Pres. memo--execute Americans without due process

[Quantum Windbag]

While Sallow and I come to different conclusions about the propriety of the program/policy etc., we clearly agree that it should NOT matter which President is in office. If you were ok with it while W was the President, then you should not oppose it now just because Pres. Obama is in office. And if you hate it now that Pres. Obama in at the helm, then you probably should have hated it when W was the CiC.

And those like Shallow and Jakematters who hated it when Dubya was in office, but support it completely now that their little tin god is our ruler?

Furthermore, while I have opposed the Patriot act from day one, actually since the day Biden proposed it under Clinton, I will again remind you that Bush never killed American citizens, nor did he order the killing of American. While Jakematters and the rest of the ThinkProgress crowd called waterboarding a "war crime," they are perfectly okay with ordered assassinations.

Show where I hated drone strikes under Bush. I have always supported technology in lieu of troop lives and limbs.

I oppose torture, yes, as any civilized person does.

Did you support enhance interrogation?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Dillinger was not served process at all. He was shot in the back of the head without warning.

Uncensored, what is with your communist-like propaganda? Are you a Marxist?

Police used to beat the crap out of people who they caught jaywalking back when Dillinger was alive. Most people are pretty happy we don't do that anymore.

 

[Staidhup]

Due process my ass, so some freak is out in the bush, running around plotting to kill Americans, supporting a terrorist organization, and happens to be in the right place at the wrong time. Boom fry his ass.

 

[Trajan]

Did I say I disagree?

You either disagreed or you're engaging in classic trolling by making off topic inflammatory posts without actually taking a position on the issue at hand.

Which is it?

my position is clear, you're a horse-face hypocrite, trying to be all smooth and logical with the "constitutional processes" and all get dafugoutta here wit dat smack, you're not fooling anyone homey.....


you and your ilk ( yes your Ilk, you have one) lack of outrage is so completely bogus, hey, wheres the Moral relativism train these days? Jumped the track old bean?

you know, the 'mortal relativism' that likens a Palestinian 'freedom fighter' blowing up a pizzeria as equal to an Israeli pilot taking out a rocket launcher purposefully posted next to a school.




Heres one closer to your heart- Gitmo being a crime against humanity , an illegal operation holding illegal prisoners, possible non combatants with no due process availed of or to them no matter their citizenship, that should be released to whence they came, shielded from Military tribunals which are just 'star chambers' anyway............

but, blowing up American citizens ?no court of last resort, no recourse? Just the Prezs say so? Sheeet aint no thang...right?


Tell you what, you can be excused if you’ve (a) missed Mr. Obama’s much-heralded due process element in all of this and (b) have a hard time reconciling Mr. Obama’s presidents-should-not-have-blanket-authority-to-do-whatever-they-wish-lectures (see the National Archives speech for more) with his Justice Department’s expansive executive powers memo..... I posted the link, go read it.......

hackasaurus's.........I thought the Hagel BS was over the top, this? Wow....

 

[NYcarbineer]

No it was a hypothetical.

No, it's not hypothetical. You are attempting to cover for the crime of your god with a claim that "BOOOOSHHHH did it too."

So name these human shields that were killed during the Iraq invasion?

Sean Penn (I sure hope so) Ben Afflick? Matt Damon?

If you can't name any, why not?

You're asserting that every American anywhere in the world is innocent and entitled to due process and cannot be targeted for bombardment.

I alone will determine what I assert. You of the Khmer Rouge do not assign my views to me.

IF an American is in a combat zone and is collateral damage during a military operation, shit happens.

But that is FAR different than Obama assuming the role of absolute dictator and order the killing of American citizens without warrant, charge, judicial review, arrest, or any of those other inconveniences that civilized countries use.

Obama is a thug and a criminal. He has more in common with Pol Pot and Idi Amin than he does with Jefferson, Washington, or Adams.

That would mean that any American who placed himself in a place targeted for bombardment would make that bombardment an illegal, unconstutional violation of that American's rights.

Is that not your position? If not, why not?

My positions are clear and based on the United States Constitution, just as yours are based on ending said Constitution.

Why are you so scared of stating your actual positions?

 

[NYcarbineer]

You either disagreed or you're engaging in classic trolling by making off topic inflammatory posts without actually taking a position on the issue at hand.

Which is it?

my position is clear, you're a horse-face hypocrite, trying to be all smooth and logical with the "constitutional processes" and all get dafugoutta here wit dat smack, you're not fooling anyone homey.....


you and your ilk ( yes your Ilk, you have one) lack of outrage is so completely bogus, hey, wheres the Moral relativism train these days? Jumped the track old bean?

you know, the 'mortal relativism' that likens a Palestinian 'freedom fighter' blowing up a pizzeria as equal to an Israeli pilot taking out a rocket launcher purposefully posted next to a school.




Heres one closer to your heart- Gitmo being a crime against humanity , an illegal operation holding illegal prisoners, possible non combatants with no due process availed of or to them no matter their citizenship, that should be released to whence they came, shielded from Military tribunals which are just 'star chambers' anyway............

but, blowing up American citizens ?no court of last resort, no recourse? Just the Prezs say so? Sheeet aint no thang...right?


Tell you what, you can be excused if you’ve (a) missed Mr. Obama’s much-heralded due process element in all of this and (b) have a hard time reconciling Mr. Obama’s presidents-should-not-have-blanket-authority-to-do-whatever-they-wish-lectures (see the National Archives speech for more) with his Justice Department’s expansive executive powers memo..... I postedthe link, go read it.......

hackasaurus's.........I thought the Hagel BS was over the top, this? Wow....

You've really morphed into a spittle stained lunatic.

My sympathies. If you want to debate a point, state your position like an adult.

 

[Trajan]

Did I say I disagree?






...an AQ affiliate overran a Consulate and killed an ambassador , a 33 year first, BUT wait, there was no AQ, no terrorism, it was a video....

NO NO NO wait. I got bin laden though, AQ is decimated!!!!!




so we ARE still fighting AQ and the war on terror? which fucking is it?


Never mind, doesn't matter.

you're a hypocritical Bozo of massive proportions...massive.... I mean seriously, have you no shame? At all?

I've supported the targeting killing of Al Qaeda as a military strategy ever since 9/11.

That's pretty much the entire time. What's hypocritical about supporting it now?

you're comprehension skills are still questionable to be kind, read the last 3 lines again, there isn't SUPPOSED to BE an AQ....remember?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Why are you so scared of stating your actual positions?

???

It doesn't get much more clear than;

IF an American is in a combat zone and is collateral damage during a military operation, shit happens.

But that is FAR different than Obama assuming the role of absolute dictator and order the killing of American citizens without warrant, charge, judicial review, arrest, or any of those other inconveniences that civilized countries use.

Obama is a thug and a criminal. He has more in common with Pol Pot and Idi Amin than he does with Jefferson, Washington, or Adams.

What do you not grasp?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

ANNOUNCEMENT: Red Herring being served at the Sushi Bar

read what it is you pretend to know you are speaking about:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

So then, you CAN'T show any hits on Americans ordered by Bush...

Got it.

read what it is you pretend to know you are speaking about:


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Trajan and NYC...learn how to use QUOTES!!!!


JEsus, you two have been here for ages...step up your game here. Set an example.


geesh

 

[Trajan]

my position is clear, you're a horse-face hypocrite, trying to be all smooth and logical with the "constitutional processes" and all get dafugoutta here wit dat smack, you're not fooling anyone homey.....


you and your ilk ( yes your Ilk, you have one) lack of outrage is so completely bogus, hey, wheres the Moral relativism train these days? Jumped the track old bean?

you know, the 'mortal relativism' that likens a Palestinian 'freedom fighter' blowing up a pizzeria as equal to an Israeli pilot taking out a rocket launcher purposefully posted next to a school.




Heres one closer to your heart- Gitmo being a crime against humanity , an illegal operation holding illegal prisoners, possible non combatants with no due process availed of or to them no matter their citizenship, that should be released to whence they came, shielded from Military tribunals which are just 'star chambers' anyway............

but, blowing up American citizens ?no court of last resort, no recourse? Just the Prezs say so? Sheeet aint no thang...right?


Tell you what, you can be excused if you’ve (a) missed Mr. Obama’s much-heralded due process element in all of this and (b) have a hard time reconciling Mr. Obama’s presidents-should-not-have-blanket-authority-to-do-whatever-they-wish-lectures (see the National Archives speech for more) with his Justice Department’s expansive executive powers memo..... I posted the link, go read it.......

hackasaurus's.........I thought the Hagel BS was over the top, this? Wow....

You've really morphed into a spittle stained lunatic.

My sympathies. If you want to debate a point, state your position like an adult.

Oh the Humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!


what a riot, I been reading/subjected to your moronic ramblings for almost 3 years, take your "Mr. Sweet Reasonableness" game and run it on someone who doesn't know you and hasn't read enough of your BS.

What I said is perfectly clear, you just don't like being called on your hypocrisy, especially in a case where you have no cover, at all.

and, now you're the voice of reason? No, you're a hack with ZERO integrity dude.... your game is, if its right its wrong, if its left its right....please don't pretend any different, being a liar too isn't going to help your resume.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why are you so scared of stating your actual positions?

???

It doesn't get much more clear than;

IF an American is in a combat zone and is collateral damage during a military operation, shit happens.

But that is FAR different than Obama assuming the role of absolute dictator and order the killing of American citizens without warrant, charge, judicial review, arrest, or any of those other inconveniences that civilized countries use.

Obama is a thug and a criminal. He has more in common with Pol Pot and Idi Amin than he does with Jefferson, Washington, or Adams.

What do you not grasp?

Now you're going in circles. Al Qaeda is a trans-national organization. It is not a country. The 'combat zone' principle doesn't apply.

An American joins Al Qaeda, which is by law at this time an enemy of the United States, that American becomes an enemy combatant. Enemy combatants no matter whether or not they are US citizens, do not have the same rights as ordinary citizens. The simple fact of their choosing to join Al Qaeda forfeits a whole set of rights.

 

[Liability]

In war, enemies don't get "due process."

And, frankly, if an enemy is plotting or engaging in activities designed to kill any Americans in time of war, I don't much give a fuck if that enemy is a foreigner or an American. In war, enemies get killed.

DHS named the Tea Party, Christians, and those who oppose abortion as "terrorists."

DHS Funded Study Pushing TEA Party Terrorism Narrative

You have no problem with Obama having these enemies killed with no trial, charge, arrest?

I said no such thing and I implied no such thing.

I don't give a fuck what some guys in DHS contend -- in their feeble thinking -- some organization could be described as.

But when our military and intelligence operatives have acquired strong and convincing evidence (not meaning "evidence" as used in a court) that some identified enemy is engaged in plans or plots or actions to wage war against us, it should be obvious that he is now a target.

He's not getting a "sentence" for a "crime" in some court of law. He is getting targeted as an enemy combatant in time of war. His citizenship should not save him from the consequences of his actions.

 

[Uncensored2008]

read what it is you pretend to know you are speaking about:


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

Hmm, nothing there about hits ordered by BOOOOSSSHHH

 

[Uncensored2008]

Now you're going in circles.

ROFL

Blowing smoke again, huh?

Al Qaeda is a trans-national organization. It is not a country.

Which means that "war" is an absurd concept. You cannot "war" against an ideal or inanimate objects. This is stupidity by the politically correct.

Al Qaeda is a criminal organization. Why do I say "criminal?" Because they are not sanctioned by any law of any nation. Even the Nazis operated within the laws of the Third Reich. Al Qaeda is different, associated with no particular nation and based on a RELIGIOUS rather than political foundation.

The 'combat zone' principle doesn't apply.

Really?

An American joins Al Qaeda, which is by law at this time an enemy of the United States, that American becomes an enemy combatant.

Again, Obama has declared the Tea Party and opponents of abortion to be enemies of the state. So do you support killing anyone who went to a Tea Party? (Memo to self, get more ammo!)

Enemy combatants no matter whether or not they are US citizens, do not have the same rights as ordinary citizens.

The Supreme Court disagreed in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, and ruled that civil rights DO accrue to citizens held as enemy combatants.

{ We now vacate and remand. We hold that although Congress authorized the detention of combatants in the narrow circumstances alleged here, due process demands that a citizen held in the United States as an enemy combatant be given a meaningful opportunity to contest the factual basis for that detention before a neutral decisionmaker.}

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

The simple fact of their choosing to join Al Qaeda forfeits a whole set of rights.

False.

The fact is that Barack Obama is a thug and a criminal.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

read what it is you pretend to know you are speaking about:


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

Hmm, nothing there about hits ordered by BOOOOSSSHHH

 

[Uncensored2008]

I said no such thing and I implied no such thing.

Sure you did. When you demand that Obama can kill enemies without judicial process, you said exactly this.

I don't give a fuck what some guys in DHS contend -- in their feeble thinking -- some organization could be described as.

You should, since you declared that it is sufficient to have Obama order the deaths of those so described.

But when our military and intelligence operatives have acquired strong and convincing evidence (not meaning "evidence" as used in a court) that some identified enemy is engaged in plans or plots or actions to wage war against us, it should be obvious that he is now a target.

Were not the Tea Party identified as making plans to end the presidency of Barack Obama? So isn't he justified in killing them (us) as enemies?

He's not getting a "sentence" for a "crime" in some court of law. He is getting targeted as an enemy combatant in time of war. His citizenship should not save him from the consequences of his actions.

I operate under the Constitution of the Old Republic, the one created in 1784.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

[Liability]

I said no such thing and I implied no such thing.

Sure you did. When you demand that Obama can kill enemies without judicial process, you said exactly this.

Wrong. What I did say is that the President of the United States should have the ability to authorize strikes against our enemies in time of war. I also say that the citizenship of the enemy combatant doesn't change the analysis. I also say that the red herring of "judicial process" is quite entirely BESIDE the point. Literally. It is not a judicial matter. It is not a criminal law matter. It is a matter of war.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And those like Shallow and Jakematters who hated it when Dubya was in office, but support it completely now that their little tin god is our ruler?

Furthermore, while I have opposed the Patriot act from day one, actually since the day Biden proposed it under Clinton, I will again remind you that Bush never killed American citizens, nor did he order the killing of American. While Jakematters and the rest of the ThinkProgress crowd called waterboarding a "war crime," they are perfectly okay with ordered assassinations.

Show where I hated drone strikes under Bush. I have always supported technology in lieu of troop lives and limbs.

I oppose torture, yes, as any civilized person does.

Did you support enhance interrogation?

I support correct definitions. Water Boarding is torture.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Wrong. What I did say is that the President of the United States should have the ability to authorize strikes against our enemies in time of war.

Two issues;

First, we are in a perpetual "state of war," it's a meaningless designation.

Secondly, you're good with strikes against "enemies" in a suburban neighborhood in Cleveland?

Seriously, Obama used a predator to fire hellfires into a car in the middle of a housing tract in a nation we are at peace with. This was not a battle field or anything close. It was an assassination, top to bottom, that killed a child.

I also say that the citizenship of the enemy combatant doesn't change the analysis. I also say that the red herring of "judicial process" is quite entirely BESIDE the point. Literally. It is not a judicial matter. It is not a criminal law matter. It is a matter of war.

I can only say that your analysis is deeply flawed. (When Jakematters, Rosie, Sallow, Rdean, etc. start repping you, you might want to rethink your position. I'm just sayin...)