NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon users: Why?

[saveliberty]

This has been going on for the last seven years and NOW you people are whining about it? You deserve what you stupidly condoned.

Started in April read the article. When did any of us vote in Congress Ravi? Just a glimmer of honesty is all I need from you.

 

[flacaltenn]

To be consistent, I was pissed when "W" was invading our privacy and I'm pissed now that The Big "O" is doing it.
My questions are, how many posters defended "W" but are now attacking "O"? How many posters attacked "W" but are defending "O"?

Certainly almost NO self-identified libertarians did that. Certainly almost no one who supports the ACLU or the IJ did that..

Guess it's the rest of you party animals who never understood us weirdos REALLY WORKING to keep civil liberties in the face of assault from EVERY political angle..

From a policy standpoint --- most of our "privacy" and civil liberties were already lost due to the War on Drugs. Yes -- it goes back that far..

Better understand the childish finger-pointing here and wake the hell up.. And start firing some asses who don't understand..

 

[paulitician]

The Government/Corporate Complex. An Evil collaboration for sure.

 

[Ravi]

This has been going on for the last seven years and NOW you people are whining about it? You deserve what you stupidly condoned.

Started in April read the article. When did any of us vote in Congress Ravi? Just a glimmer of honesty is all I need from you.

No, it didn't start in April. It started years ago. It is renewed every three months, just like it has been for years.

I repeat, it has been going on for seven years. Many of us have been against it all along while the rest of you have been silent (except for that funny thread Sallow dredged up with rightwingnutters applauding Bush for doing it).

Like I said, you deserve what you stupidly condoned.

 

[editec]

Someone please correct me if they KNOW I am wrong but I do not think that

"TELEPHONIC META-DATA" is NOT a listening wiretap on each phone number

I believe that this is a data about each connection made but NOT the content of each connection.

I have NO idea what they might be looking for, but I do not think they are listening to millions of calls.

I suspect that this kind of data can provide is patterns of telephonic activity that suggest some of ORGANIZED telephonic behavior.

I do not think they are looking for mad bombers or the left or the right, I do think they are looking for evidence of ORGANIZATIONAL behaviors on the system.

Just a guess, of course, but based on what we've been told about this event, they're looking for something much more subtle than what most of us seem to think they're looking for.

What for example might they find with this KIND of metadata

Telephone TREES..... leading to organized groups.

I suspect they could ferret out that sort of pattern of use fairly easily with that kind of META DATA on telephonic use.

And THEN once those telephone trees are identified, they could target those numbers for closer scrutiny.

Hell, if I was running NSA, I definitely have something like that in place, too.

 

[g5000]

This has been going on for the last seven years and NOW you people are whining about it? You deserve what you stupidly condoned.

Started in April read the article. When did any of us vote in Congress Ravi? Just a glimmer of honesty is all I need from you.

Let's take just a short trip back in time to 2006:

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services — primarily long-distance and wireless — to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

 

[saveliberty]

It is a tool to find associations and not call content. Ravi, you are wrong, it was restricted to calls that had a foreign origin and a domestic link in the beginning, this is an expansion. Why do you seem more intent on protecting who is doing it than the fact it exists?

 

[g5000]

After searching your phone records, Bush asked Congress to give retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies which turned over your records:

The Bush administration maintains that the changes are consistent with FISA's intent--that targeting foreign communications doesn't require a warrant--and that a warrant is still required for "targeting a person in the United States." But civil-liberties advocates argue that the government is creating a loophole to monitor Americans' e-mails and phone calls to overseas contacts without the intended court approval.

The new law also immunizes from legal liability the private companies that assist the government with surveillance going forward, but Bush repeated existing calls for making that policy retroactive as well.

"It's particularly important for Congress to provide meaningful liability protection to those companies now facing multibillion-dollar lawsuits only because they are believed to have assisted in efforts to defend our nation, following the 9/11 attacks," Bush said.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which has sued AT&T over its allegedly illegal cooperation with the government, says references to the crippling liability posed by such suits suggest that the scope of the wiretapping is "massive."

The Republican Congress passed the law, giving them that immunity.

 

[g5000]

It is a tool to find associations and not call content. Ravi, you are wrong, it was restricted to calls that had a foreign origin and a domestic link in the beginning, this is an expansion. Why do you seem more intent on protecting who is doing it than the fact it exists?

You are the one who is wrong. Read my last two posts.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Someone please correct me if they KNOW I am wrong but I do not think that

"TELEPHONIC META-DATA" is NOT a listening wiretap on each phone number

I believe that what this is a data about each connection made but NOT the content of each connection.

I have NO idea what they might be looking for, but I do not think they are listening to millions of calls.

I suspect that this kind of data can provide is patterns of telephonic activity that suggest some of ORGANIZED telephonic behavior.

I do not think they are looking for mad bombers or the left or the right, I do think they are looking for evidence of ORGANIZATIONAL behaviors on the system.

Just a guess, of course, but based on what we've been told about this event, they're looking for something much more subtle than what most of us seem to think they're looking for.

They're not saving content....BUT, they can deem or use some subjective method of acquiring that content if they feel necessary to do so.....which is still wrong.

 

[flacaltenn]

Someone please correct me if they KNOW I am wrong but I do not think that

"TELEPHONIC META-DATA" is NOT a listening wiretap on each phone number

I believe that what this is a data about each connection made but NOT the content of each connection.

I have NO idea what they might be looking for, but I do not think they are listening to millions of calls.

I suspect that this kind of data can provide is patterns of telephonic activity that suggest some of ORGANIZED telephonic behavior.

I do not think they are looking for mad bombers or the left or the right, I do think they are looking for evidence of ORGANIZATIONAL behaviors on the system.

Just a guess, of course, but based on what we've been told about this event, they're looking for something much more subtle than what most of us seem to think they're looking for.

See the thread on "dont worry -- it's just metadata"... If you gave me your phone metadata, I know where you bank, your business clients, where you've been, who you've been with when you traveled, and maybe even a good guess at whether you were having an affair or own a weapon. CARE TO PLAY????

No one is gonna win this argument saying that all that info is harmless. Especially when you know in detail how it can be combined and ENRICHED with other other infomation out ther in the grasp of the govt..

 

[g5000]

Obama administration defends collecting phone records from Verizon customers - chicagotribune.com

The leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee said today the collection of telephone records from millions of Americans as part of counterterrorism efforts has been going on for seven years and lawmakers were aware of it.

Lawmakers weren't the only ones aware this has been going on for a long time. Those of us who aren't brain dead partisan hacks have also been aware of it.

Senators Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, and Saxby Chambliss, a Georgia Republican, told reporters they did not have a problem with the government's secret collection of records from millions of Verizon customers.

Oh, look! Bipartisanship!

 

[g5000]

Someone please correct me if they KNOW I am wrong but I do not think that

"TELEPHONIC META-DATA" is NOT a listening wiretap on each phone number

I believe that what this is a data about each connection made but NOT the content of each connection.

I have NO idea what they might be looking for, but I do not think they are listening to millions of calls.

I suspect that this kind of data can provide is patterns of telephonic activity that suggest some of ORGANIZED telephonic behavior.

I do not think they are looking for mad bombers or the left or the right, I do think they are looking for evidence of ORGANIZATIONAL behaviors on the system.

Just a guess, of course, but based on what we've been told about this event, they're looking for something much more subtle than what most of us seem to think they're looking for.

See the thread on "dont worry -- it's just metadata"... If you gave me your phone metadata, I know where you bank, your business clients, where you've been, who you've been with when you traveled, and maybe even a good guess at whether you were having an affair or own a weapon. CARE TO PLAY????

No one is gonna win this argument saying that all that info is harmless. Especially when you know in detail how it can be combined and ENRICHED with other other infomation out ther in the grasp of the govt..

Exactly. The government would not be collecting this data if they could not glean valuable information about American citizens out of it.

The idea this is "harmless" flies in the face of logic.

 

[Antares]

She isn't bright enough to know the difference.

It is a tool to find associations and not call content. Ravi, you are wrong, it was restricted to calls that had a foreign origin and a domestic link in the beginning, this is an expansion. Why do you seem more intent on protecting who is doing it than the fact it exists?

 

[flacaltenn]

Problem is that many folks have listened to much to talking heads with an interest in seeing the NSA do this work.. And not thought about how much you can learn about a person from DATA MINING this information.. Spend a couple minutes thinking about it -- if you think it's harmless..

 

[Plasmaball]

See now this is a scandal. America should be outraged and most likely they wont care.

 

[saveliberty]

It is a tool to find associations and not call content. Ravi, you are wrong, it was restricted to calls that had a foreign origin and a domestic link in the beginning, this is an expansion. Why do you seem more intent on protecting who is doing it than the fact it exists?

You are the one who is wrong. Read my last two posts.

I think the current evidence is better, but no matter. So we agree this practice should be stopped?

 

[g5000]

She isn't bright enough to know the difference.

It is a tool to find associations and not call content. Ravi, you are wrong, it was restricted to calls that had a foreign origin and a domestic link in the beginning, this is an expansion. Why do you seem more intent on protecting who is doing it than the fact it exists?

saveliberty is wrong, and now so are you.

I have posted more than enough evidence pointing out how wrong both of you are.

This is has been going on since Bush. saveliberty has confused the warrantless wiretapping of overseas calls with this program, which is a completely different effort to collect tens of millions of Americans phone records, which has been going on for a long time.


You are the one not bright enough to know the difference.

 

[Seawytch]

When Bush was in office there were rules. One side of the call had to be in a foreign country, and be a number or from a person known to be on a terrorist watch list. This is not the equal of Americans making local calls to one another no matter HOW liberals want to make it so. The taps under Bush were to identify those who would bring harm to the country. The taps under obama are to identify those who are critical of obama.

These are not wiretaps. Same rules as with the Bush Administration. They even gave the telecoms immunity after the fact. Now of course the Warrant(s) absolves the Telecoms.....

Ready to repeal the Patriot Act yet?

54 Democrats in the House voted to extend the Patriot Act in 2011. Are you lobbying them yet?

54 out of a couple hundred. How many Republicans?

 

[Sallow]

Someone please correct me if they KNOW I am wrong but I do not think that

"TELEPHONIC META-DATA" is NOT a listening wiretap on each phone number

I believe that what this is a data about each connection made but NOT the content of each connection.

I have NO idea what they might be looking for, but I do not think they are listening to millions of calls.

I suspect that this kind of data can provide is patterns of telephonic activity that suggest some of ORGANIZED telephonic behavior.

I do not think they are looking for mad bombers or the left or the right, I do think they are looking for evidence of ORGANIZATIONAL behaviors on the system.

Just a guess, of course, but based on what we've been told about this event, they're looking for something much more subtle than what most of us seem to think they're looking for.

They're not saving content....BUT, they can deem or use some subjective method of acquiring that content if they feel necessary to do so.....which is still wrong.

Of course it is.

And it's stupid.

It's the spraying the skies with buckshot method of snooping, hoping you will bag a bird.

And..they get overwhelmed with information. So much so they can't possibly analyze it.

Not to mention..it's just plain wrong. And it has a cooling effect on the journalists and lawyers.

All around it's a bad thing for Democracy.