Pilgrims were illegal immigrants

[miami_thomas]

You have to love the liberal view of the world. It gives you an insight into just how far in fantasy land they really live. First when the pilgrims arrived to America there was no country and there were no laws. Therefore, it is impossible to even claims that the pilgrims came here illegally because to be illegal you actually have to have a law that is being broken. But of course facts are not needed when you are talking fantasy.

Then there is the fantastical view of the Indians themselves. What were the Indians? They were nomads and those nomads are no different than any other nomadic barbaric tribes of the past. The fact is all man arose from nomadic tribes. But to sit here and pretend that barbaric nomadic tribes are innocent little people that were of no danger is to totally ignore history. Barbaric tribes are the very reason civilizations began to rise by tribes joining together to protect their farms, livestock, and women from those barbaric tribes. The birth from nomadic tribes to civilization was an evolution and it was a bloody one.

The evolution however had to happen to be where we are today. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about the barbarians of Europe, Vikings, pirates, or the Mongolians. Barbaric tribes murdered and pillaged and the Indians were no different. They were threats to civilized society and as such were battled and killed by civilizations armies sent to protect their citizens. Indians are just be romanticized by the liberals to try and revise history to change America into an evil nation that needs to be changed into the liberals form of government.

Don’t get me wrong there were some evil things this nation did in its past but what nation does not have blood on its hands that it needs not be ashamed of? All nations at one time or another in their history had blood on its hands but it is easier to look back and judge after the fact than it is to be in the moment that the decisions are made. There was a lot of bad things done back then and not just by the United States but by the Indians too.

And I love seeing the romantic views and the belief that the world would be better being back in those nomadic tribe days. The belief that it was some type of paradise made up in the movies. The truth is it was violent with rape, theft, and murder running rampant especially between opposing tribes and even within the tribes themselves. To pretend that those days are something to aspire to is quite delusional indeed. But in order to get people to feel sorry for a people first you must paint them as truly wonderful and innocent.

Of course Liberals have to resort to being revisionist in order to get people to change. I mean really all history points to are liberal ideas that always ends in death to the masses. America is the greatest nation on the planet and our history is what made us what we are today. To change what we are and go to what liberals want us to be now is to destroy everything this nation has built. That is exactly why our history is being revised by the liberals. How do you convince to change a wonderful nation into a disaster of an idea without first convincing people what we are now and were was awful and we need to change to something wonderful.

 

[Freewill]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

If they really believe such are they going back to Europe or wherever?

No, I think not, they are just spreading division.

 

[konradv]

You're a sad case. The contortions you have to do to take all the bad things in history and blame them on liberals is unbelievable. Isn't that what you're saying the liberals are doing? "Death to the masses" occur for all sorts of reasons. To blame them on one group is real revisionist history.

 

[konradv]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

 

[Freewill]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

It wasn't their land.

What tribe was the first? By your logic the first tribe would own all of North and South America the rest are illegals.

But that is not how countries were formed. Today the lines are drawn and pretty much set in stone, back then the strong survived. I am sure Native Americans understand that.

 

[konradv]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

It wasn't their land.

What tribe was the first? By your logic the first tribe would own all of North and South America the rest are illegals.

But that is not how countries were formed. Today the lines are drawn and pretty much set in stone, back then the strong survived. I am sure Native Americans understand that.

That's not my logic. That's you creating a strawman. That first tribe was also native American. You made no distinction in your initial statement, so you've moved the goalposts. If you're going to talk logic, at least be aware of the basics.

 

[miami_thomas]

You're a sad case. The contortions you have to do to take all the bad things in history and blame them on liberals is unbelievable. Isn't that what you're saying the liberals are doing? "Death to the masses" occur for all sorts of reasons. To blame them on one group is real revisionist history.

I'm saying that when all the power is given to government it never has a good ending. Power will always lead to corruption and to believe as a liberal believes that somehow giving total power to government will make life better is truly blind of the facts proven by history. Power always corrupt and what has made America successful is that, that power has always been in check. But you liberals want to end that and follow every other nation that has always tried to catch up with us.

 

[miami_thomas]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

In that case the first person ever owns the entire earth and we are all illegal and should get on a space ship and leave.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Go talk to the climate change alarmists and they will tell you all humans are illegal to Earth.

Other favorites:

- Jesus would approve of everything Democrats are proposing
- Fat swashbuckling white men wandered into Africa, rounded up men and women and took them as slaves.

While Jesus mandates redistribution of wealth among his followers, he says nothing about the Government doing it for him. Regarding African slaves, they were rounded up and sold by elite blacks in Africa and sold to whites who eventually saw the immorality of slavery and ceased the practice. However, black slave trade is alive and well in Africa today as it was in the 1700s. Now, who should pay the reparations?

 

[Saigon]

Fat swashbuckling white men wandered into Africa, rounded up men and women and took them as slaves.

Other than the fact the fat usually remained on their ships and bought the slaves off middlemen - you're right.

, black slave trade is alive and well in Africa today as it was in the 1700s

Really? Where?

Please give specific examples, and ideally with the numbers being shipped.

 

[Saigon]

Miami -

The problem here is that you have misunderstood what some liberals have said. Or, at lleast, you are taking it FAR too literally.

Of course no nation state existed in America in 1700, so you are right that no laws were broken.

BUT - we now consider that the first people or race to live in an area own the land. There is no question that American Indians owned much of what is now the USA, and neither is there any question that this land was seized by violent conquest.

In 2013, most people would consider that conquest illegal.

I suggest you forget the whole left/right nonsense, and try and look at history a little more objectively.

 

[sarahgop]

indians lost their culture because they didnt secure the border.

 

[ScienceRocks]

indians lost because they couldn't fight off the culture/people that invaded. They couldn't unify and certainly couldn't match european warcraft. Guns and armies against scattered tribes throughout north America isn't very equal.

This is how this world works.

 

[miami_thomas]

Miami -

The problem here is that you have misunderstood what some liberals have said. Or, at lleast, you are taking it FAR too literally.

Of course no nation state existed in America in 1700, so you are right that no laws were broken.

BUT - we now consider that the first people or race to live in an area own the land. There is no question that American Indians owned much of what is now the USA, and neither is there any question that this land was seized by violent conquest.

In 2013, most people would consider that conquest illegal.

I suggest you forget the whole left/right nonsense, and try and look at history a little more objectively.

What land wasn’t seized by violent quests? Nearly every inch of this planet has been fought over at some point in time. Second they were nomads that wandered so to say that every inch of the America’s belonged to them just because they were somewhere in the continent is just plain dumb. The pilgrims did not jump of the ship like marines and invade the shore lines. They landed peacefully as a people looking to make a home. Yes it would be illegal today because now there are laws and borders of nations. Back then there were no laws and no borders. That is what makes it illegal is that there are laws and borders.

 

[NoNukes]

The native Americans were illegal aliens if we follow liberal logic.

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

In that case the first person ever owns the entire earth and we are all illegal and should get on a space ship and leave.

This is so stupid that I cannot continue to read this thread.

 

[Katzndogz]

The point of the pilgrims were illegal alien concept is that it removes the legitimacy of the US to exist and the right of white people to live here. Now you have no country to be a citizen of. You are no more a citizen of the United States than the mexican who just slithered across the border. Indians didn't lose their culture because they couldn't secure the border. There was no border. There was no country. There were no states. There were tribal lands which the various tribes fought over continually. There was no peace, just endless wars. Sort of like the direction we are moving in now, with the citizens of the US dividing up into individual tribes at war with the surrounding tribes. Only today we call them gangs and special interest groups.

 

[NoNukes]

Miami -

The problem here is that you have misunderstood what some liberals have said. Or, at lleast, you are taking it FAR too literally.

Of course no nation state existed in America in 1700, so you are right that no laws were broken.

BUT - we now consider that the first people or race to live in an area own the land. There is no question that American Indians owned much of what is now the USA, and neither is there any question that this land was seized by violent conquest.

In 2013, most people would consider that conquest illegal.

I suggest you forget the whole left/right nonsense, and try and look at history a little more objectively.

The Indians had nations and laws.

 

[Saigon]

Miami -

A lot of land has been settled by conquest, you are right, but if we look at a map of Europe in around 1700 (the time nation states came to first be considered as an idea) we can see that a lot of peoples had largely mapped out the land they still live in.

As just one example - Italy did not become a country until something like 1860, but the various Italian groups (Piedmont, Lombard, Genoa) were living where they still live today. No land was taken by conquest - they just joined forces.

I agree that American Indians did not occupy ALL of what is now USA - but they did occupy large swathes of it, and their ownership of that land is, to my mind, abundantly clear. I am sure maps from that era would be able to define an area that the Sioux owned, for instance, without it being too imaginary.

The pilgrims landed peacefully, granted - but they did not move west in peace. They committed what comes very close to genocide in some cases. Americans need to accept and respect that.

 

[miami_thomas]

How so? It was a land without people when they first arrived.

In that case the first person ever owns the entire earth and we are all illegal and should get on a space ship and leave.

This is so stupid that I cannot continue to read this thread.

And I’ll bet you think that was an intelligent response.

 

[Katzndogz]

Indians had no concept of land ownership at all. It is part of the Indian belief system. All land belongs to the Great Spirit and the Gods who let mankind use it. The only thing they protected was hunting and women. One of the reasons that Indians did not bind together to fight off the invaders was that the invaders had as much right to use the land as any of the Indians! It was not until the Europeans encroached on hunting grounds that the Indians even objected. Since the white men weren't raiding the tribes for women (like the Indian tribes did) they were unobjectionable.