CDZ Question.

[Picaro]

Well, I happen to be one of those 'liberals', and I do support some moderate policies, and don't give a rat's ass whether or not a policy is liked by either left or right wing ideologues, and in fact ir was mostly those evul libruls who had the right ideas when it came to fighting the Cold War, Hitler, and actively fighting off Communist take overs in South America, Africa, and SE Asia, while so-called 'conservatives' and right wingers preferred isolationism and sniveling, no surprise who now touts up such 'liberal' regimes as Red China as the business lobby's new BFF and is just as supportive of open borders as any La Raza racist is, and in fact showers more money on lobbying for it than the left wingers do.

Patrick Moynihan's predictions on how the culture wars and the Democrats caving in to the radicals have certainly in the main proven out. It was Moynihan and Humphrey who led the fight against turning AA into a quota system, for one, even defeated it despite being weakened by the left radicals and their fellow travellers on the right, both 'isolationist', both 'libertarian', Nixon gave that to them, and both complicit in promoting mindless self-indulgence as the highest of Holiest of Holies and Freedum, whether it be acquisition of wealth or political power for the Stupid. People who think it's all a 'left wing thing' aren't really paying any attention.

Most who complain about 'what got us here' have the luxury of not having the first clue of what didn't happen if liberal policies in the past were different. Hard to prove what might have been if certain policies were different, after all; as for myself, having traveled a lot of real shitholes over a lifetime, I'm more than satisfied the right wing's 'purist' nonsense would have resulted in far worse. It's not like all choices are between good and bad ones; most of the time it's between bad, not as bad, really bad, really really bad, and outright stupid.

 

[MarathonMike]

So if we open our borders then how many people will be allowed to wander in? And, is the taxpayer expected to take care of them? Is there a limit?

Why should there be a limit? Liberals believe that America's resources are unlimited and tax revenue flows nonstop from a magic spring.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

what do liberals mean when they say our immigration system is broken?

Whether they know it or not, they mean the same thing that conservatives do: they think it's appropriate to delegate mercenaries to control the free movement of other people, but feel that those mercenaries are not acting in accordance with their personal preference. The fundamental question of whether or not they have a moral right to any say about the free movement of others is generally not considered, except by some full-on Libertarians.

 

[WillowTree]

So if we open our borders then how many people will be allowed to wander in? And, is the taxpayer expected to take care of them? Is there a limit?

Why should there be a limit? Liberals believe that America's resources are unlimited and tax revenue flows nonstop from a magic spring.

Well, until Trump gives a tax break then they shit their britches!

 

[Mac1958]

I am also quite worried about the new American leftwing totalitarianism.

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had.

Remember - the Regressive Left already knows it most likely has demographics on its side. Unless conservatives have some way of diluting that, we're headed in one direction. And one more thing: Even if we have the greatest economy in the history of historical histories, even if the fat kid from North Korea ends up washing dishes in the White House kitchen, it will not matter.

This is a cultural battle, the GOP is completely missing that, and as a result the Regressives are very confident. I suspect they're right in the long run.
.

 

[BlackSand]

So our immigration system is broken because we have one?

i even underlined the important part for you.

The part you underlined is exactly what the problem is.
We fail to enforce the laws already on the books ... And the best thing Progressives can come up with is getting rid of the law.

.

 

[Disir]

what do liberals mean when they say our immigration system is broken?

It means they can't get what they want under the laws on the books. BUT, here is the thing.....the moment that you hear economy then you know it's corporate crap dressed up to look liberal.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I am also quite worried about the new American leftwing totalitarianism.

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had...
.

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

 

[Circe]

This is a cultural battle, the GOP is completely missing that, and as a result the Regressives are very confident. I suspect they're right in the long run.
.

I simply cannot think why you suppose we are missing that. OF COURSE we know it's a cultural battle. We mean to win.

 

[Circe]

I am also quite worried about the new American leftwing totalitarianism.

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had...
.

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

Inspired.

But Trump is probably stepping out of it: that's why the fury and upset and confusion on the left. And the naked delight on the right. You don't think so?

Well, I guess you are saying that until you see real revolution: secession, coup d'état, all that -- it's not a true break in the shut-them-up system.

You could be right. Thoughtful post.

 

[Mac1958]

I am also quite worried about the new American leftwing totalitarianism.

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had...
.

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

I always point it out - the two ends of the spectrum are very similar in their behaviors. It's the political horseshoe:
.

 

[Mac1958]

This is a cultural battle, the GOP is completely missing that, and as a result the Regressives are very confident. I suspect they're right in the long run.

I simply cannot think why you suppose we are missing that. OF COURSE we know it's a cultural battle. We mean to win.

I've had multiple conversations with conservatives here who think that left-leaning moderates and minorities are going to swing towards the GOP in November because (a) the economy is doing well, (b) the stock market continues to go up, and (c) minority employment is strong.

When I tell them that's not the point, they think I'm nuts. They're missing it, because they're attaching their own priorities to those of others.
.

 

[BlackSand]

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

Amen Brian ...
Those that step out find a lot of virgin territory ... But it is kind of hard to lead someone to self-governance by its very nature.

.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I am also quite worried about the new American leftwing totalitarianism.

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had...
.

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

Inspired.

But Trump is probably stepping out of it: that's why the fury and upset and confusion on the left. And the naked delight on the right. You don't think so?

Well, I guess you are saying that until you see real revolution: secession, coup d'état, all that -- it's not a true break in the shut-them-up system.

You could be right. Thoughtful post.

Much obliged for the kind words. I don't presume a full understanding of the Trump dynamic, or the specific motivations and actions that brought this event to pass, but to my mind it seems that Trump's presidency, being excessively divisive, is a faithful expression of the aforementioned methodology. The right holds fast; the left rages, shouting from the rooftops; and the swing voters become increasingly inclined to suppose a need for a change.

Be it one term, two terms, or even multiple presidencies, once one foot carries the centralization baton as far as it can go, then the other foot is called upon to touch ground and go. The distance achieved by each is limited by the necessity to maintain the perceived legitimacy of the race. I've described this as a methodology, which denotes some level of intent, though I do not speculate as to what degree this is by design. In any case, even if only a subconscious manipulation of an organic phenomenon, the result is fairly apparent: a persistent widening of the chasm between the limits of the Constitution and the current state of law, and continued dissatisfaction displayed by the general populace. The 2016 election highlighted this latter observation most clearly, as the overwhelming majority of votes were cast against one of the candidates, rather than wholeheartedly for the other.

The previous statements notwithstanding, I do not mean to present the Constitution as a laudable standard, but merely as a serviceable point of reference for charting our course. Secession or coup are not advisable, to my mind, as they deeply prune but do not uproot. Revolution, yes, though primarily (ideally exclusively) a revolution of the cultural consciousness as it regards a commitment to the core principles of justice, freedom, and dare I say, basic human morality. A first step would be for the individual to closely evaluate their political position for inconsistencies with their own values.

I believe that this earnest effort alone would reveal that there is no place across the entire spectrum of right to left where an person may plant their flag without it falling squarely upon a contradiction. A true break would require courage, perception, and imagination beyond common occurrence, but it is far from impossible. As with any vice, it is preferable that the recovery be initiated before striking rock-bottom, but the collective decent yet continues, and (as the Trump phenomenon would suggest) the winds do not blow favorably.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Yes, a reasonable fear, indeed. This is the left/right march toward totalitarianism in full swing. Each party makes strides deeper into centralized control, then the voting population in the middle of the bell curve eventually swings the vote to the opposite party in hope of change, and that party does the same thing (though perhaps in other areas), bringing us deeper and deeper. All the while, the people see voting for the opposing party as a solution to the current administration, and thus vent the indignation that would otherwise lead to outright revolt. It's a brilliant system for tyrants, and works flawlessly. Until people can rise up above the trees to get a glimpse of the whole forest, they will continue to pave the way to their own despair by working within a purposefully futile system, instead of stepping out of it.

Amen Brian ...
Those that step out find a lot of virgin territory ... But it is kind of hard to lead someone to self-governance by its very nature.

.

My hope lies in the hero's journey; a there-and-back-again affair that sees humanity return to its natural state of freedom and self-governance, but matured and made capable by its experience in the wild. All we can do is steel ourselves to "be the change we wish to see" and trust that by our words and deeds, others will be inspired.

 

[Mac1958]

I believe that this earnest effort alone would reveal that there is no place across the entire spectrum of right to left where an person may plant their flag without it falling squarely upon a contradiction.

And a standing ovation for that.

The planting of a flag is an indication of abject intellectual capitulation. It indicates that an individual has chosen to simply choose a tribe and defend it, no matter what; to exist within an ideological, narcissistic "Safe Space" in which they are not required to be curious or pragmatic or creative or collaborative or to challenge their own views honestly.

It creates nothing but an increasing intellectual paralysis, and we're seeing that paralysis manifest on a national scale, as we speak, led by the flag-planters on both ends.
.

 

[JoeB131]

what do liberals mean when they say our immigration system is broken?

That it fails to take into account the reality of immigration.

The reality is, as long as we have jobs here that Americans don't want to do, people will come to take them.

 

[JoeB131]

And a standing ovation for that.

The planting of a flag is an indication of abject intellectual capitulation. It indicates that an individual has chosen to simply choose a tribe and defend it, no matter what; to exist within an ideological, narcissistic "Safe Space" in which they are not required to be curious or pragmatic or creative or collaborative or to challenge their own views honestly.

It creates nothing but an increasing intellectual paralysis, and we're seeing that paralysis manifest on a national scale, as we speak, led by the flag-planters on both ends.

again, works on the assumption that you aren't just as much a "flag-planter" as anyone else.

My view on immigration is pragmatic. We are going to have illegals here no matter what the law is. the only question is what do we do about it?

Do we keep trying to bail out the ocean with a teaspoon, or do we create policies that actually work.

 

[JoeB131]

I always point it out - the two ends of the spectrum are very similar in their behaviors. It's the political horseshoe:

Yes, your drawing has totally convinced me of the error of my ways! Clearly, until you did a drawing of it, we had no idea what was going on.

 

[JoeB131]

It's a reasonable fear. While I lean Left, my concern is that the response to Trump will be so powerful in the opposite direction that we'll see the illiberal authoritarians with more power than they've ever had.

Remember - the Regressive Left already knows it most likely has demographics on its side. Unless conservatives have some way of diluting that, we're headed in one direction. And one more thing: Even if we have the greatest economy in the history of historical histories, even if the fat kid from North Korea ends up washing dishes in the White House kitchen, it will not matter.

This is a cultural battle, the GOP is completely missing that, and as a result the Regressives are very confident. I suspect they're right in the long run.

Oh, do you ever get tired of being wrong.

The Right has been fighting a cultural battle for some time. Abortion, Gay rights, immigration, gun culture. They've found all sorts of ways to get working class white people to vote against their own economic interests since Nixon.

The reason they aren't making inroads with minorities is because most of their cultural war was based on stirring up fear of "the other". WHich worked just fine when white people were 80% of the electorate back in the 1970's. You could have an impeached president pardoned by the next guy, and the next guy could almost win because White People.

Except that the Republicans have only won the popular vote ONCE since 1988. And part of the reason for that was when Bush wasn't trying to scare the bejeebers out of us, he actually tried to make inroads to minorities and even proposed sensible immigration reform.

Well, his base was having NONE of that, and swung back in the other direction.