Obama's coalition is starting to crumble.

[ekrem]

and both countries are full of Muslims. They don't wanna piss them off.

It isn't only Germany and Turkey.
Countries like Poland also say NO.

Europe divided | FP Passport

 

[California Girl]

Italy presses for Nato command of Libya war

"We want Nato to take control over the operation ... We have given permission for our bases to be used and would not like to bear the political responsibility for things done by others, without our control," foreign minister Franco Frattini said during a press conference in Brussels on Monday (21 March), after a meeting with foreign ministers.

In Turin, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi also insisted it was "important that the command passes to Nato with a different coordination structure than what we have now."

EUobserver / Italy presses for Nato command of Libya war


What will you do, when Italy closes it's Airbases?
They want this whole operation to be a NATO thing.
After 3 days of NATO meetings, NATO just agreed to patrol Med-Sea with ships.

Boy they sure did line up to bomb the shit out of Libya huh? I'm sure it has nothing to do with their Oil though.

They're not 'bombing the shit out of Libya'. Do you ever bother with fact? Serious question.... you keep repeating shit as though it's fact and it, frankly, isn't.

 

[ekrem]

They're not 'bombing the shit out of Libya'. Do you ever bother with fact? Serious question.... you keep repeating shit as though it's fact and it, frankly, isn't.

And you keep repeating your same old story of the 'Great Coalition', others already posted the links, even Bush had more Allies invading Iraq.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Their Coalition of the Killing is no coalition at all. Nuff said.

 

[NoNukes]

It's not Obama's coalition. Seriously, must people be so fucking stupid?




Consider the source.

 

[NoNukes]

Even Obama, said that he put this coalition together at the urgings of Sec. State Clinton. If this is not his coalition then who's is it? Currently the US has command and control in this operation. That means that Obama, is CinC. According to Sec. Def Gates, the US wants to pass this authority on in the next few days. So far there have been no takers. How about it California Girl, do you have evidence to the contrary? By the way do you really have to swear to make your point?

I have heard nothing of this, except from you.

 

[tigerbob]

"BRUSSELS (AP) - Sharp divisions prevented NATO from adopting a plan Monday for military airstrikes against Libya, as Turkish opposition blocked the alliance from approving a strategy. And European unity was further called into question at the European Union Monday, as Germany questioned the wisdom of the operation altogether.

The UN-backed airstrikes mounted so far against Moammar Gadhafi's force by Britain, France and the United States outside of their NATO roles also drew scathing criticism from Russia, a nation with which the alliance would like close strategic cooperation.

"The Security Council resolution is flawed, it allows everything and is reminiscent of a medieval call for a crusade," said Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. "In fact, it allows intervention in a sovereign state."

A day after Turkey declined to support a military plan for the alliance to enforce a Libya no-fly zone, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said support was possible but only if NATO's operation does not turn into an occupation.

Support from the Arab League was critical to obtaining U.N. approval for international action to protect Libyan civilians. But after the international operation began, the league chief Amr Moussa was quoted as telling reporters in Cairo that it should not have included attacks on Libyan targets on the ground."

My Way News - Divisions strain NATO push for Libyan airstrikes

Well the muslim, and European communities sucked us in again haven't they. I think that the important thing to remember with muslims peace isn't the end game. Peace is only a break between wars. Let them kill each other, and only respond when their actions threaten America.

That's the real problem here.

The relevant text of UN Resolution 1973, to my way of thinking, is Paragraph 8, which reads as follows:

Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

In short, so long as there is no occupying force, the UN resolution authorizes the use of all necessary measures.

No distinction is made that I'm aware of between airborne and ground-based targets, although there is specific mention of a no fly zone that is the subject of several separate paragraphs.

So, the question becomes if the coalition forces are authorized to protect civilians who are under threat of attack, is it reasonable to think that defending those citizens might require neutralizing the infrastructure that directs those attacks.

Any military man would tell you that this is absolutely critical. Clearly however there is sufficient wiggle room for the politicians.

 

[tigerbob]

Even Obama, said that he put this coalition together at the urgings of Sec. State Clinton. If this is not his coalition then who's is it? Currently the US has command and control in this operation. That means that Obama, is CinC. According to Sec. Def Gates, the US wants to pass this authority on in the next few days. So far there have been no takers. How about it California Girl, do you have evidence to the contrary? By the way do you really have to swear to make your point?

I have heard nothing of this, except from you.

Can you post a link that supports that? I'd be interested to read that Obama said that he had put this coalition together.

 

[yota5]

Bob, you watch the news just like the rest of us do. If you haven't seen this turn on the TV. This has been on ad nauseum. So I'm not going to run around doing liberal assign busy work. Your demeanor suggests that you don't agree with that statement. If you have evidence supporting your point of view post it here. I'm always open to learn new things.

 

[MaggieMae]

Frankly, no one gives a shit what Turkey says.... and Germany is doing what Germany always does. Sitting back and letting other countries do the hard shit... if there is a need for logistical support, that's what Germany will do.

Germany has 'issues' about any military action.... something to do with WWII, I think.

Germany is the most-liked country in the world because of its humanist stance in such issues.
Turkey enjoys the standing it has in Muslim world partly for its stance in such International issues.
You can invite Qatar and build coalition with them.

OR, Turkey might want something in return, again, for its cooperation.

Turkey in 2003: Relations with US

State Minister Ali Babacan and the then Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis came to Washington at the beginning of February. They started to discuss the issue of the United States' support to Turkey to meet economic loss of the country which might stem from Iraq war in case northern front was opened in Turkey.

News stories which said that the United States offered Turkey an aid package worth 6 billion U.S. dollars to meet loss of Iraq war were published in American press. Later, this figure was also expressed by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.

The United States put pressure on Turkey to take a decision whether it would allow deployment of U.S. soldiers in Turkey as soon as possible due to the United States' plan to attack on Iraq before weather got warm because it could make difficult its operational aims.

U.S. President Bush said that they were working on an aid package very closely with Turkey and stated that he hoped an agreement which would satisfy both sides to be reached.

The "aid package" in the end was $1 billion in direct aid and a few billion more in "loans" to Turkey. Read the whole article for a rather fascinating study in war strategy, the kind that never makes the evening news.

 

[ekrem]

Germany withdraws her 2 Frigates and 2 submarines from command of NATO, that are currently patrolling off Libya's coast.

Konflikte: Deutschland steigt aus Nato-Operation aus | News | ZEIT ONLINE
Deutschland steigt aus Nato-Operation aus - Service - sueddeutsche.de

It is not clear, if they call the Subs and Frigates back to North-Sea.
But, those ships and subs won't be commanded by NATO anymore.

 

[ekrem]

The "aid package" in the end was $1 billion in direct aid and a few billion more in "loans" to Turkey. Read the whole article for a rather fascinating study in war strategy, the kind that never makes the evening news.

I've read book by Mr. Bölükbasi. He was Chief negotiator of FM in US-Turkish negotiations at that time.

ISBN 978-975-991-599-5

The Bush Administration offered 15 Billion $ to Turkey.
- 10 Billion $ as 6.25 % interest loan, re-payment within 15 years.
- 3 Billion $ military and economic aid
- 1 Billion $ petrol buy by USA for Turkish Army
- 1 Billion $ support for upgradeing or building Turkish bases to be used during Iraq operation


P.S: It was not about money why negotiations failed.

 

[ekrem]

Germany seems really pissed, if they also withdraw from NATO's patrolling mission in Med-Sea.

 

[MaggieMae]

Even Obama, said that he put this coalition together at the urgings of Sec. State Clinton. If this is not his coalition then who's is it? Currently the US has command and control in this operation. That means that Obama, is CinC. According to Sec. Def Gates, the US wants to pass this authority on in the next few days. So far there have been no takers. How about it California Girl, do you have evidence to the contrary? By the way do you really have to swear to make your point?

I have heard nothing of this, except from you.

Didn't you already post those exact same words to CG? Swearing does become necessary when people make absurd statements based on speculation or to score political points only, and there's plenty of that within this thread.

 

[ekrem]

Germany seems really pissed, if they also withdraw from NATO's patrolling mission in Med-Sea.

And this although Germany is still an US occupied country.

Constitution's article 120 regulates, that German Federal Budget pays for US's occupation of Germany:

Art. 120 GG

 

[MaggieMae]

The "aid package" in the end was $1 billion in direct aid and a few billion more in "loans" to Turkey. Read the whole article for a rather fascinating study in war strategy, the kind that never makes the evening news.

I've read book by Mr. Bölükbasi. He was Chief negotiator of FM in US-Turkish negotiations at that time.

ISBN 978-975-991-599-5

The Bush Administration offered 15 Billion $ to Turkey.
- 10 Billion $ as 6.25 % interest loan, re-payment within 15 years.
- 3 Billion $ military and economic aid
- 1 Billion $ petrol buy by USA for Turkish Army
- 1 Billion $ support for upgradeing or building Turkish bases to be used during Iraq operation


P.S: It was not about money why negotiations failed.

Turkey's parliament ultimately voted to allow flyovers, but not to use its bases for attacks. So Turkey got some cash, but not all that was offered.

 

[ekrem]

Turkey's parliament ultimately voted to allow flyovers, but not to use its bases for attacks. So Turkey got some cash, but not all that was offered.

It becomes off-topic. I will ask a rhetoric question: How much money did Turkey receive?

 

[Charles_Main]

I find it funny that Liberals are not pointing out that this so called coalition is actually Smaller than the one we took into Iraq.

lol

 

[ekrem]

I find it funny that Liberals are not pointing out that this so called coalition is actually Smaller than the one we took into Iraq.

lol

I find it funny, that Obama is still touring S.America, although it's none of my business.
This would be unimaginable in most countries of this earth given the current situation of the US Army commanding the whole thing at the moment.

 

[tigerbob]

Bob, you watch the news just like the rest of us do. If you haven't seen this turn on the TV. This has been on ad nauseum. So I'm not going to run around doing liberal assign busy work. Your demeanor suggests that you don't agree with that statement. If you have evidence supporting your point of view post it here. I'm always open to learn new things.

Well, I thought since you were asking other posters to provide links you wouldn't mind providing one yourself. No matter.

I'm delighted to see that you've decided I'm a liberal based on my observation. I'll scurry over to my spreadsheet in a second and see what that does to the 'Tigerbob is a liberal vs Tigerbob is a Conservative score', and will update on the "Welcome back Tigerbob" thread that Xotoxi was kind enough to start for me the other day. I was wondering how long it would take.

FYI, I haven't watched the TV news for well over a week. I happened to glance at a newspaper's front page this morning in Starbucks, but other than that have not read any news since Saturday. My request for you to provide a link was an honest request for more information, not a scurrilous attempt to disprove your point or waste your time. It's not surprising that you should take it that way since it's the way a lot of people operate, but its not a game I can be bothered with.

As to my view, I didn't air a view. I said that I'd be interested to read about Obama saying what you say he did, and I asked where you read it.

Lastly, I only started posting again a couple of days ago. You only joined the board earlier this year. We don't know each other. But from your post to me, I know that you say you are open to learning new things. So, maybe now you have learned something about me.