Question for rtwng

[crazy canadian]

I mean don't get confused by what made an ideology fail the first time. I don't mean forget it. Learn from it.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
gopjeff, it's not a solution if it isn't already in place. It's an idea. A solution fits the needs of both sides.

No, cc, a solution solves a problem. For instance, you brought up the problem of the poor. Capitalism claims that in a free market, all citizens would be able to work and earn up to their full potential if they want to work at their full potential. Thus, needy people need to realize their full potential by working, or by learning a skill that will pay them better. Socialism claims that the wealthy are morally responsible to share their wealth with the needy, with no reciprocal obligation. Thus, handouts and wealth redistribution.
One problem (poor people who don't have enough to meet their basic needs), two solutions (capitalism vs. socialism). Which one to choose?

 

[crazy canadian]

As long as you let them know it's their decision whether or not they want to change, then that's ok. There are certain religions that wouldn't allow it, and they are very afraid. And they have weapons.

 

[crazy canadian]

Gopjeff, I guess I'm not talking about capitalism and socialism then. It's just my idea of capitalism and socialism. My kids are misbehaving. I must go take care of that.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
I mean don't get confused by what made an ideology fail the first time. I don't mean forget it. Learn from it.

Ok. See, I got confused cause you said "forget" and not "learn from". The lesson to take away from failed experiments in socialism is that socialism doesn't work. can you make this abstraction/distillation?

 

[crazy canadian]

And the lesson for you to take away from this is that capitalism, on it's own, won't work unless you kill all the socialists in the world.

SO why don't you stop fighting and start thinking up brand new solutions?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
And the lesson for you to take away from this is that capitalism, on it's own, won't work unless you kill all the socialists in the world.

SO why don't you stop fighting and start thinking up brand new solutions?

So be it.

You've really drawn quite a line in the sand here haven't you?

You stop fighting. Capitalism and freedom work. I don't want anarchy or anything. And I don't even mind a very basic safety net. But nothing is enough for you libs. You will never stop appealing to the base emotion of envy. It's all you have in your bag of tricks.

 

[crazy canadian]

Why don't you decide what is fair for every human being to start out with? Then ask the liberals if that is what they want. Build a big computer that you can donate your capitalist money to, only if you want to, and then it's given out to everyone, and that'll shut up the liberals and give them time to go to the lake?
Please don't answer that question. You're supposed to be drinking right now.

Later

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
This is classic. I love how Socialism has suddenly become the 'greatest evil' since communism yet its clear that by doing so, very few people have grown intellectually and spiritually to understand that socialism is the next step in human societal evolution. The desire for everyone to be equal and work for the common cause of mankind will eventually take root. It will suck ass for those that have to 'die with the most toys', but face it, nepotism will be on the downward spiral in the next few generations.

Right on DK. The essence of mankind is a blend of democracy and socialism. Many of the ancient tribes of men had a mini-govt. based on these two systems. All tribal elders had a voice in the path of their tribe and everyone worked to help each other out. No one was left to starve.

 

[crazy canadian]

Sweet. Did you know that Canada was formed by a bunch of leaders who came to my Island and had a big party? I may have to delete that to maintain any level of credibility for myself, and my country.

 

[mattskramer]

I have many questions concerning Socialism. No one has ever given me a clear and straight answer. Perhaps some on this board can provide the answers. The following are a couple of fundamental questions:

How will it be determined whether or not I am too financially successful?

What will I be allowed to have - will my tiny television be taken away since it is not a true necessity?

If there are hidden assumptions in my questions please clarify and explain.

 

[crazy canadian]

I don't think socialism has the right to say whether or not a person is too financially successful, that is up to the individual to decide.

If socialism respected the plights of capitalists, which is the only way it would ever work, than not only can you keep your TV, but you can even buy a surround sound system.

 

[JohnGalt]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
What if socialism met capitalism halfway, with the use of computers?

Am I living in a dreamland?

There you have it ladies and gentlemen!
The reason why socialists and capitalists won't combine is because capitalists refuse to combine and conform their beliefs. While socialists are all too willing to give up and conform.

This is one of my previous posts (in fact, it was my first...):
"America has faced a magnificent number of enemies in its short history. The greatest of enemies was communism, but since the 50's it has been slandered enough to ensure that it will never again hold a foothold with the goal of unifying the world. However, the world seems to have turned to communism's little brother, socialism, which has been tried on every continent in the world. The advocates of socialism argue that they do their work for the progress of man-kind, and this is their weapon. The first sign is famine such as in Cuba. And the true difference between capitalism and socialism has been answered once and for all, just look at east and west Berlin of the late eighties. The socialist leaders are power lusted and search for the unearned always. They are full of indefinable altruist slogans for the advancement of collectivism all for the purpose of supporting their self-deception. One sure way to spot a dangerous socialist leader is to look at the monuments he builds, for the purpose of his prestige. In the days of the pharaohs' thousands of men died so that their leader will be able to rest in a senseless structure so that he may have prestige in the eyes of the unborn future generations. America's greatness lies in the fact that her monuments aren't public. The skyline of New York is a far greater monument then the pyramids will ever be.
So remember, there will always be a no contest between humanrights and property-rights, No human rights can exist without property rights. Since the material goods that an individual man works for are produced by mind and effort, and are needed to continue to live, if the producer doesn't own the payment of his effort, then he doesn't own his life. Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming he right to treat human beings as nothing more than a herd of mindless cattle. When you think of socialism, think of the mindless mediocrity that was spawned not of effort, but of unearned prestige, and then think of the public park, public houses, public theaters, and then remember the New York skyline, and think of what made America.
Clearly America is under attack, not from the soundness of mind, but from the sickness of heart, and only the individual man with reason as his weapon could ever defeat the enemy."

 

[JohnGalt]

Had to dig around for this one...

Both of these are by DK:

prepare for the future of socialism. It will happen. It's inevitable. The sooner you accept this, the better off you will be.

(from page two of this thread)

and then...

and this is a primary reason why not only capitalism, but socialism as well, will fail and is failing.

(from America's New Enemy in General USA chat)

Hmmm...

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by JohnGalt
There you have it ladies and gentlemen!
The reason why socialists and capitalists won't combine is because capitalists refuse to combine and conform their beliefs. While socialists are all too willing to give up and conform.

This is such an utterly simplistic and wrong view it's laughable.

The socialists on here don't give up at all. They argue their ignorant ideas all day long, ignoring history and fact regarding the proven failures of socialism.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by crazy canadian
I don't think socialism has the right to say whether or not a person is too financially successful, that is up to the individual to decide.

then it wouldn't BE socialism. Socialism is the redistributing of wealth equally to everyone, even though most of the people didn't actually work for it.

I would prefer to keep all I earn and decide how MY money should be spent. I would give more to charity if it weren't for the government taxing me to where I am able to live, but I have to think twice before blowing $25 on a charity donation when I could spend it on something for our house.

 

[crazy canadian]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
So be it.

You've really drawn quite a line in the sand here haven't you?

You stop fighting. Capitalism and freedom work. I don't want anarchy or anything. And I don't even mind a very basic safety net. But nothing is enough for you libs. You will never stop appealing to the base emotion of envy. It's all you have in your bag of tricks.

The basic safety net isn't good enough. And socialists want us to help the rest of the world too, and that isn't going to happen if capitalism takes over. Unless you claim that capitalism will work out in the end to produce very kind, generous, wealthy people who, after the rich get richer, ignoring the (pissed off) poor for some time, then turn around and give all their extra earnings to support the rest of the world who didn't have the same fair start as those who 'made it'.

I just don't think capitalism has the time needed for this to happen. That's why you have to open up your mind to other solutions.

Right now, capitalists look greedy in the eyes of the world, and that pisses people off.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Had to dig around for this one...

Both of these are by DK:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
prepare for the future of socialism. It will happen. It's inevitable. The sooner you accept this, the better off you will be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(from page two of this thread)

and then...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and this is a primary reason why not only capitalism, but socialism as well, will fail and is failing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(from America's New Enemy in General USA chat)

Hmmm...

lets be sure we don't take my quote out of 'context', shall we?

This is what I said in whole and the statement that I replied to.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helping the welfare of others in the name of humanity is simply a waste. I admit that my ideas do leave some of the less fortunate people behind... but I am not one of them, and so I can say that welfare is a waste.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



and this is a primary reason why not only capitalism, but socialism as well, will fail and is failing.

Those who think helping their fellow man, or humanity, is a waste is someone who has no faith in humanity or is only interested in self serving interests, i.e. no humanity in themselves.

Now, I admit that there are some 'freeloaders' out there that are not deserving of ANY assistance whatsoever but that is a very small amount and could be weeded out with little effort.

The main reason 'capitalism' is failing is that it is no longer about being the most competitive, but about destroying the competition. Control over that part of the market to the point of disregard for anything else, including fellow man.

when we cease to care for our fellow man is when society fails in general.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
and this is a primary reason why not only capitalism, but socialism as well, will fail and is failing.

If it is failing, then why is the United States the most powerful economy in the world, yet as I recall, we are the youngest economy? Somehow we have enabled ourselves to pull out of a recession PDQ, and still pay other countries bills, yet never get anything in return but grief for those we support, and also our own citizens.

If we were to pull funding that we give yearly to all the countries who are against us, there would no longer be a deficit. But what do we do? We keep on giving. We get nothing back financially. France owes us SO MUCH money, same with Germany. Yet, they don't seem to be jumping up to get their checkbook, and instead are constantly saying we are stupid and lazy. How's that for irony? They say we are stupid and lazy, yet they are the ones with the 4-day work week, twice the vacation time that the average US worker gets, France's uneployment hovers around 9.7% as of Dec 2003 and Germany's unemployment rate is around 11.1%, as of March 2004.

Negative people will always look for the negative in everything.

 

[Annie]

Had to dig around for this one... originally posted by DK

You are never going to get that sleep, DK. Better stay in a good mood.

Fuzzy you are right. US has a strong economy, due to both economic and social plans.