Ohio's Issue 1 Soundly Rejected By Voters In Major Win For Abortion Rights

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I think this would have been a much more relevant and interesting abstract question before the Civil War (also before women won the right to vote), when States and hence their Constitutions had much more significance. Today many state laws and state Constitutions are relatively easy to change or manipulate by ruling incumbent parties, or even by the people through referendums.

Ohio’s policy of allowing (via referendum of 50% of the vote) state constitutional amendments … was in force for over 100 years! Republicans wanted it raised to 60% now only for the specific purpose of protecting their anti-abortion laws and proposals.

Republicans in many states have in the last 50 years popularized and pushed citizen referendums to easily change state constitutions to support their political programs, for example to cap or roll back state real estate taxes. States’ constitutions vary greatly on how they allow amendments or popular referendums, as they now do on women’s rights and other issues.

On such a fundamental issue for women, our extremely unrepresentative “6 to 3” conservative U.S. Supreme Court should never have tampered with the long-standing Roe vs. Wade decision. Most Americans feel this way. But now that abortion is a state issue, I’m very glad hypocritical Republican politicians failed in their new attack on both democracy and women’s rights in Ohio.

I would say that I find it an interesting and relevant question now. As you just pointed out Republicans, and obviously Democrats, have been using these referendums to push their agendas for a while now, and "abortion is a state issue" as you said. So yes, very relevant now.

And the Supreme Court isn't supposed to be representative, or partisan at all. That was, of course, a pipe dream, anything political will end up partisan, but it wasn't designed to be representative certainly. As for Roe, I'd say, per the 10th Amendment, it should always have been a state issue and that Roe was decided incorrectly for that reason. There should be a lot more state issues than there are, unfortunately.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Chatter of theft, for sure!

But Democrats did what was right and all that matters...they PEACEFULLY transferred power to the Republicans, when they lost, whether they believed they lost fairly, or NOT!

Trump is the only President in our History, to not do that....

Did they? There was talk of denying Trump the presidency.

The Electoral College Was Meant to Stop Men Like Trump From Being President

The founders envisioned electors as people who could prevent an irresponsible demagogue from taking office.

www.theatlantic.com

The Electoral College Should Do What It Wants

This isn't hypocrisy. It's what resistance to President Trump looks like.

newrepublic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-constitution-lets-the-electoral-college-choose-the-winner-they-should-choose-clinton/2016/11/24/0f431828-b0f7-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html

Then there was how many years of the security state pretending to investigate the Russia-collusion hoax?

And I believe Gore took his issue to the Supreme Court, no?

You might say there was no riot through the Capitol, and fair enough. It's not clear to me that Trump expected or wanted those morons to break into the Capitol, perhaps the smoking gun will be revealed now that he's been indicted on the matter but I doubt it. But peaceful is quite a stretch, in my opinion. And I expect we've seen the last of anything even pretending to be a peaceful transfer of power going forward, frankly.

 

[schmidlap]

It's not an objective term, to be sure, but you know it when you see it. But it was widely claimed, at least in my opinion, and I think it's fair to say, that Bush stole both of his elections and and even more so that Trump stole the 2016 election. As for the popular vote, it's an interesting statistic but irrelevant to who actually won. So the point is that both sides whine when they lose, but it seems like Republicans might have learned it from Democrats.

From 1789 until 2021, there was a proud tradition of peaceful transfers of power in America, despite many losing candidates being, undoubtedly, very disgruntled.

In every instance, the certified votes were respected - until 2020 when a loser incited a violent assault upon outnumbered police defending democracy, contrived a scheme of fake electors to invalidate the will of the People, demonized election workers doing their jobs honestly, and pressured governors and secretaries of state to falsify the votes of their constituents.

Taking a cavalier, dismissive, cynical "Everybody does it" attitude does not work for me.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Score one for the babykillers. What's next for Democrats is to legalize infanticide up to 4 years of age. Watch.. G-d is NOT happy with Ohio.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

From 1789 until 2021, there was a proud tradition of peaceful transfers of power in America, despite many losing candidates being, undoubtedly, very disgruntled.

In every instance, the certified votes were respected - until 2020 when a loser incited a violent assault upon outnumbered police defending democracy, contrived a scheme of fake electors to invalidate the will of the People, demonized election workers doing their jobs honestly, and pressured governors and secretaries of state to falsify the votes of their constituents.

Taking a cavalier, dismissive, cynical "Everybody does it" attitude does not work for me.

I'm sorry that it doesn't work for you, and that's not really my point anyway. You're blaming one person and one party for the erosion of a principle you claim to hold in importance. However, my point was in showing that the principle of the peaceful transfer of power has been eroding in American political discourse since at least the year 2000 and it has primarily in that timeframe come from Democrats eroding it. The only example from Republicans in that timeframe comes from Biden's election over Trump. Neither McCain nor Romney made any claims of fraud or theft in their elections, and any chatter from their supporters was extremely low-level. So the point is you can dislike what Trump and his supporters did, but you can't say that they weren't simply escalating the attacks on the principle of the peaceful transfer of power that in the past two-plus decades has been cynically abused by Democrats. And if you don't blame Gore, Kerry, Clinton, and the Democratic Party for what they've done to get us here then nobody should take your criticisms of Trump seriously.

Also, a question I'd find interesting: Let's assume that the election was objectively stolen from Gore or Clinton. SHOULD their supporters have gone to the Capitol to stop the certification? It's not clear to me that the principle of the peaceful transfer of power is more important than having a president elected legitimately. I'm curious what you think for this thought experiment. Note, I'm not saying Trump's claims of a stolen election were legitimate, I'm merely proposing a thought experiment.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Score one for the babykillers. What's next for Democrats is to legalize infanticide up to 4 years of age. Watch.. G-d is NOT happy with Ohio.

I'd like to think that God isn't judging the whole of Ohio for something only a percentage of citizens are responsible for. I'd also say it's not our place to speak for God.

I'd also point out that the abortion issue wasn't technically on the ballot yesterday; I believe that's in November, so nothing on that score has been decided as yet.

 

[Care4all]

Did they? There was talk of denying Trump the presidency.

The Electoral College Was Meant to Stop Men Like Trump From Being President

The founders envisioned electors as people who could prevent an irresponsible demagogue from taking office.

www.theatlantic.com

The Electoral College Should Do What It Wants

This isn't hypocrisy. It's what resistance to President Trump looks like.

newrepublic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-constitution-lets-the-electoral-college-choose-the-winner-they-should-choose-clinton/2016/11/24/0f431828-b0f7-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html

Then there was how many years of the security state pretending to investigate the Russia-collusion hoax?

And I believe Gore took his issue to the Supreme Court, no?

You might say there was no riot through the Capitol, and fair enough. It's not clear to me that Trump expected or wanted those morons to break into the Capitol, perhaps the smoking gun will be revealed now that he's been indicted on the matter but I doubt it. But peaceful is quite a stretch, in my opinion. And I expect we've seen the last of anything even pretending to be a peaceful transfer of power going forward, frankly.

Democrats followed legal means....within Contest rules. Or are attempting changing the rules, not breaking them. The courts will determine constitutionality, and have final say.

trump took a lawless route.

I do not see how you can compare the two, at all!

Russian interference did take place in the 2016 election. Trump took their help.

what Trump team did not do, according to Mueller rpt findings at the time.... is collude/conspire with the Russians ahead of the Russian interference actions.

do you think Trump and friends are not trying to interfere with Joe Biden's presidency with 24/7 365 days a year, claiming our president is illegitimate and stole the election from him through theft, fraud, and illegal cheating? What's worse, investigating the Russians and who could be involved with them, or what Trump has been doing?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Democrats ... they PEACEFULLY transferred power to the Republicans, when they lost, whether they believed they lost fairly, or NOT!
Trump is the only President in our History, to not do that....

As for the popular vote, it's an interesting statistic but irrelevant to who actually won. So the point is that both sides whine when they lose, but it seems like Republicans might have learned it from Democrats.

Trump apologists completely forget that Donald Trump — when it served the interests of his then new Republican friends — not only denounced the whole system of the Electoral College, but called for a “Revolution!” back when it looked like Repubs might win the Popular Vote but loose the Electoral Vote. He said then the Electoral College was absurd, anti-democratic and had to be abolished!

Of course nowadays Repubs have no chance to win a popular vote, and decisively lost the Electoral vote in 2020. So what did Trump do? That p.o.s. blatantly tried to steal the 2020 election by pressuring Pence to reject & replace state-validated Electoral slates with completely fake ones picked by secret groups of Trump fanatics.

Trump, our county’s first authoritarian “wannabe King” President and coup-maker, figured he could pressure Pence to go along with this unconstitutional facade. Trump should be prosecuted where possible and denounced everywhere and by all decent and sober Americans for all his vile & divisive lies, frauds and criminal conspiracies

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Democrats followed legal means....within Contest rules. Or are attempting changing the rules, not breaking them. The courts will determine constitutionality, and have final say.

trump took a lawless route.

I do not see how you can compare the two, at all!

Russian interference did take place in the 2016 election. Trump took their help.

what Trump team did not do, according to Mueller rpt findings at the time.... is collude/conspire with the Russians ahead of the Russian interference actions.

do you think Trump and friends are not trying to interfere with Joe Biden's presidency with 24/7 365 days a year, claiming our president is illegitimate and stole the election from him through theft, fraud, and illegal cheating? What's worse, investigating the Russians and who could be involved with them, or what Trump has been doing?

If we believe in the peaceful transfer of power, what right did Gore have to take his loss to the Supreme Court to decide and go against the will of the people? That's rhetorical. The point is that we can play the semantics game back and forth to no point, but the fact remains: Democrats have repeatedly attacked the legitimacy of elections for two-plus decades in an escalatory fashion, and now Republicans have joined in on the fun. Both are to blame, and blaming one over the other for the point we've arrived at is partisan nonsense.

What help did Trump take from the Russians? Some ads on Facebook totaling a couple thousand dollars at most?

And yes, of course Trump is trying to undermine Biden's regime. He's just doing a much worse job of it than Hillary Clinton did to him. But why should I be mad at Trump if I'm not mad at Hillary? Why do you hold them to different standards?

 

[JimH52]

I just saw it on TV. All party persuasions and walks of life prove the will of the voters in a democracy.

Basically, the GOP wants to rule with their minority. That is the antithesis of democracy.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Trump apologists completely forget that Donald Trump — when it served the interests of his then new Republican friends — not only denounced the whole system of the Electoral College, but called for a “Revolution!” back when it looked like Repubs might win the Popular Vote but loose the Electoral Vote. He said then the Electoral College was absurd and anti-democratic.

Of course nowadays Repubs have no chance to win a popular vote, and decisively lost the Electoral vote in 2020. So what did Trump do? That p.o.s. blatantly tried to steal the 2020 election by pressuring Pence to reject state-validated Electoral slates with completely fake ones picked by secret groups of Trump fanatics.

Trump, our county’s first authoritarian “wannabe King” President and coup-maker, figured he could pressure Pence to go along with this unconstitutional facade. Trump should be prosecuted where possible and denounced everywhere and by all decent and sober Americans for all his vile & divisive lies, frauds and criminal conspiracies

I'm sure you think you're making a point here.

 

[JimH52]

Might not be a good idea, unless numbers have changed drastically.
View attachment 812935

https://www.ohiosos.gov/media-center/press-releases/2021/2021-10-01-a/

Ohio is beginning to look blue.

 

[Dekster]

Ballot initiatives just slow down the voting lines. Add in electing all the pointless office elections, and they are why people in Florida and California need three years to fill in the ballots.

 

[Care4all]

If we believe in the peaceful transfer of power, what right did Gore have to take his loss to the Supreme Court to decide and go against the will of the people? That's rhetorical. The point is that we can play the semantics game back and forth to no point, but the fact remains: Democrats have repeatedly attacked the legitimacy of elections for two-plus decades in an escalatory fashion, and now Republicans have joined in on the fun. Both are to blame, and blaming one over the other for the point we've arrived at is partisan nonsense.

What help did Trump take from the Russians? Some ads on Facebook totaling a couple thousand dollars at most?

And yes, of course Trump is trying to undermine Biden's regime. He's just doing a much worse job of it than Hillary Clinton did to him. But why should I be mad at Trump if I'm not mad at Hillary? Why do you hold them to different standards?

The the election contest rules give him and Bush's team, the opportunity to go to court. Republicans brought it to the Supreme court first in the 2000 election contest, if memory serves....they rejected a Florida Supreme Court ruling....

Gore conceded PEACEFULLY before the EC VOTE.

 

[JimH52]

Did they? There was talk of denying Trump the presidency.

The Electoral College Was Meant to Stop Men Like Trump From Being President

The founders envisioned electors as people who could prevent an irresponsible demagogue from taking office.

www.theatlantic.com

The Electoral College Should Do What It Wants

This isn't hypocrisy. It's what resistance to President Trump looks like.

newrepublic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-constitution-lets-the-electoral-college-choose-the-winner-they-should-choose-clinton/2016/11/24/0f431828-b0f7-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html

Then there was how many years of the security state pretending to investigate the Russia-collusion hoax?

And I believe Gore took his issue to the Supreme Court, no?

You might say there was no riot through the Capitol, and fair enough. It's not clear to me that Trump expected or wanted those morons to break into the Capitol, perhaps the smoking gun will be revealed now that he's been indicted on the matter but I doubt it. But peaceful is quite a stretch, in my opinion. And I expect we've seen the last of anything even pretending to be a peaceful transfer of power going forward, frankly.

Democrats will gladly eliminate the EC. The popular vote will be the deciding factor and the GOP will die a quick, painful death.

 

[JimH52]

When was the last presidential election that Democrats lost that wasn't widely claimed to be stolen? Just out of curiosity.

Gore conceded. He did not conspire to steal the election from Bush. Then we attacked Iraq for no reason and spent Billions and gave the lives of many of our soldiers.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The the election contest rules give him and Bush's team, the opportunity to go to court. Republicans brought it to the Supreme court first in the 2000 election contest, if memory serves....they rejected a Florida Supreme Court ruling....

Gore conceded PEACEFULLY before the EC VOTE.

Why didn't Gore peacefully concede the election prior to it going to court? My point is that it's been an escalating series of attacks on this principle people keep claiming to take so seriously but then excuse their team for eroding that principle. Gore's attack was less than Clinton's, I'd say Kerry's was less than Gore's, and Clinton's and Trump's were essentially identical aside from the riot that I've yet to see any proof that Trump orchestrated or wanted. The next one will likely be worse than them regardless of Democrat or Republican.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Democrats will gladly eliminate the EC. The popular vote will be the deciding factor and the GOP will die a quick, painful death.

I wish you the worst of luck in that endeavor.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Gore conceded. He did not conspire to steal the election from Bush. Then we attacked Iraq for no reason and spent Billions and gave the lives of many of our soldiers.

Gore conceded after trying to get the Supreme Court to steal it for him.

We can play this game all day.

 

[JimH52]

The the election contest rules give him and Bush's team, the opportunity to go to court. Republicans brought it to the Supreme court first in the 2000 election contest, if memory serves....they rejected a Florida Supreme Court ruling....

Gore conceded PEACEFULLY before the EC VOTE.

repubs keep trying to compare trump's attempt to steal the election from Biden with Gore's legal efforts where he conceded and allowed a peaceful transition. It is a false comparison.