Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[kjw47]

Jesus went back to being a spirit at his resurrection. He hadn't even become king yet at that point--not until Rev 6--post war in heaven.

Actually, no. He presented His physically resurrected body to His disciples, eating with them, allowing them to touch His hands and His side to demonstrate it really was Him.

The first day outside the tomb--Mary didn't recognize Jesus because he was not in his original body. He appeared behind a locked door--physical bodies cannot do that. But he can appear at will in his original body like he did with Thomas.

So, IOW, He is in His resurrected body, and in the resurrection, we will be like Him. There is no need for separate bodies at all.

144,000 are [promised heaven--Rev 14:3--bought from the earth. These are the little flock( Luke 12:32) the bride of Christ. There isn't a single passage that teaches the great multitude go to heaven. But instead received this promise from Jesus--Matt 5:5--Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. I would advise to believe Jesus.

Of course. His saints will reign with Him, thus inheriting the earth. I do believe Jesus.

From 2 Timothy 2:

If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.

From Romans 6:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Only--144,000 are bought from the earth.

 

[tyroneweaver]

There's no scriptural evidence of that!!!!

1Peter 3:18--- put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
Rev 6--he receives his crown.

Read the next verse:

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same,

24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

God's word a lie???? when it clearly states Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
That Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Thee Jehovah of JW doctrine Clearly states in first two chapters of Rev. that Jehovah died.
1:8“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”f says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty
1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the Firsto and the Last,p
1:18 and the living one,q and I became dead,r but look! I am living forever and ever,s and I have the keys of death and of the G8“And to the angel of the
2:8 And congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’l who became dead and came to life a


A quickening spirit is a physical body that doesn't have blood running through the veins. It has something else. 1Cor. 15:35-36 says a person who is quickened has a body.
1Cor.15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
Phillipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, That it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body....
Rev.22:4 And they shall see his face
Rev.21:3 And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them....(2Cor.5:1-2,4
So Jesus administered with the apostles for 40 days. Was he a spirit then or did he have a body of flesh and bones? When the Angles testified that He would return in like manner as He ascended. What was he ascending with"


Now does the Bible contradict itself or is the JW religion false. Or....is it worse than false?

Your misinterpretation is what is false. 3 speak in Revelation--Jehovah, Jesus and John. Truth only gets revealed through Jesus' real teachers to share at the proper time.
Jesus said--Hallowed be thy( Father) name= YHWH(Jehovah)--- Jesus is not the Father. The Father is Jesus' God and Jesus' real teachers teach that fact--Paul, Peter and John did.

Before Abraham was I Am...
Do you think they just took up stones to have a rock throwing contest?

 

[hobelim]

Nonsense. Jesus was seen simultaneously by multiple people at multiple times, on one occasion more than 500 at once. 500 people do not have the same dream at the same time in which they all see, hear, and touch the same person. In order to insist otherwise, you have to completely discount the Biblical record, in which case you're no longer discussing what the Bible says.

At the time of his death Jesus did not have 500 brethren to have appeared to at once. There were at the most 15 people who knew Jesus well enough to understand his teaching and know that he wasn't insane. The Gospels only mention Jesus appearing to his disciples and closest friends. Paul did not know Jesus. His supposed vision on the road to damascus sounds like a psychotic break with reality more than anything else, probably caused by the guilt and self loathing consequent to his murderous hatred for Jesus and persecution of his early followers. When Jesus appeared to everyone else their eyes and minds were opened, they were not blinded.

Lazarus was indeed physically dead, had been for 4 days and the people didn't want to open the tomb because of the stench given off by his decaying body.

Lazarus had been losing faith in Jesus. This is when he was said to be sick. When he was said to be dead, he had lost faith completely and returned to Pharisaic beliefs and practices. He was taking part in a ritual purification process where he was supposed to stay in a windowless room like a tomb without bathing for seven days after which he was supposed to take a ritual bath and become purified from his sin of apostasy so that he could return to life in good standing within the community. After 4 days his body stank. Go figure. When Jesus called to him he came out. A miracle! When Jesus told his disciples to remove his grave clothes he was telling them to deprogram Lazarus from Pharisaic brainwashing.

Jesus compared the Pharisees to whitewashed tombs and unmarked graves. Lazarus coming out of the tomb and rising from death to life was comparable to someone like you leaving the church and coming out of your own grave of idolatrous devotion, under divine condemnation and penalty of death, which would truly be a miracle. Nothing supernatural or reality defying about it but miraculous nevertheless.

Basically, you are insisting that the God who created the universe and all of its physical laws is not greater than His own creation. That doesn't make any sense.

What doesn't make any sense is your belief that God would violate the very laws that he established according to his infinite wisdom for all physical life forms from the beginning.

You understand neither scripture nor the power of God.

 

[HaShev]

The Damascus story is most likely stolen from the accts of Pol (Appollonius) of Tyana who also was from Tarsus.
Seems Paul is also a compiled figure...
1)Saul 2)Sergius Paulus called Paul 3)Pol

 

[hobelim]

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

According to Jesus a person who believes his teaching, and acts on it, will never know what it is to die even after they are dead.

Jesus, as the first to rise from the dead, had literally no one else to witness to except the dead..

 

[shimon]

Before Abraham I am can be easily explained tyronweaver has been explained on other threads but since you may have missed it here goes once again.... Wink wink...The Hebrew Scriptures exsisted long before your group came along and breaking the commandments of Deutoronomy where you can neither add or delete to the scriptures your group wrote your logos or word Jesus and the New Testament and added it and placed it with the Hebrew Scriptures before Abraham was mentioned and then sneakily claimed Before Abraham I am the story of the stones was added in to give your Jesus a breathing persona since he only exsisted in your book and no where else...wink wink...

 

[kjw47]

1Peter 3:18--- put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
Rev 6--he receives his crown.

Read the next verse:

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same,

24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

God's word a lie???? when it clearly states Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
That Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Thee Jehovah of JW doctrine Clearly states in first two chapters of Rev. that Jehovah died.
1:8“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”f says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty
1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the Firsto and the Last,p
1:18 and the living one,q and I became dead,r but look! I am living forever and ever,s and I have the keys of death and of the G8“And to the angel of the
2:8 And congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’l who became dead and came to life a


A quickening spirit is a physical body that doesn't have blood running through the veins. It has something else. 1Cor. 15:35-36 says a person who is quickened has a body.
1Cor.15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
Phillipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, That it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body....
Rev.22:4 And they shall see his face
Rev.21:3 And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them....(2Cor.5:1-2,4
So Jesus administered with the apostles for 40 days. Was he a spirit then or did he have a body of flesh and bones? When the Angles testified that He would return in like manner as He ascended. What was he ascending with"


Now does the Bible contradict itself or is the JW religion false. Or....is it worse than false?

Your misinterpretation is what is false. 3 speak in Revelation--Jehovah, Jesus and John. Truth only gets revealed through Jesus' real teachers to share at the proper time.
Jesus said--Hallowed be thy( Father) name= YHWH(Jehovah)--- Jesus is not the Father. The Father is Jesus' God and Jesus' real teachers teach that fact--Paul, Peter and John did.

Before Abraham was I Am...
Do you think they just took up stones to have a rock throwing contest?

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham---Jesus answered that question that is all. Teachers of darkness twist it just like the Pharisees twisted it.
I am that I am is not even the correct translating of the Hebrew statement made in the ot. Making the term I am --null and void to begin with. Jesus answered a question that is all.

 

[kjw47]

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

According to Jesus a person who believes his teaching, and acts on it, will never know what it is to die even after they are dead.

Jesus, as the first to rise from the dead, had literally no one else to witness to except the dead..

So where was mankind who died the previous 4000 years before Jesus lived??? You are taught a spirit is in all mortals--where were their spirits if that is truth???Since none were raised from the dead prior to Jesus.
Show me where Jesus said your first statement

 

[hobelim]

So where was mankind who died the previous 4000 years before Jesus lived??? You are taught a spirit is in all mortals--where were their spirits if that is truth???Since none were raised from the dead prior to Jesus.

They eked out their existence through labor, the sweat of their brow, THINKING, only producing thorns and thistles for all of their days until they died physical deaths, then the judgment. People who are not judged worthy of the resurrection in this life are judged according to their words and deeds upon their physical death as it has always been. Some proceed to everlasting life, some do not.

By teaching people how to obtain the life promised for obedience to the law Jesus made it possible for all people who act on his teaching to escape judgement by passing from death to eternal life in this world. People who live righteous lives and die righteous deaths are immediately received into an eternal abode - a permanent existence.

Show me where Jesus said your first statement

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." John 11:25-27

 

[kjw47]

So where was mankind who died the previous 4000 years before Jesus lived??? You are taught a spirit is in all mortals--where were their spirits if that is truth???Since none were raised from the dead prior to Jesus.

They eked out their existence through labor, the sweat of their brow, THINKING, only producing thorns and thistles for all of their days until they died physical deaths, then the judgment. People who are not judged worthy of the resurrection in this life are judged according to their words and deeds upon their physical death as it has always been. Some proceed to everlasting life, some do not.

By teaching people how to obtain the life promised for obedience to the law Jesus made it possible for all people who act on his teaching to escape judgement by passing from death to eternal life in this world. People who live righteous lives and die righteous deaths are immediately received into an eternal abode - a permanent existence.

Show me where Jesus said your first statement

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." John 11:25-27

Then how come they all died?

According to revelation--the resurrection does not occur until after Har-mageddon.

 

[hobelim]

So where was mankind who died the previous 4000 years before Jesus lived??? You are taught a spirit is in all mortals--where were their spirits if that is truth???Since none were raised from the dead prior to Jesus.

They eked out their existence through labor, the sweat of their brow, THINKING, only producing thorns and thistles for all of their days until they died physical deaths, then the judgment. People who are not judged worthy of the resurrection in this life are judged according to their words and deeds upon their physical death as it has always been. Some proceed to everlasting life, some do not.

By teaching people how to obtain the life promised for obedience to the law Jesus made it possible for all people who act on his teaching to escape judgement by passing from death to eternal life in this world. People who live righteous lives and die righteous deaths are immediately received into an eternal abode - a permanent existence.

Show me where Jesus said your first statement

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." John 11:25-27

Then how come they all died?

According to revelation--the resurrection does not occur until after Har-mageddon.

How come they all died? LOL. Everyone dies. Human beings have been subject to the birth and death of the body like all forms of life have been ever since life first appeared on this planet. Everything must be this way. You should rather ask why Adam and Eve continued to live physical lives even though God assured them that they would die in the very day that they defied his command. The obvious answer is that The Death consequent to sin has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the body dying. It follows then that the resurrection has absolutely nothing whatever to do with a dead body coming back to life and eternal life has nothing whatever to do with physical immortality

According to revelation there are two resurrections. The dead in christ are supposed to be the first to rise.

What are you waiting for? Permission from your superiors? I hate to break the news to you but the dead rising from the unmarked graves and elaborately decorated tombs that they have spent their entire lives filling with well intentioned corpses like yourself would be the last thing that they would want to actually happen at this particular space in time in spite of all of their blubbering about Jesus is coming.

 

[HaShev]

No in Hebrew they say Jesus HaShev (returns) and so they chuckle as others cringe. ;-)

 

[shimon]

Lol.....return, restore, deliver..... Hashev, Hashev, Hashev ... Keep the seventh day and make it Holy.... Ha is the... Seven is Sheva.... And the list goes on....

 

[HaShev]

And on that 7th day they go to church or confession to HaShev(redeem) themselves by giving 15% of their earnings to Y'Shu which the church collects on Y'Shu's behalf.
Do you think their ear hairs will stand straight up if I declare that
I'M HERE TO COLLECT WHAT'S RIGHTFULLY MINE.
Do you think I could collect on that stash away of funds if I took them to court. *LOL*

 

[shimon]

Depends they might circle the wagons and boycott the court proceedings...It is funny that the guy who invented " boycotts". In 1888 was named Cunningham after all not only do they eat the stuff but they think they are so smart and cunning which is close to conning in doing so
..Besides justice is supposed to blind and you only need half a shekel each to help build the temple Far less then Yshu or the church takes and yet I am sure they will begrudge you that as well.....

 

[Picaro]

When Ezekiel was carried by an angel holding his hair and flew through the air from Babylon to Jerusalem where he dug though 13 feet of the temple wall of solid stone with his bare hands it wasn't described as a dream either.

I suppose the writers assumed that an intelligent reader would know that such things don't happen anywhere else but in dreams.

It is the Jewish belief that dreams are the medium through which God communicates to man. If the disciples spoke with with Jesus in their dreams after he died they would have been convinced that Jesus survived death and had received the reward of the righteous, eternal life, and was in the realm of God.

He was seen repeatedly by multiple people at the same time. Not a dream.

Exactly like in Ezekiel, the details and circumstances of each visitation makes it impossible that they were truthful eyewitness accounts of anything but a dream.

Dead people do not materialize and dematerialize in crowded locked rooms except in dreams.

Of course they don't. Jesus isn't dead any more, remember? He is in His resurrected body. No, you don't get 500 people to see the same person at the same time in a dream.

The subject of the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after physical death, it is about entry into a new existence after spiritual death while still living in a physical body.

Just like the story of the transfiguration is about what was seen during a dream the appearances of Jesus after his crucifixion were eyewitness accounts of what was seen and heard during dreams.

Nonsense. Jesus was seen simultaneously by multiple people at multiple times, on one occasion more than 500 at once. 500 people do not have the same dream at the same time in which they all see, hear, and touch the same person. In order to insist otherwise, you have to completely discount the Biblical record, in which case you're no longer discussing what the Bible says.

Lazarus was not physically dead when he came out of the tomb and neither were they physically dead those who came to life when they heard Jesus preach while they were still in the grave.

Lazarus was indeed physically dead, had been for 4 days and the people didn't want to open the tomb because of the stench given off by his decaying body.

Jesus who was living under an ISIS style compulsory observance of a literal interpretation and application of Mosaic law compared the Pharisees and their beliefs and practices to whitewashed tombs and unmarked graves.

One does not have to throw their rational mind in the garbage and deny truths about reality to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Basically, you are insisting that the God who created the universe and all of its physical laws is not greater than His own creation. That doesn't make any sense.

Good job in this thread on the theology and context of the verses cited. Apparently the influence of all that Gnostic gibberish promoted by the Bauer School and his fans like Paegels is more widespread than I thought.

Any thoughts on the premise that the authors of John and Revelations were converted Pharisees? A different topic than this one, so probably another thread.

 

[Picaro]

Hashev, what you post here is beyond our comprehension. Maybe you should go post over at the Mensa forum

It's well beyond his comprehension, too; might as well read the Quran if you're into extremes of cognitive dissonance.

 

[hobelim]

And on that 7th day they go to church or confession to HaShev(redeem) themselves by giving 15% of their earnings to Y'Shu which the church collects on Y'Shu's behalf.
Do you think their ear hairs will stand straight up if I declare that
I'M HERE TO COLLECT WHAT'S RIGHTFULLY MINE.
Do you think I could collect on that stash away of funds if I took them to court. *LOL*

The money collected for Jesus is rightfully yours? You? The guy who with all that 666 baal Jesus the mamzer talk? You want to take Christians to court to claim money dedicated to him? You will need to demonstrate more proof than the ability to create one golem. any two bit huckster TV preacher can do that in spades. Are you the prince of darkness or something?

If you were the returned messiah you should have no problem claiming what is rightfully yours. All you have to do is break the seven seals placed on scripture, reveal what has been hidden inside in full view of believers and unbelievers alike, cure blindness, heal the sick, raise the dead, slaughter the scarlet beast, and usher in 1000 years of peace.

If you went to court to claim money set aside for Jesus you would leave the court in a straightjacket.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Read the next verse: Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same, If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

God's word a lie???? when it clearly states Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
That Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Thee Jehovah of JW doctrine Clearly states in first two chapters of Rev. that Jehovah died.
1:8“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”f says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty
1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the Firsto and the Last,p
1:18 and the living one,q and I became dead,r but look! I am living forever and ever,s and I have the keys of death and of the G8“And to the angel of the
2:8 And congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’l who became dead and came to life a


A quickening spirit is a physical body that doesn't have blood running through the veins. It has something else. 1Cor. 15:35-36 says a person who is quickened has a body.
1Cor.15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
Phillipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, That it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body....
Rev.22:4 And they shall see his face
Rev.21:3 And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them....(2Cor.5:1-2,4
So Jesus administered with the apostles for 40 days. Was he a spirit then or did he have a body of flesh and bones? When the Angles testified that He would return in like manner as He ascended. What was he ascending with"


Now does the Bible contradict itself or is the JW religion false. Or....is it worse than false?

Your misinterpretation is what is false. 3 speak in Revelation--Jehovah, Jesus and John. Truth only gets revealed through Jesus' real teachers to share at the proper time.
Jesus said--Hallowed be thy( Father) name= YHWH(Jehovah)--- Jesus is not the Father. The Father is Jesus' God and Jesus' real teachers teach that fact--Paul, Peter and John did.

Before Abraham was I Am...
Do you think they just took up stones to have a rock throwing contest?

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham---Jesus answered that question that is all. Teachers of darkness twist it just like the Pharisees twisted it.
I am that I am is not even the correct translating of the Hebrew statement made in the ot. Making the term I am --null and void to begin with. Jesus answered a question that is all.

Ya, I've read the this passage in the green bible and you guys slaughtered it. Tell me, why is it you guys add to, or delete from; passages in the bible that specifically call into question Jesus's diety.
Now I could see it if it was some mundane passage. but it sure seams like it's the passages that relate to Jesus's Diety that you guys slaughter.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Before Abraham I am can be easily explained tyronweaver has been explained on other threads but since you may have missed it here goes once again.... Wink wink...The Hebrew Scriptures exsisted long before your group came along and breaking the commandments of Deutoronomy where you can neither add or delete to the scriptures your group wrote your logos or word Jesus and the New Testament and added it and placed it with the Hebrew Scriptures before Abraham was mentioned and then sneakily claimed Before Abraham I am the story of the stones was added in to give your Jesus a breathing persona since he only exsisted in your book and no where else...wink wink...

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.