Number of guns in society falling sharply

[Skull Pilot]

Why should responsible gun owners have restrictions placed on them?

responsible people should not be held accountable for the acts of others.

Same reason responsible drivers do.

I've been driving for 30 years. I've had less than five moving violations in that time.

And what restrictions are being placed on you that are being placed on a guy with 3 DUIs?

Are you unable to drive at certain times because some other bad driver broke the law?

yet I'm still required to get insurance, get a licence, get an emmissions test, get a registration, etc for the privilage of driving a car.

Gun ownership is not a privilege it's a right.

BIG difference there Sparky.

I'm required to wear a seat belt.

I have to follow a bunch of traffic rules.

And I have to follow a bunch of rules to carry a weapon

 

[The Rabbi]

Joe is almost as much of an ignorant troll as the Finnish reindeer sucker.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Joe is almost as much of an ignorant troll as the Finnish reindeer sucker.

I love control freaks who say you can't compare gun deaths to driving deaths but then compare regulating guns to regulating driving.

Holding diametrically opposed beliefs is a sign of mental illness.

 

[Ernie S.]

Ernie -

Three separate American surveys have concluded that the number of households owning guns has fallen sharply.

What we see on this thread is that some pro-gun people do not think we should be allowed to discuss that. Hence we see Rabbi and Westspam trying to drown these threads with spam, abuse and diversions.

I disagree. I say - let's discuss it.

If you do not want to discuss it - scroll past.

The facts don't support your "studies" While I'll grant that the percentage of American families that own guns may be slightly lower than say 60 years ago, the fact that there are now twice as many families, the percentage would have had to fall to half to keep the number equal and past half to actually decrease it.
The fact that the raw number of guns in the US has doubled since the 50's makes it very unlikely the percentages have gone from >50% to ca 32% in 2010.
It would be more logical to surmise that people are refusing to admit that they own guns, #1 because of popular opinion that says if you own more than 1 gun, your a "gun nut" and #2, they don't want to end up on a list the government could get their hands on.

But, if you can prove that I didn't lie when I got a phone call asking if I had one or more guns in my home, have at it.

 

[Saigon]

Ernie -

While I'll grant that the percentage of American families that own guns may be slightly lower than say 60 years ago, the fact that there are now twice as many families, the percentage would have had to fall to half to keep the number equal and past half to actually decrease it.

Yes, I agree.

I have never claimed that the total number of gunshas decreased, only that the nunber of households holding guns has decreased. The surveys suggest that shift is quite dramatic.

I think we can agree that people who own guns likely own more guns now than they did 20 years ago.

It would be more logical to surmise that people are refusing to admit that they own guns, #1 because of popular opinion that says if you own more than 1 gun, your a "gun nut" and #2, they don't want to end up on a list the government could get their hands on.

I don't see any logic in someone agreeing to take part in a survey on arms - and then deliberately lying.

 

[Saigon]

Holding diametrically opposed beliefs is a sign of mental illness.

You mean like claiming that guns protect people, when the homicide rate in the US is ten times that in which less guns are owned?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Templar -

It does seem that the American people have been brainwashed not only into accepting as normal a murder rate TEN TIMES that of similar nations, but into not questioning and not discussing that fact.

Any move to inspire American people to question more and discuss more would have to be positive.

Rabbi - please stop spamming the thread with infantile gibberish.

Saigon; despite your impassioned pleas that America be stripped of civil rights - the fact is that murder rates have steadily declined for the last 50 years. Our murder rates are falling, and have been falling - in direct contrast to the fiction that you of the anti-civil rights movement try to promote.

 

[Saigon]

Uncensored -

I totally agree that the murder rates in the US have been falling. That's a fact.

However, murder rates in the US remain at levels that would be considered a disaster in any other western country - far higher than any other major westrnised economy. That is also a fact.

despite your impassioned pleas that America be stripped of civil rights

Oh, not at all!! My position here is absolutely about increasing the level of rights, without question.

However - gun owners are NOT the only people with rights.

 

[Ernie S.]

Are you just not capable of reading. Yes, there are more guns, but in the hands of fewer people.

So while most families are getting guns out of the home, you have more people like Nancy Lanza stocking up on guns like the Zombie Apocolypse was coming.

(And look how well that turned out!)

Unfortunately, the gun industry realizes that the crazy people are it's market. So instead of doing what a responsible industry does, they market more to the crazies, and even encourage it.

Poor Joe. Ignorant and stupid is no way to go through life, s0n.

Being part of an increasingly crazy fringe isn't either.

If you said to me, "Joe, I'm a responsible gun owner, and I agree, we need to take measures to keep guns out of the hands of people like Adam Lanza and Joker Holmes", I would totally respect that.

But your position is, "You are infringing on my right to shoot at the government if I choose to, so we aren't oging to have ANY restrictions", then shit, man, there's no good reason to let you have guns.

The thing is, you guys aren't treating the privilage of gun ownership like a privilage that is treated responsibly.

Most American families don't have guns, and they see those of you with them as increasingly crazy.

There are already laws to keep guns out of the hands of crazies.
The fact that I have 10 or 12 guns does not make me a crazy. The fact that someone else might own 100 doesn't make him a terrorist anymore than the fact that I am contemplating the purchase of an M-2 makes me a right wing militia member.
What you refuse to address is that the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by people who don't believe that current laws don't apply to them.
Want to cut down on gun crimes? Issue search warrants for every gang banger on probation for a felony conviction and seize any weapons found.
Make it a 10 year minimum incarceration for anyone convicted of a fire arm crime after a felony conviction.
It you want to end crime and shit, go after criminals, but leave my guns the fuck alone!

 

[Ernie S.]

Why should responsible gun owners have restrictions placed on them?

responsible people should not be held accountable for the acts of others.

Same reason responsible drivers do.

I've been driving for 30 years. I've had less than five moving violations in that time.

yet I'm still required to get insurance, get a licence, get an emmissions test, get a registration, etc for the privilage of driving a car.

I'm required to wear a seat belt.

I have to follow a bunch of traffic rules.

Can you point out where in the Bill of Rights it says that your right to drive shall not be infringed?

 

[Ernie S.]

Ernie -

While I'll grant that the percentage of American families that own guns may be slightly lower than say 60 years ago, the fact that there are now twice as many families, the percentage would have had to fall to half to keep the number equal and past half to actually decrease it.

Yes, I agree.

I have never claimed that the total number of gunshas decreased, only that the nunber of households holding guns has decreased. The surveys suggest that shift is quite dramatic.

I think we can agree that people who own guns likely own more guns now than they did 20 years ago.

It would be more logical to surmise that people are refusing to admit that they own guns, #1 because of popular opinion that says if you own more than 1 gun, your a "gun nut" and #2, they don't want to end up on a list the government could get their hands on.

I don't see any logic in someone agreeing to take part in a survey on arms - and then deliberately lying.

Let's say I call you on the phone and ask if you have ever exposed yourself in public. Wouldn't you want to be on the "No" list, no matter what the truth is?
The left is attempting to stigmatize gun ownership. I've lived with social stigmas for 45 years. I've had people try to run me off the road because the see me as a worthless "biker".
Frankly, if someone called my house, I would deny gun ownership in a heartbeat.

Please use the quote function when you reply to me. I'm not saying that you would twist my words or ignore context, but proper use of the quote function leave a link that points to the post you are quoting and saves people a lot of time looking for the material you are replying to.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uncensored -

I totally agree that the murder rates in the US have been falling. That's a fact.

However, murder rates in the US remain at levels that would be considered a disaster in any other western country - far higher than any other major westrnised economy. That is also a fact.

Again, the USA is a separate nation, with VERY different demographics. While murder rates in France, Spain and the UK increase, they fall in the USA. Does that mean anything? Well, yeah - it means that France, Spain, and the UK are increasing the numbers of third world populations who are not assimilated into the main culture.

We don't like being honest - it is forbidden by the left - but the murder rate among WHITES in America is identical to that of most West European nations.

What does that mean? It means that a homogenous culture with a common language and agreed upon moral standards is more stable with less crime.

Now you have an agenda, you seek to strip civil rights from people. In pursuit of that goal, you assign motives to inanimate objects - of course that is utter stupidity, a gun is a machine - it has no emotions, no desires, no motives. People killed each other with greater savagery before the gun was invented - with a ruling elite slaughtering commoners without restraint.

And this, is the true basis of your desire to strip others of civil rights; the fact that commoners can effectively combat the Aristocracy. Europe has never come to grips with the concept of equal rights, that commoners should be afforded the same rights as their "betters"

Guns are the great equalizer. The knights trained in sword and spear have no advantage over the commoner - and that offends the European who clings to the notion of divine rights.

Oh, not at all!! My position here is absolutely about increasing the level of rights, without question.

Increasing rights through stripping rights.

Orwell would have loved you.

However - gun owners are NOT the only people with rights.

In America, basic rights are enumerated. Among them is the right to defend ourselves. We are not expected to submit to the gentry in exchange for them protecting us (from them) as Europe clings to.

 

[Ernie S.]

Holding diametrically opposed beliefs is a sign of mental illness.

You mean like claiming that guns protect people, when the homicide rate in the US is ten times that in which less guns are owned?

That's only logical. You can't kill someone with a gun if you can't own one, but you could use a knife, an automobile, a hammer, sword, poison and your victim wouldn't have the means to defend himself from you.

You lose sight of the fact that the goal is to prevent murder, not only murder with guns. A gun is no more deadly than a knife or an ax, only more efficient. It is also a very efficient tool for fending off a psychopath with a cleaver.

 

[Ernie S.]

Uncensored -

I totally agree that the murder rates in the US have been falling. That's a fact.

However, murder rates in the US remain at levels that would be considered a disaster in any other western country - far higher than any other major westrnised economy. That is also a fact.

despite your impassioned pleas that America be stripped of civil rights

Oh, not at all!! My position here is absolutely about increasing the level of rights, without question.

However - gun owners are NOT the only people with rights.

You do not have the right to demand I give up my gun unless I prove that I don't deserve that right.

 

[Saigon]

Uncensored -

Increasing rights through stripping rights.

I have no idea where you get the idea of 'stripping' rights from - the basic concept of public safety is one of increasing rights and empowering people.

The right to go to school and feel safe. The right to be safe at work. The right for a child to feel safe at home.

When I hear gun fans start to address those rights, I'll certainly listen.

While murder rates in France, Spain and the UK increase, they fall in the USA. Does that mean anything? Well, yeah - it means that France, Spain, and the UK are increasing the numbers of third world populations who are not assimilated into the main culture.

It means that you haven't looked at the stats - the murder rate in the UK is at its lowest point for decades. Do go and check.

 

[Ernie S.]

Saigon

Orwell would have loved me.

See how that works?
Learn to use the quote function.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Holding diametrically opposed beliefs is a sign of mental illness.

You mean like claiming that guns protect people, when the homicide rate in the US is ten times that in which less guns are owned?

But guns do protect and have protected people.

And not all homicides are committed with guns.

 

[Missourian]

Ernie -

While I'll grant that the percentage of American families that own guns may be slightly lower than say 60 years ago, the fact that there are now twice as many families, the percentage would have had to fall to half to keep the number equal and past half to actually decrease it.

Yes, I agree.

I have never claimed that the total number of gunshas decreased, only that the nunber of households holding guns has decreased. The surveys suggest that shift is quite dramatic.

I think we can agree that people who own guns likely own more guns now than they did 20 years ago.

It would be more logical to surmise that people are refusing to admit that they own guns, #1 because of popular opinion that says if you own more than 1 gun, your a "gun nut" and #2, they don't want to end up on a list the government could get their hands on.

I don't see any logic in someone agreeing to take part in a survey on arms - and then deliberately lying.

The survey in the OP is the GSS...it is not a dedicated gun survey.

 

[Ernie S.]

Uncensored -

Increasing rights through stripping rights.

I have no idea where you get the idea of 'stripping' rights from - the basic concept of public safety is one of increasing rights and empowering people.

The right to go to school and feel safe. The right to be safe at work. The right for a child to feel safe at home.

When I hear gun fans start to address those rights, I'll certainly listen.

While murder rates in France, Spain and the UK increase, they fall in the USA. Does that mean anything? Well, yeah - it means that France, Spain, and the UK are increasing the numbers of third world populations who are not assimilated into the main culture.

It means that you haven't looked at the stats - the murder rate in the UK is at its lowest point for decades. Do go and check.

My daughter felt safe at school. Her high school had armed security.
I always felt safe at work. I was armed. My children felt safe at home. They knew where the guns were, how to get their hands on them and that they would be in HUGE trouble if they touched one without a damned good reason.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The control freaks are convinced that a responsible gun owner who has owned and used guns for years if not decades will one day sure as shit go on a shooting spree.

And yet they think people who want the ability to protect themselves and their families are crazy.