Pro-life at 51%

[Shogun]

Indeed. NOW you have that option. Perhaps you should consider what exactly the OP is saying about how that WILL change.

What is it saying exactly that will change???

I'm quoting directly:

"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"

5/7-10/09
Pro-Choice: 42 Pro-Life: 51 Mixed/Neither: 2 Don't Know What Terms Mean: 4 Unsure: 1


The margin or error is 3%... that means that it is possible that the difference is much less, considering the 7% that are either unsure, mixed, or whatever... that's all of 10% and possibly larger change... I wouldn't call this poll decisive.

But besides that... the poll also says:

"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"

5/7-10/09
Legal Under Any: 22% Legal Only Under Certain: 53 Illegal In All: 23 Unsure: 2


I don't see much of a change coming... personally. But even if it is.. thank g-d, god, or allah that I live in Europe.

Look at the trends in each poll. You are not gaining ground.. Indeed, many cultural changes happen without a fanfare to prepare you. That is, after all, the same result that is still resonating 30 years after RvW, yes?

And Euro can do what it wants to do. Here in the US the correlation between female choice and killing babies is being unraveled. Watch and enjoy.

 

[Shogun]

Tell that to my child support checks I have to give in huge amounts even though I have my children 50% of the time.. and to the love and care I give to my children every fucking day... and to the non-existent free time in my life because I raise my kids as best I can

Yes.. we do not carry the baby for 9 months... but there is no less risk involved in the action for a man, than a woman... it takes 2 to tango, and the responsibility is there for both after the action is done

Dude, cry me a fucking river, I'm a single mom with 3 kids who pays for EVERYTHING, and has my daughter 100% of the time and my son 50% of the time.

It still doesn't compare with carrying a child for 9 months INSIDE OF YOU.

You have no clue. You're just looking for a way to control what women do.

no more than executing Aileen Wuornos was "just trying to control women". Say it again, "CARRYING A CHILD FOR 9 MONTHS INSIDE OF YOU.... Freudian slip?

 

[catzmeow]

You can talk to me about carrying and delivering children, and the responsibility that entails, when you've actually fucking done it, Shogun.

I've done it twice, and miscarried once. And I know what the risks are. I was hospitalized with my second child and had my tubes tied so I would not get pregnant.

Guess what? Even with taking that precaution AND condoms, I still had a pregnancy scare. I'm fairly certain that you, from your mightly pulpit, have not taken the precautions I have to prevent pregnancy, or had an unplanned pregnancy and carried it to term and raised the child).

So, fuck off.

You sit back and judge women whose circumstances you don't know for doing something you wouldn't do, if you could.

 

[Shogun]

the pendulum still swings, bitch. And that source wasn't a study; it was a poll. learn about fucking research methods.

You remain incorrect. 80% of the people surveyed suport abortion remaining legal, even though 51% of them classify themselves as pro-life.

I suspect that they fall into the same category as DavidS, Article 15, and myself. We want abortion in the first trimester to remain legal, but for abortions after that point to be illegal.

Way to alienate your ideological allies, dude.

First off, the link shows multiple POLLS. None of which are static in preserving your 80% number.

Second, as I stated above, look at the trending for each poll.. you are not gaining anything. Adding the stat from the "in some cases" column doesn't support your opinion since we are all familiar with the "life of the mother" ruse.

I'm not interested in "ideological allies". If you ever would pay attention you'd know better than to say some dumb shit like that. launching into some silly fucking "oh you must be a virgin" tangent after pouncing on the idea of a man voicing his opinion on this subject, as if testicles invalidate such, pretty much makes the very idea of "ideological allies" a total farce anyway.

Now, go find a compromise or risk losing the pot. your choice. pun intended.

 

[Shogun]

You can talk to me about carrying and delivering children, and the responsibility that entails, when you've actually fucking done it, Shogun.

I've done it twice, and miscarried once. And I know what the risks are. I was hospitalized with my second child and had my tubes tied so I would not get pregnant.

Guess what? Even with taking that precaution AND condoms, I still had a pregnancy scare. I'm fairly certain that you, from your mightly pulpit, have not taken the precautions I have to prevent pregnancy, or had an unplanned pregnancy and carried it to term and raised the child).

So, fuck off.

You sit back and judge women whose circumstances you don't know for doing something you wouldn't do, if you could.

And, likewise, you can tell me all about responsibility when you ACT like it, bitch. I'm not asking for your personal fucking diary here. You are not the first person to face a risky fucking pregnancy. Believe it when i say, I don't care how many fucking firecrackers you have set off THERE ALWAYS REMAINS A CHANCE that when you choose to shoot fireworks you might get your fucking finger blown off.

and, indeed, I take all the precautions that growing up in a culture of AIDS prompts. I don't really give a fuck if you think that life revolves around your personal experience. A lot of people are not out getting pregnant because they use prevention or BETTER FUCKING JUDGEMENT BEFORE THEIR SECONDS OF PLEASURE. Don't shit on my lawn just because you put more value in busting a nut than the human potential that may result thereof.

so, YOU fuck off. No one lit the fucking catmeow bat signal calling you into this goddamn thread anyway. You want to freely give your opinion and rail on others for doing the same? Fine. But don't act like someone shit in your cheerios when they don't roll over the first time you insist they are a virgin or just want to control women.


Indeed, I judge other assorted murderers too.

 

[Yukon]

The Republican Party (Conservative) are desperate for votes. If they thought for one minute that running on a platform that included making abortion ILLEGAL they would do so in a heart beat. What the hypocrit GOP does is tell their faithful followers that they are against abortion knowing full well that there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop abortion.

The days when men could control women are over. Go back to your caves GOP people.

 

[Shogun]

Do I strike you as someone who supports the fucking GOP?

go back to your cave and rethink your stereotypes.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." Edward Abbey

If those opposed to abortion supported child care and nutritional service for all children I could take them serious.
The act of sex wastes life, destroys the potential for life. Quit purposeless sex if you are serious about life.
If your only argument is a few cells become life those same cells die so potential has no meaning.
Animals are conscious beings and we kill and eat them daily. Some kill them for sport. So life is only important if it is my species life?
Each month the opportunity for life presents itself for a woman and yet they often prevent life from forming. If you carry anti pro-choice arguments to their extreme you have to allow me mine. This is true for men as well. Give life as often as you can or don't tell others what they should do.
By potential I mean we die, so again if I follow the extreme argument of the anti pro group, just as we are born we die so is death ok as it is where we end up anyway. Suicide anyone.
4000 living, breathing, sentient beings die daily and we argue abortion.
No one is killing innocent children they are just doing the same things everyone does when they prevent life from coming to fruition.
50% of fertilized eggs perish, God is screwing up here.
Ever look in a microscope at your semen. Lots of life there. Stop beating off.
In Genesis 38 we read that Onan "spilled his seed upon the ground," an act that so displeased the Lord that He struck him dead.
Let's support education and preventative measures and stop the BS that surrounds abortion.
Let's help those children who make it through but have so little.
And if the constitution/law mattered to you you would not care about abortion as it is legal. Right?


Boston Review — Judith Jarvis Thomson

Abortion was made legal by JUDGES, which is wrong in a democratic society.

The majority has ALWAYS been against it. Which is why this issue won't die down. We never voted to make murder legal so rich white college girls could sleep around.

Wrong. The USSC decision had to do with a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body (her own property), and it was therefore a Constitutionally correct decision. It wasn't a carte blanche approval of the abortion procedure.

 

[MaggieMae]

In other words, because they don't give a shit about the baby.

I don't give a shit who you are or where you were. I worked with addicts and women and I've been to abortion clinics, where they were performing abortions on women who were obviously very close to due, and another time on (my client) who WASN'T EVEN FLIPPING PREGNANT. They told her AFTER the "abortion" that she had already miscarried.

But they took her fucking $600 all the same, you better believe it.

There are horror stories related to any situation. I seriously doubt that kind of thing goes on regularly. That said, if a woman does miscarry, she should have a D&C (which IS the same procedure as an abortion). Otherwise, she risks serious infection from the residue.

 

[MaggieMae]

And I have NEVER heard a woman say "I wish so and so hadn't been born."

But I sure as hell have heard them say "I wish I hadn't had an abortion."

The whole "the child is better off dead" argument is as flat as rainwater, as well, btw. There's no evidence that legalizing abortion has in any way decreased the incidence of child abuse/neglect or even poverty. The kids who are poor were born to mothers who WANTED them, dumbass.

You know what? So what. NO matter how careful people are, accidents can happen. I had a pregnancy scare with my boyfriend last year. We'd been dating for about 6 months, and I missed a period.

Fortunately, I wasn't pregnant, but in that week, I thought about whether or not I could have a baby. At this point in my life, I couldn't. I'm 43, with two kids, and not married. I cannot afford the expense, the time off work, and I don't want to take time away from my kids to raise another baby.

I know for a fact that I'd have aborted.

And you know what? That's well within my rights. I'm more than an egg-incubator. A fetus at 4 weeks is not a human infant. They are not at all the same. Sure that fetus contains the POTENTIAL to become a human infant, but it's not there. It's a tiny cluster of cells.

I miscarried when I was 26. I caught the baby in my hand in the bathroom, after hours of agony. I was 12 weeks pregnant.

I've delivered 2 healthy full term babies.

They are not remotely the same.

If anyone doesn't give a crap about babies, it's GOD. 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Most of the fetuses are too damaged or malformed to survive. Most women who miscarry do so before they are even aware that they are pregnant.

Beyond that, if God cares so much, why does he allow millions of children - every single year - to starve to death?

Being pro-abortion during the first trimester is not the same as being pro-abortion for a late term abortion.

And, I get tired of your inflammatory, judgemental rhetoric, Allie.

You're a self-righteous jerk. I'm tired of the fanatics controlling this discussion, as if they have a right to.

If you would never have an abortion, well-done you. You don't get the right to make that decision for someone else. Nor are you entitled to judge women who choose differently.

Good answers, Cat. And I can empathize with your two situations. I too miscarried (into the toilet). Lots and lots of blood because I was hemorrhaging. The whole bathroom looked like a scene from Saw. Then after 2 healthy children, by then adolescents, I thought I was pregnant again (oops, not by my husband ), and just the pure agony over the decision was enough to postpone my period for a full three months. When I finally saw an OBGYN, he said it's very common for a woman in her late 30's or early 40's to start missing periods, as the ovaries begin to shrink. So I wasn't pregnant after all. Needless to say, it was PARTY TIME!!

Frankly, I think it's mostly MEN who are so anti-abortion and if they ever had to actually give birth themselves, it wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[MaggieMae]

Abortion

The latest poll has 51% of people classifying themselves as pro-life, and 44% classifying themselves as pro-choice.

and your point? you think anyone really wants to stop a multi million dollar business?

The libs certainly don't. Planned Parenthood is their mealticket.

You certainly don't show a lot of sympathy, seeing as you "work with" addicts, homeless, etc. If you have a job, or even volunteer, at a social worker's level, it seems to me you would need to provide your "clients" with all the options, including the MANY services of Planned Parenthood which is NOT solely frequented by "libs."

 

[MaggieMae]

Does anyone ever think about how selfish it is to destroy something that someone else is working so hard to get. There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.

Abortion is no different than when the government decided another group weren't really people and therefore couldn't vote, i.e. the blacks.

A baby is not a part of a woman's body and she has no jurisdiction over it.

There is no shortage of babies, toddlers, and other young children waiting for adoption either. The process has too much red tape and effectually strangles the process. I think if I ever had the decision to make again, and did not want the child or could not care for it myself, I would advertise privately as a surrogate mother and let a lawyer handle the details.

 

[MaggieMae]

Now that Obama has "legalized" stem cell research Im certain that the rate of abortion will increase once research centre start paying women for aborted fetal tissue. Im sure in some of the upscale ghetto's of DC the women will line up.

You need that stem cell research, so they can grow a brain for you so you can learn more about stem cell research.

 

[Dr Grump]

Do you say the same thing when cops arrest a murderer? I mean, thats the DIRTY WORK of my principal against murder, eh?

You probably shouldn't try and tangent into torture, yo... that one will blow up in your face.

Indeed, you may want to think as much but, legally, we've prosicuted abortions before in this country and we can do it again. Don't want my opinion in your vagina? Then stop turning your vagina into a death chamber.

Most abortions happen in the first trimester. If you want all those people not to have abortions, put a sign out and say you'll take care of the baby.
Before you scream "personal choice" and "close your legs" - save the rant. I deal with how it happens in real life, not some warped Utopian ideal that your moral high-ground vacuous, mind-numbing brain thinks the world should work. Start dealing with reality, then start giving practical solutions. We can all stand on our high horse. You do that a lot, with this and the Israel issues....

 

[Terry]

I think the number is far greater than the 51 percent and it's because the so called PRO CHOICE movement hurt their cause. When a government agency backs and supports any doctor or clinic to make it very easy to have an abortion its no wonder why American has changed!

All to often the excuse for the progressives is that a young girl is raped by her dad blah blah blah. Those cases are very low percentage wise.

When our Gov. made laws to make it easier to just get an abortion instead of taking the pill, or re-vamp our adoption laws, to give that option more agressively to woman then there is a problem!

Lets face it the me generation (have it now, cannot wait) doesn't want to be bothered with the hassle of taking a pill, they find it easier to take their chances and just get the abortions, and clinics and our Gov. promote that shit.

If a woman wants an abortion then fine, but to promote abortions and shit that has been done is OVER the FUCKING LINE.

 

[Anguille]

There is no shortage of people waiting for adoption.

So go out and adopt one.

I phrased that ambiguously by accident. Let me rephrase. There is no shortage of people waiting to adopt children.

My personal opinion on whether I want to adopt a child is not germane to this discussion.

First of all, I've never heard a hillbilly use the expression "not germane". Thouigh admittedly I don't often have occasion to converse with hillbillies, so what do I know.

Second, I know you worded that badly. I still think you should adopt, figuratively speaking, a person who want to adopt a child and convince them that if they truly love children they will be willing to adopt and love a less than perfect one. Because they all are less than perfect, you know, even the ones who live with their genetic parents.

 

[Anguille]

Arabs in Israel, you mean. Palestine doesn't exist.

And no, they should all just be sterilized.

Are you concerned about the fact that it is projected that in 30 years there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews?

Not if I can help it.

Besides, the birth rate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are that of the Arabs in Israel. We are finally getting back at them for doing what they did to us 80 years ago: Illegally populating their land. We have half a million people there now - who are each having around 7 children. Within 20 years from now, the Jewish population of the West Bank could reach up to 3 million people. Within 50 years from now, there could be up to 10 million Jews. All the while, the fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is steadily decreasing and the illegal Arab immigrants who are living in Gaza and the West Bank have terrible health care and live shorter, less productive lives than Jews do.

By the time I am old enough to be a great grandfather, hopefully the Arabs will have been kicked out of Israeli territory and there will be only Jews and Christians living there.

I thought you were an American? Are you an Israeli?

By the time you are a grand father, you better hope nobody is having excess children.

 

[Anguille]

Do your research on long-term psychological effects of adopted children. It's not as sunshine and rainbows as you think it is.

You're right, we should just kill them all instead.

You really are stupid, aren't you?

"I had a friend this, I had a friend that." Overwhelming majority of adopted children suffer severe psychological trauma to the whole process. Abandonment, depression, self esteem... many are loners. Again, do your research.

There are a few adopted people in my extended family. They are the well adjusted ones. The messed up ones are the ones with the genuine Scandinavian genes.

 

[Anguille]

Jillian is most definately an intelligent woman with a mind of her own. Rare these days in a society that has gone mad with political hypocracy by denouncing Muslims for controlling women yet want to control the reproductive capabilities of Christian women.

BRAVO jillian BRAVO !!

Somebody's in lurve ...

 

[Anguille]

you use the word "life" like it has some talismanic meaning. We kill live things ALL the time.... we kill bacteria; we kill animals for food and because people choose to; we kill the "enemy" if there is a war...

so the reliance on the term "life" is silly and not relevant to the discussion.

Can't be said more plainly than that.