Zone1 No Wonder Why I Had Doubts In God's Existence Before

[Blues Man]

All you are providing here is a contradiction with no supporting evidence. Arguing I can't know anything because I don't know everything is illogical. There is nothing arrogant in believing the universe is an intelligence creating machine. I have no idea what the limits are to human intelligence and that has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. The evolution of space and time did produce intelligence. We know this for a fact.

What evidence can there be for the statement "WE don't really know"?

I'm not the one making definitive statements on how the universe came to be or that the "spirits" that made it did so with a specific intention in mind.

Much of your evidence is nothing but your speculation therefore it ain't evidence.

 

[ding]

Nope.

We know how particles react and behave we do not know that there was some "spirit" whatever that is that wrote all these laws first then made things to fit them

And don't forget all these laws that you say we know and understand only work for 5% of all the matter end energy we know exists in the universe and there may be even more matter and energy that we have no idea of.

Again... all you are providing here is a contradiction with no supporting evidence.

I made 6 foundational points in my post and you have refuted none of them. Walk me through what you disagree with and why?

1. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information.
2. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.
3. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence.
4. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
5. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
6. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect.

 

[ding]

And don't forget all these laws that you say we know and understand only work for 5% of all the matter end energy we know exists in the universe and there may be even more matter and energy that we have no idea of.

Are you trying to argue the universe wasn't created? Because it was. Plenty of evidence for that.

Are you trying to argue we can't know anything because we can't know everything? Because that's ridiculous. We know the universe popped into existence and began to expand and cool. We know that beings that know and create eventually arose. Plenty of evidence for that.

Where's YOUR evidence?

 

[ding]

What evidence can there be for the statement "WE don't really know"?

None, but it's not stopping you from saying you KNOW the universe wasn't created by spirit.

But the real problem with your argument is that there are lots of things we know and those are the things I am discussing.

 

[ding]

I'm not the one making definitive statements on how the universe came to be or that the "spirits" that made it did so with a specific intention in mind.

But we do know the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. So why can't I make that definitive statement?

And we can infer that it was done so intentionally because of the implausibility of an intelligence and life capable producing universe that spontaneously popping into existence.

 

[Blues Man]

Again... all you are providing here is a contradiction with no supporting evidence.

I made 6 foundational points in my post and you have refuted none of them. Walk me through what you disagree with and why?

1. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information.
2. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.
3. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence.
4. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
5. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
6. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect.

Yeah it's a theory like all theories and remains unproven.

And please tell me what evidence is there for the statement , " We don't know everything:?

Tell you what you get me a bottle of this "spirit" and show it to me then I'll believe that it exists.

I can argue that your "spirit" or this intelligence you say created everything is just some nerdy alien writing a computer program and you couldn't prove me wrong could you?

 

[Blues Man]

But we do know the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence. So why can't I make that definitive statement?

And we can infer that it was done so intentionally because of the implausibility of an intelligence and life capable producing universe that spontaneously popping into existence.

We know no such thing.

All we know is that the universe came to be and that we came to be within that universe.

If we do not know what happened the nanosecond before the universe came to be we do not know what the cause was.

You say the cause was a god. I could just as easily say it was an alien hitting the run key

 

[ding]

Yeah it's a theory like all theories and remains unproven.

And please tell me what evidence is there for the statement , " We don't know everything:?

Tell you what you get me a bottle of this "spirit" and show it to me then I'll believe that it exists.

I can argue that your "spirit" or this intelligence you say created everything is just some nerdy alien writing a computer program and you couldn't prove me wrong could you?

Does this mean you can't refute any of my 6 foundational points? Not even one of them?

 

[ding]

We know no such thing.

All we know is that the universe came to be and that we came to be within that universe.

If we do not know what happened the nanosecond before the universe came to be we do not know what the cause was.

You say the cause was a god. I could just as easily say it was an alien hitting the run key

You don't know the universe popped into existence?

You don't know the universe produced intelligence?

 

[ding]

If we do not know what happened the nanosecond before the universe came to be we do not know what the cause was.

You say the cause was a god. I could just as easily say it was an alien hitting the run key

But we do know the laws of nature existed before the universe was created because the universe was created according to those laws. And those laws of nature are incorporeal. So we have a known example of the incorporeal existing before space and time.

And we do know that the universe was not created from pre-existing matter. Even your argument that the universe is a computer simulation requires a creator. In fact, that argument is perfectly in agreement with everything I have said which is that intelligence created the universe. This is a life breeding, intelligence creating universe because the constant presence of mind made it so. And that's exactly what the evolution of space and time shows.

 

[Blues Man]

Does this mean you can't refute any of my 6 foundational points? Not even one of them?

I don't have to because they are all based on an as yet unproven supposition.

Namely the existence of this thing you call "spirit" or god.

And that this "spirit" wrote these laws and then built a universe to follow them and that this "spirit " somehow imbued the universe with a purpose to carry out.

What you want to call a law is nothing but relationships that we humans have noticed between things that exist and it is we humans who have called them laws not any "spirit".

Not to mention this "spirit" you cannot prove exists is not beholden to any of these laws because conveniently for you it is not part of this universe so that means there are different "laws" somewhere else right? And you can't tell us where this somewhere else actually is can you?

 

[Blues Man]

You don't know the universe popped into existence?

You don't know the universe produced intelligence?

That is the working theory that best fits our paltry understanding of the universe.

And things in the universe may have produced intelligence by some random confluence of events but that in no way means the universe itself willed intelligence into being.

 

[Blues Man]

But we do know the laws of nature existed before the universe was created because the universe was created according to those laws. And those laws of nature are incorporeal. So we have a known example of the incorporeal existing before space and time.

And we do know that the universe was not created from pre-existing matter. Even your argument that the universe is a computer simulation requires a creator. In fact, that argument is perfectly in agreement with everything I have said which is that intelligence created the universe. This is a life breeding, intelligence creating universe because the constant presence of mind made it so. And that's exactly what the evolution of space and time shows.

No we don't.

One of these laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed is it not?

So what we call" laws" of matter did not exist before there was any matter it couldn't have.

 

[ding]

I don't have to because they are all based on an as yet unproven supposition.

If that were the case you would be able to provide a counter argument explaining how they were unproven suppositions. But you didn't.

1. How do we NOT live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information?
2. How are rules, laws and information NOT signs of intelligence?
3. How is intentionality and purpose NOT signs of intelligence?
4. How is the definition of reason NOT a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event?
5. How is the definition of purpose NOT the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists?
6. How are the consequence of a logical universe NOT that every cause has an effect?

You just can't claim they are unproven supposition just by your say so. You have to provide a reason or a counter argument.

 

[ding]

Namely the existence of this thing you call "spirit" or god.

You are skipping steps. You have to address the basis for that statement. Namely:

1. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information.
2. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.
3. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence.
4. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
5. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
6. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect.

And you haven't done that yet.

 

[ding]

And that this "spirit" wrote these laws and then built a universe to follow them and that this "spirit " somehow imbued the universe with a purpose to carry out.

Not exactly. It's more like the nature of the constant presence of mind created an alternate reality and naturally imbued it with its attributes.

As for purpose, purpose is an artifact of what something is and its natural expression of thus. Just look at nature to see it. It's all around you.

 

[ding]

What you want to call a law is nothing but relationships that we humans have noticed between things that exist and it is we humans who have called them laws not any "spirit".

I never said laws were a spirit or called laws by spirit. I said the natural laws are incorporeal like a spirit. And like a spirit, anything incorporeal can exist outside of space and time eternally because it is not bound by physical laws.

As for whether a law is descriptive or prescriptive, it is both. Laws both prescribe and describe the state of reality. The important thing to know about laws is that they are a sign of intelligence. Laws both describe and prescribe how order comes from chaos.

 

[ding]

Not to mention this "spirit" you cannot prove exists is not beholden to any of these laws because conveniently for you it is not part of this universe so that means there are different "laws" somewhere else right? And you can't tell us where this somewhere else actually is can you?

But I have proven a creator exists. Just not to you. I have no doubts. For you there is no evidence you will accept. You have shut your mind off to it. So I don't waste my time trying to convince you. I waste my time countering you. Primarily using the only evidence we have at our disposal; the creation of the universe and the evolution of space and time.

It's because of your unrealistic and limited perception of the creator that you speak in terms of laws governing the creator. God is every extant attribute of reality. Which means God isn't a thing. What laws do you suppose applies to the incorporeal? I can't think of any. Think of God as the source or matrix of existence. The one true reality. From which all realities proceed from.

 

[ding]

That is the working theory that best fits our paltry understanding of the universe.

And things in the universe may have produced intelligence by some random confluence of events but that in no way means the universe itself willed intelligence into being.

Life is literally written into the fabric of matter and energy. There is nothing random about that or about life and intelligence being produced. It was only a matter of time. It's because you don't accept this fact that you can't see creation as being an intentional act to produce beings that know and create.

 

[ding]

No we don't.

One of these laws is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed is it not?

So what we call" laws" of matter did not exist before there was any matter it couldn't have.

Yes we do. I've already explained this to you several times now so please pay close attention to this.

In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.