own they would NOT destroy their own country just to please the West and , especially, American Deep State (including our favorite Soros).

 

[ESay]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

Personally I don't consider the Minsk agreements as a defeat of Ukraine. Moreover, at the time when they were signed it could be considered as a success, because they stopped a full scale war.

The question is how this agreements will be fulfilled. There are certain clauses there which Ukraine can turn to her advantage. The main problem is that Ukraine is only a subject. The big countries can make Ukraine to do what is suitable for them, not for her.

 

[Trizub]

Ukrainians have minds of their own,.

It's a joke of the day. Your "mind of your own" is a bright example.

TheGuardian:
Skripal, a former paratrooper, supported Putin’s 2014 annexation of Crimea and referred disparagingly to Ukrainians as “simply sheep who needed a good shepherd”. Skripal also refused to believe Russian troops had entered eastern Ukraine covertly, saying that if they had, they would have quickly reached the capital, Kiev.
Sergei Skripal initially did not believe Russia tried to kill him – book

P.S If Ukrainians had mind of their own they would NOT destroy their own country just to please the West and , especially, American Deep State (including our favorite Soros).

It's not a joke. Maidan wouldn't have happened in 2013 if Ukrainians didn't have a mind of their own, they would have let Yanukovich get away with selling Ukraine to Putin

You've already posted that about Skipal. I don't care what a brainwashed Russian thinks about Ukraine.

Ukraine does things to please itself, not your favourite Soros.

 

[Trizub]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

Personally I don't consider the Minsk agreements as a defeat of Ukraine. Moreover, at the time when they were signed it could be considered as a success, because they stopped a full scale war.

The question is how this agreements will be fulfilled. There are certain clauses there which Ukraine can turn to her advantage. The main problem is that Ukraine is only a subject. The big countries can make Ukraine to do what is suitable for them, not for her.

It's not yet known what will happen or whether the law will end. If Moscow is happy with the deal it is a defeat for Ukraine.

Not everything is known about it. No one knows everything which Zelensky has signed.

 

[Stratford57]

If Moscow is happy with the deal it is a defeat for Ukraine.

^ This is the root of all Ukrainian problems and tragedies.

 

[ESay]

It looks like there could be another Maidan, because Zelensky's agreed to the Steinmeier Formula.

Personally I don't consider the Minsk agreements as a defeat of Ukraine. Moreover, at the time when they were signed it could be considered as a success, because they stopped a full scale war.

The question is how this agreements will be fulfilled. There are certain clauses there which Ukraine can turn to her advantage. The main problem is that Ukraine is only a subject. The big countries can make Ukraine to do what is suitable for them, not for her.

It's not yet known what will happen or whether the law will end. If Moscow is happy with the deal it is a defeat for Ukraine.

Not everything is known about it. No one knows everything which Zelensky has signed.

Read the Minsk agreements. They are easily googled. Everything is written there. So called formula only clarifies some stages of implementing them.

 

[Baron]

No a trash can like Ukraine decides about the western policy toward Russia.
Not only Crimea alone but also 90 % of Ukraine belong to Russia!

No part of Ukraine belongs to Russia.
Crimea is Ukraine!

Ukraine was dissolved when the revolutionaries threw out their constitution in order to choose a new leader and government.
You don’t just get to throw out the rule book and then try to use the same rule book to claim what your borders are. When forming a new country, you only get to claim the land you hold with your army and who ever willingly participates in that new government.

Crimea clearly did not and they chose to side with Russia. Funny how you fascists don’t give a shit about democracy. It didn’t work for you when trying to remove the rightfully elected president, and you ignore the will of the people in Crimea.

Ukraine has been dissoved? Russia signed the Budapest memorandum in 1994 agreeing to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine giving up it's nuclear weapons. Russia broke the treaty, it is the aggressor, stop passing the blame.

The Crimea referendum was a fake referendum. What facists? The Ukrainian government aren't fascists, nor have they ever been. The fascists are in Russia, why do you think your president is known as Putler?

Yes, Ukraine was dissolved when they threw out their constitution since they couldn’t legally remove the President they didn’t like.

You don’t automatically get to keep the same borders and people, especially when there is a split. The ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine voted to be a part of the Russian Federation. You can cry about it not being “legitimate” because the vote didn’t go the way you wanted, but tough shit. Also, your new Ukrainian army was too weak to take it over. Thus you don’t own it.

Yes they could and they did.

"The ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine voted to be a part of the Russian Federation."
When did that vote happen?

Do you can't read newspapers?

 

[Baron]

I am not sure about Donbas, but forget about Crimea. Sanctions will be dropped. Of course, some personal and formal sanctions may exist for eternity, but they will have insignificant effect if any. I thought that story about the Council of Europe should have opened your eyes. Also, the claims about Russia and G7 didn't come from nothing.

About the referendum. I don't know what you meant by internal politics. The ruling coalition openly supported the Association agreement. It is logical to assume that this coalition has support of the majority. But the Agreement was supported only by 30% of the voters.

Yes, you posted the link. And I gave my opinion about that.

I know it will be very difficult to get Crimea back and there will be a difficult situation in Crimea when the war has ended there also. You seem to support no sanctions against Russia. Putin's aggressive actions against his neighbours can't go unpunished. I know about that vote. Sanctions must remain in place whatever.

The voters in that referendum were unhappy with the Dutch government, many gave a protest vote against the government, it wasn't because they're anti Ukrainian

Which I read.

It is not about what I support. It is all about reality. The current sanctions target mostly European companies. And it is understandable that many countries in Europe want to abolish them.
And that is normal. Everyone pursues own interests. Ukraine should take care of itself finally.

Is I am not mistaken, the same people got reelected in the Netherelends afterwards.

I understand what you're saying, but Russia can't be allowed to get away with it's actions.

It was something to do with them being unhappy with the EU and immigration. Only 32% voted in the referendum.

Well, Russia doesn't ask anyone's permission. She has been doing what she is considered needed to do. And Europe is too busy with economic issues and internal conflicts to get involved into a long conflict with Russia.

Yes, they were unhappy with immigration and feared that the Agreement would open borders for Ukrainians. The Dutch government even demanded to insert a clause that the Agreement doesn't mean a step to the EU membership.

I'm not expecting there to be a conflict between Europe and Russia and I don't want that to happen.

I don't know whether they did, Ukraine is still hoping to get full EU membership.

Probably in 200 years, EU has enough parasites.