one nation, under god

[Ravi]

He also said he was a Christian, a sect of one. He has to be read in the context of his writings and of the Age of Enlightenment.

Epicureanism and Christianity are not compatible since Epicureans believe that the soul dies with the body.

Damn, and here I thought epicurians just liked good food.

 

[Againsheila]

So the non-believer should be taught to show respect for the believers, but the believers not taught to show respect for the non-believer.


Somehow that post of yours didn't surprise me.

And how is it showing any disrespect to the non-believer? They can stand there and laugh to themselves for all I would care.

Let me explain with an example. As the current Commander of my local American Legion Post i attend a lot of functions, many times i attend a funeral service in a catholic church. I do not participate in many of their rituals, because it is not my belief. If they get on their knees I sit quietly, when they get in line for their communion or whatever they call it I remain in my place. But I show their religion respect.

Common courtesy. It really does go a long way.

Now should they change their service because someone who believes differently is there?

On Saturday evening i will be hosting an Awards banquet for some of the local HS kids. (In my capacity as Commander) It is not a religious event, and there will be no clergy there. However, we will post the flags and before diner I will ask the Post Chaplain to say grace. I bet that no matter what the religion of those kids might be, they and their parents will stand up for the prayer.

Respect, it really is as simple as that.............

This thread isn't really about standing or sitting for the pledge but I'm curious to know if you consider it respectful to sit while others kneel (in chruch) why isn't it respectful to sit while others stand (in school)?

I'm not eloquent enough to put it into words, but there is a big difference between not kneeling and not standing.

 

[SFC Ollie]

So the non-believer should be taught to show respect for the believers, but the believers not taught to show respect for the non-believer.


Somehow that post of yours didn't surprise me.

And how is it showing any disrespect to the non-believer? They can stand there and laugh to themselves for all I would care.

Let me explain with an example. As the current Commander of my local American Legion Post i attend a lot of functions, many times i attend a funeral service in a catholic church. I do not participate in many of their rituals, because it is not my belief. If they get on their knees I sit quietly, when they get in line for their communion or whatever they call it I remain in my place. But I show their religion respect.

Common courtesy. It really does go a long way.

Now should they change their service because someone who believes differently is there?

On Saturday evening i will be hosting an Awards banquet for some of the local HS kids. (In my capacity as Commander) It is not a religious event, and there will be no clergy there. However, we will post the flags and before diner I will ask the Post Chaplain to say grace. I bet that no matter what the religion of those kids might be, they and their parents will stand up for the prayer.

Respect, it really is as simple as that.............

This thread isn't really about standing or sitting for the pledge but I'm curious to know if you consider it respectful to sit while others kneel (in chruch) why isn't it respectful to sit while others stand (in school)?

Ever been to a catholic service? They are smart enough to know that everyone cannot kneel. So they allow the alternative of sitting..... Someone not of their faith at the service would be expected to sit at these times.....

 

[Ravi]

And how is it showing any disrespect to the non-believer? They can stand there and laugh to themselves for all I would care.

Let me explain with an example. As the current Commander of my local American Legion Post i attend a lot of functions, many times i attend a funeral service in a catholic church. I do not participate in many of their rituals, because it is not my belief. If they get on their knees I sit quietly, when they get in line for their communion or whatever they call it I remain in my place. But I show their religion respect.

Common courtesy. It really does go a long way.

Now should they change their service because someone who believes differently is there?

On Saturday evening i will be hosting an Awards banquet for some of the local HS kids. (In my capacity as Commander) It is not a religious event, and there will be no clergy there. However, we will post the flags and before diner I will ask the Post Chaplain to say grace. I bet that no matter what the religion of those kids might be, they and their parents will stand up for the prayer.

Respect, it really is as simple as that.............

This thread isn't really about standing or sitting for the pledge but I'm curious to know if you consider it respectful to sit while others kneel (in chruch) why isn't it respectful to sit while others stand (in school)?

Ever been to a catholic service? They are smart enough to know that everyone cannot kneel. So they allow the alternative of sitting..... Someone not of their faith at the service would be expected to sit at these times.....

Yeah, I've been to thousands of them. And you can always tell when someone isn't kneeling because they can't or they won't.

But you didn't answer my question.

 

[Againsheila]

This thread isn't really about standing or sitting for the pledge but I'm curious to know if you consider it respectful to sit while others kneel (in chruch) why isn't it respectful to sit while others stand (in school)?

Ever been to a catholic service? They are smart enough to know that everyone cannot kneel. So they allow the alternative of sitting..... Someone not of their faith at the service would be expected to sit at these times.....

Yeah, I've been to thousands of them. And you can always tell when someone isn't kneeling because they can't or they won't.

But you didn't answer my question.

Okay, let me see if I can try, you kneel to your overlord, someone of higher rank than you...we did away with that in America. You stand out of respect for someone. IE, you stand when the President or the Judge enters the room. If you sit, then you are disrespecting them.

Sitting during the pledge is also disrespect.

not kneeling in church is a choice not to kneel and has nothing to do with respecting that religion or not, it is simply not participating in their ritual. You have already shown respect for their religion by attending their services.

I btw, have been to Catholic services and I've knelt, but then I've knelt in the Methodist church too. It's the way I was brought up.

 

[Againsheila]

Epicureanism and Christianity are not compatible since Epicureans believe that the soul dies with the body.

You are looking for consistency in TJ's writings?

You tell me if it's possible to be Christian if a person doesn't accept that the soul lives on after the body dies? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in modern Christian theology, after physical death the soul either goes to heaven as an eternal reward (based on the confession of a sin nature and accepting Jesus as one's personal savior) or to hell for eternal damnation.

TJ may have been an idealist in his political views, but he was a intellectual realist and a pragmatist when it came to examining the way the natural world worked. Epicureanism appealed to that nature, and I don't believe his thinking was in keeping with the Christian religion. Additionally, I don't think Christians COULD consider TJ to be a Christian considering the beliefs he held. That doesn't mean he didn't believe in a God (or gods), but that alone wouldn't make him a Christian.

Depends on how you interpret the Bible. Some believe you are buried, and only on Jesus's return will you be resurrected to live in heaven on earth.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no what if's.........

Now, if a child refuses to stand for the pledge then I would say that the teacher has a responsibility to work with the child and the childs parents to teach that child the respect for others in the room.

They shouldn't be forced to say or even learn the pledge, but when it is being said they should at least learn the respect to stand quietly.

I'm sure some of you have a problem with that to. Too bad for you.

fuck you....

Such a teacher in a public school must be dismissed if he or she tries to unconstitutionally force passive indoctrination into any student setting.

Separation of church and state means that neither agency can use state employees to further such an agenda.

 

[JoeB131]

At any given time, there are countless people who are trying to get "under God" removed from the pledge. My mother is one of those people.

I personally don't give a shit.

The ironic thing was that the pledge didn't originally contain "under God", and it was written by a socialist minister.

They also wanted a straight arm salute to be done when saying it, but that didn't seem like such a keen idea by the 1930's.

I think it should be taken out.

 

[Dr.Drock]

And how is it showing any disrespect to the non-believer? They can stand there and laugh to themselves for all I would care.

Let me explain with an example. As the current Commander of my local American Legion Post i attend a lot of functions, many times i attend a funeral service in a catholic church. I do not participate in many of their rituals, because it is not my belief. If they get on their knees I sit quietly, when they get in line for their communion or whatever they call it I remain in my place. But I show their religion respect.

Common courtesy. It really does go a long way.

Now should they change their service because someone who believes differently is there?

On Saturday evening i will be hosting an Awards banquet for some of the local HS kids. (In my capacity as Commander) It is not a religious event, and there will be no clergy there. However, we will post the flags and before diner I will ask the Post Chaplain to say grace. I bet that no matter what the religion of those kids might be, they and their parents will stand up for the prayer.

Respect, it really is as simple as that.............

So standing and laughing is showing respect? I think rather than be divisive we should make this a non-issue and either not say it at all or take god out.

Church and public schools shouldn't be held to the same standard. Someone shouldn't have to go through a ritual with religious inclinations cuz gov't says so.

When i'm asked to stand for prayer or bow my head at a funeral or get together or what have you I do it and just don't pray. But for those who don't want their child subjected to being singled out in school because of their religious views, I can totally understand.

It's the same damned thing in school the kid can simply stand there, chances are the other students would never know unless the kid made an issue of it.....

And do try to understand I said laugh to themselves. No one else would hear it....

Really, the stupidity level on this board is really growing recently.......

And if the kid doesn't want to stand for his beliefs, he's being singled out because of a divisive pledge.

Alright, i gotcha.

The last line is essentially calling me stupid, because i have a different view than you. How very grown up of you.

 

[SFC Ollie]

There is no what if's.........

Now, if a child refuses to stand for the pledge then I would say that the teacher has a responsibility to work with the child and the childs parents to teach that child the respect for others in the room.

They shouldn't be forced to say or even learn the pledge, but when it is being said they should at least learn the respect to stand quietly.

I'm sure some of you have a problem with that to. Too bad for you.

fuck you....

I don't think so.

 

[SFC Ollie]

There is no what if's.........

Now, if a child refuses to stand for the pledge then I would say that the teacher has a responsibility to work with the child and the childs parents to teach that child the respect for others in the room.

They shouldn't be forced to say or even learn the pledge, but when it is being said they should at least learn the respect to stand quietly.

I'm sure some of you have a problem with that to. Too bad for you.

fuck you....

Such a teacher in a public school must be dismissed if he or she tries to unconstitutionally force passive indoctrination into any student setting.

Separation of church and state means that neither agency can use state employees to further such an agenda.

Teaching respect for others is not indoctrination Jake. Nor did I say forced anything. What is wrong with showing enough respect to other people in the room to stand quietly while they say the pledge?

Anyone who can't do at least that does not deserve the name American.........

 

[del]

fuck you....

Such a teacher in a public school must be dismissed if he or she tries to unconstitutionally force passive indoctrination into any student setting.

Separation of church and state means that neither agency can use state employees to further such an agenda.

Teaching respect for others is not indoctrination Jake. Nor did I say forced anything. What is wrong with showing enough respect to other people in the room to stand quietly while they say the pledge?

Anyone who can't do at least that does not deserve the name American.........

really?

 

[Againsheila]

So standing and laughing is showing respect? I think rather than be divisive we should make this a non-issue and either not say it at all or take god out.

Church and public schools shouldn't be held to the same standard. Someone shouldn't have to go through a ritual with religious inclinations cuz gov't says so.

When i'm asked to stand for prayer or bow my head at a funeral or get together or what have you I do it and just don't pray. But for those who don't want their child subjected to being singled out in school because of their religious views, I can totally understand.

It's the same damned thing in school the kid can simply stand there, chances are the other students would never know unless the kid made an issue of it.....

And do try to understand I said laugh to themselves. No one else would hear it....

Really, the stupidity level on this board is really growing recently.......

And if the kid doesn't want to stand for his beliefs, he's being singled out because of a divisive pledge.

Alright, i gotcha.

The last line is essentially calling me stupid, because i have a different view than you. How very grown up of you.

Again, I ask, what happens if one of our representatives visits a foreign country and refuses to stand for their pledge or anthym?

 

[JakeStarkey]

fuck you....

Such a teacher in a public school must be dismissed if he or she tries to unconstitutionally force passive indoctrination into any student setting.

Separation of church and state means that neither agency can use state employees to further such an agenda.

Teaching respect for others is not indoctrination Jake. Nor did I say forced anything. What is wrong with showing enough respect to other people in the room to stand quietly while they say the pledge?

Anyone who can't do at least that does not deserve the name American.........

Careful on who is and is not American. I served just like you, I move poorly each day because of my service just like you, I get my pension and my VA medical care just like you. If you believe your way is the only way of being American, I suggest, quietly yet firmly, better think again.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It's the same damned thing in school the kid can simply stand there, chances are the other students would never know unless the kid made an issue of it.....

And do try to understand I said laugh to themselves. No one else would hear it....

Really, the stupidity level on this board is really growing recently.......

And if the kid doesn't want to stand for his beliefs, he's being singled out because of a divisive pledge.

Alright, i gotcha.

The last line is essentially calling me stupid, because i have a different view than you. How very grown up of you.

Again, I ask, what happens if one of our representatives visits a foreign country and refuses to stand for their pledge or anthym?

That is not a matter for American decision of how to do things. We stand up for that. But when we mix church and state, then the ball game and its rules are quite different.

 

[Dr.Drock]

It's the same damned thing in school the kid can simply stand there, chances are the other students would never know unless the kid made an issue of it.....

And do try to understand I said laugh to themselves. No one else would hear it....

Really, the stupidity level on this board is really growing recently.......

And if the kid doesn't want to stand for his beliefs, he's being singled out because of a divisive pledge.

Alright, i gotcha.

The last line is essentially calling me stupid, because i have a different view than you. How very grown up of you.

Again, I ask, what happens if one of our representatives visits a foreign country and refuses to stand for their pledge or anthym?

Couldn't care less, apples and oranges.

If a kid doesn't believe in god, he shouldn't be shunned by being divided and pointed out by everyone else in the classroom.

Pre-1954 this wasn't a problem, shouldn't be now.

 

[Mustang]

You are looking for consistency in TJ's writings?

You tell me if it's possible to be Christian if a person doesn't accept that the soul lives on after the body dies? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in modern Christian theology, after physical death the soul either goes to heaven as an eternal reward (based on the confession of a sin nature and accepting Jesus as one's personal savior) or to hell for eternal damnation.

TJ may have been an idealist in his political views, but he was a intellectual realist and a pragmatist when it came to examining the way the natural world worked. Epicureanism appealed to that nature, and I don't believe his thinking was in keeping with the Christian religion. Additionally, I don't think Christians COULD consider TJ to be a Christian considering the beliefs he held. That doesn't mean he didn't believe in a God (or gods), but that alone wouldn't make him a Christian.

Depends on how you interpret the Bible. Some believe you are buried, and only on Jesus's return will you be resurrected to live in heaven on earth.

Oh yeah, the 'interpreters' of the Bible...

Didn't they manage to 'interpret' the concept of the rapture just in the last couple of centuries?

Hisorically, it seems as if new 'interpretations' of the Bible inevitably lead to new denominations as a protest over previous orthodoxy. After all, where to you think the term PROTESTant came from?

 

[SFC Ollie]

It's the same damned thing in school the kid can simply stand there, chances are the other students would never know unless the kid made an issue of it.....

And do try to understand I said laugh to themselves. No one else would hear it....

Really, the stupidity level on this board is really growing recently.......

And if the kid doesn't want to stand for his beliefs, he's being singled out because of a divisive pledge.

Alright, i gotcha.

The last line is essentially calling me stupid, because i have a different view than you. How very grown up of you.

Again, I ask, what happens if one of our representatives visits a foreign country and refuses to stand for their pledge or anthym?

They shouldn't be representing us.............. It's called respect......

 

[SFC Ollie]

Such a teacher in a public school must be dismissed if he or she tries to unconstitutionally force passive indoctrination into any student setting.

Separation of church and state means that neither agency can use state employees to further such an agenda.

Teaching respect for others is not indoctrination Jake. Nor did I say forced anything. What is wrong with showing enough respect to other people in the room to stand quietly while they say the pledge?

Anyone who can't do at least that does not deserve the name American.........

Careful on who is and is not American. I served just like you, I move poorly each day because of my service just like you, I get my pension and my VA medical care just like you. If you believe your way is the only way of being American, I suggest, quietly yet firmly, better think again.

Address the fucking issue Jake, do you mean that you think someone should sit on their ass during the pledge of allegiance? Do you believe it is too much to ask that at a minimum they stand quietly while others recite it? Come on Jake show your socialist ass.....

 

[SFC Ollie]

fuck you....

I don't think so.

yeah i think so. You want to force people to stand and submit to your opinion or now they are not americans.

Irony

Hey asshole, all I ask for is respect. Isn't that something that we are supposed to teach our children? Or is that something you don't believe in too?