Racist groups vs Free Speech, i've converted...

[Slade3200]

Look up the 1989 Supreme Court decision "Texas vs. Johnson" in favor of "Young Communists" that affirmed their 1st Amendment right desecrate the flag in spite of laws that prohibited it in 48 states.. From what I can recall nobody on the right smashed windows or torched cars at the time. You gotta scratch your head when Charlottesville is the top story when a freaking Sanders democrat tried to murder an entire republican baseball team barely two months ago.

That shooting dominated the headlines for a while after it happened... did it not?

 

[PredFan]

No conundrum at all. Let people speak. If we can't beat people in the arena of ideas, we don't deserve to.

Freedom of expression is about speech we DON'T like, not speech we DO like.
.

End of thread.

 

[Slade3200]

Why should he be "phased' by a bigoted prejudiced and hateful false image of him.

He should ignore it.

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

Racists have a right to free speech - but they need to once again be subdued and pushed back into their peckerwood holes.

‘MAKE RACISTS AFRAID AGAIN’

It is absolutely incredible what is happening in this country. I never thought we would ever see magazine covers like that about our POTUS. He seems unphased... It really is unbelievable

Its obviously perpetuated by his words and actions. That is obvious when you see his own supporters speaking out against him. You can't blame the leftist msm when that happens. But his ego is to big to recognize that and clarify. He seems to thrive off the chaos

 

[The Original Tree]

I don't think there is enough evidence to convict you of that.

You were arguing that people who feel offended by certain public monuments should have the right to remove them.

That's false.

They have the right to petition they be removed by following due process procedures to have them removed.

That means things like public hearings & voting on it, not arbitrarily removing statues in the dead of night to circumvent due process, or taking the law in to their own hands and maliciously vandalizing them.

You can't just remove a Public statue without Due Process.

You cannot deprive a private or public group of property without due process.

And by Due Process, that means some kind of vote and public hearing needs to be conducted first.

Why is that so hard to understand?


People have a right to erect or or take down as a group community, public or private anything they want as long as they abide by the law when doing so.

You can't just arbitrarily take down a statue in the dead of night.

Take them down...I don't give a Fuck but follow our laws and jump through the hoops of due process doing it. If it is a Public Statue, the Public needs to vote to take it down since they were levied with taxes tonerect it.

If it's a National Monument, there needs to be a National vote on such a monument to take it down as it was erected with Federal Funds.

That's where I object. That and the fact that most of the idiots calling for this don't know what the Hell they are doing and most of this is nothing but a political dog and pony show dreamed
Up by The Democrat Party as a wedge issue for 2018.

So quit being Fascists. Follow our laws, and if you lose STFU and go home.

Whats your deal man? I've only advocated for due process and have not suggested otherwise.

 

[OKTexas]

"Those who oppose those principals are un-American and void their rights under those principals."

And by the way, where is this rule written, please?
.

Specifically in 'the Rights of Man and of the Citizen'. But the idea that anyone's rights are limited to the point that infringe upon the rights of another is a well accepted concept in American philosophy and law. Preaching the infringment of other peoples rights should equally be considered to unaccepted.

Of course forcing someone to create and decorate a cake that they disagree with, by force of law, is not an infringement on their rights, correct?


.

There is no such thing as either an unalienable or Constitutional right to do business. It requires a business license and is a privilege, not a right.

Funny I've had a couple of businesses and had nothing but a sales tax number. I guess the rights to LIFE, LIBERTY and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS only applies if you're independently wealthy and don't have to work to provide for your family. Business licenses are nothing more than a ploy to control people and pick their pockets by regressive governments.


.

Running a business is a privilege, not a right. Any business must meet the requirements set by government.

If you thought that the right to liberty means that you have absolute freedom to do anything you want, you are sadly mistaken.

That's where you're wrong, I have a right to enter into a contract for my labor with anyone I chose, with any conditions I and the other party agree to. States are expressly prohibited by the Constitution from passing laws interfering with the obligations of that contract. See Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1.


.

 

[Slade3200]

I don't think there is enough evidence to convict you of that.

You were arguing that people who feel offended by certain public monuments should have the right to remove them.

That's false.

They have the right to petition they be removed by following due process procedures to have them removed.

That means things like public hearings & voting on it, not arbitrarily removing statues in the dead of night to circumvent due process.

You can't just remove a
Public statue without Due Process.

You cannot deprive a private or public group of property without due process.

And by Due Process, that means some kind of vote and public hearing needs to be conducted first.

Why is that so hard to understand?


People have a right to erect or or take down as a group community, public or private anything they want as long as they abide by the law when doing so.

You can't just arbitrarily take down a statue in the dead of night.

Take them down...I don't give a Fuck but follow our laws and jump through the hoops of due process doing it. If it is a Public Statue, the Public needs to vote to take it down since they were levied with taxes tonerect it.

If it's a National Monument, there needs to be a National vote on such a monument to take it down as it was erected with Federal Funds.

That's where I object. That and the fact that most of the idiots calling for this don't know what the Hell they are doing and most of this is nothing but a political dog and pony show dreamed
Up by The Democrat Party as a wedge issue for 2018.

So quit being Fascists. Follow our laws, and if you lose STFU and go home.

Whats your deal man? I've only advocated for due process and have not suggested otherwise.

Where did I say the people had the right to remove them... Quote me. Cause I can show you half a dozen quotes of me supporting due process

 

[monkeytrots]

>> I wonder why it only regressive who hear these dog whistles?

Regressives - excellent term. Precise, descriptive, and accurate. Much better than left, right, etc. And it's a bit of schadenfreude as well - since they prefer to think of themselves as 'progressives' - which they are not in the least.

 

[The Original Tree]

Actually CNN and the Fake News kinda ignored it and was promoting 24-7 Fake Russia Russia Russia

Look up the 1989 Supreme Court decision "Texas vs. Johnson" in favor of "Young Communists" that affirmed their 1st Amendment right desecrate the flag in spite of laws that prohibited it in 48 states.. From what I can recall nobody on the right smashed windows or torched cars at the time. You gotta scratch your head when Charlottesville is the top story when a freaking Sanders democrat tried to murder an entire republican baseball team barely two months ago.

That shooting dominated the headlines for a while after it happened... did it not?

 

[Slade3200]

Actually CNN and the Fake News kinda ignored it and was promoting 24-7 Fake Russia Russia Russia

Look up the 1989 Supreme Court decision "Texas vs. Johnson" in favor of "Young Communists" that affirmed their 1st Amendment right desecrate the flag in spite of laws that prohibited it in 48 states.. From what I can recall nobody on the right smashed windows or torched cars at the time. You gotta scratch your head when Charlottesville is the top story when a freaking Sanders democrat tried to murder an entire republican baseball team barely two months ago.

That shooting dominated the headlines for a while after it happened... did it not?

Really? How much CNN do you watch? Which other news networks do you watch?

 

[The Original Tree]

No mention of Due Process here. Lots of "hurt feelings" which is completely subjective.

The questions you posed need to be answered by the voters not by George Soros Funded Social agitators.

Do you know why there are statues of General Lee in both the North and South?

Of source you don't cuz.. Talking Points!

Lee did not want to fight for The Union because he did not want to fight against his neighbors in his own state.

He and his wife ran a school for black children teaching reading and writing right out of their home in direct violation of laws passed by Democrats outlawing such schools and dared anyone to come stop him.

He also organized and paid for slaves before during and after the war to be relocated to Liberia, so you could legitimately argue that Lee Founded Liberia.

Lastly, Lee had the materials and manpower to wage war for another 2-5 years, but for the good of the country decided to end the war, and then spent the rest of his life being an activist for reconciliation.

But by All Means Let's Tear down his statues because The Democrats are desperate to take back The House and Senate and have no fucking message at all for The American People but Divide and Conquor and Kill The President.

Fucking Ignorant Savages!

Funny how the Left is trying to erase their own racist history so people won't recognize their current racist policies.

Taking down statues isn't erasing anything, it is stopping the glorification and celebration of these figures in public spaces. The "erase history" talking point is so weak and overused.

You still miss the point. A statue is a symbol and a monument, it is not a biography about every aspect of a persons life. Which is why the argument about Washington and Jefferson being slave owners is not a strong one. There are simple questions that need to be asked... What does this statue stand for? Who is it celebrating or symbolizing? If the answer is that it is a symbol of racism and confederate values then take that fucker down. If it is part of a better story and that is accurately communicated then keep it. If there is a conflict in how it is interpreted then put it in a museum so the full story can be told. I know a little about Lee and I know that he did some good things for his community before and after the war... The question is, is a statue of him in a park symbolizing a racist confederate value or a historical figure?

 

[AsianTrumpSupporter]

I'm in favor of censorship so long as I'm in charge of deciding what speech to censor. Otherwise, fuck censorship.

 

[bripat9643]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

Racists have a right to free speech - but they need to once again be subdued and pushed back into their peckerwood holes.

‘MAKE RACISTS AFRAID AGAIN’

It is absolutely incredible what is happening in this country. I never thought we would ever see magazine covers like that about our POTUS. He seems unphased... It really is unbelievable

Yes, it's hard to believe that the press has become such shameless douche bags.

 

[Slade3200]

No mention of Due Process here. Lots of "hurt feelings" which is completely subjective.

The questions you posed need to be answered by the voters not by George Soros Funded Social agitators.

Do you know why there are statues of General Lee in both the North and South?

Of source you don't cuz.. Talking Points!

Lee did not want to fight for The Union because he did not want to fight against his neighbors in his own state.

He and his wife ran a school for black children teaching reading and writing right out of their home in direct violation of laws passed by Democrats outlawing such schools and dared anyone to come stop him.

He also organized and paid for slaves before during and after the war to be relocated to Liberia, so you could legitimately argue that Lee Founded Liberia.

Lastly, Lee had the materials and manpower to wage war for another 2-5 years, but for the good of the country decided to end the war, and then spent the rest of his life being an activist for reconciliation.

But by All Means Let's Tear down his statues because The Democrats are desperate to take back The House and Senate and have no fucking message at all for The American People but Divide and Conquor and Kill The President.

Fucking Ignorant Savages!

Funny how the Left is trying to erase their own racist history so people won't recognize their current racist policies.

Taking down statues isn't erasing anything, it is stopping the glorification and celebration of these figures in public spaces. The "erase history" talking point is so weak and overused.

You still miss the point. A statue is a symbol and a monument, it is not a biography about every aspect of a persons life. Which is why the argument about Washington and Jefferson being slave owners is not a strong one. There are simple questions that need to be asked... What does this statue stand for? Who is it celebrating or symbolizing? If the answer is that it is a symbol of racism and confederate values then take that fucker down. If it is part of a better story and that is accurately communicated then keep it. If there is a conflict in how it is interpreted then put it in a museum so the full story can be told. I know a little about Lee and I know that he did some good things for his community before and after the war... The question is, is a statue of him in a park symbolizing a racist confederate value or a historical figure?

So you pick one statement out of the dozens that i've posted and since it doesn't say anything about due process then you think that proves your point? Are you feeling ok? How about we refer to my OP that stated very clearly that:
"I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests."

Everything that I am speaking to is civil discourse to resolve problems. You have some serious comprehension problems. How about you tone down the judgement and assumptions and try listening with an open mind.

 

[Flash]

"Witches against White Supremacy" LOL!

Can these Alt Left morons be any more bat shit crazy?



View attachment 144762

They think they're witches, so probably not.

Ironically nazis are huge on witchcraft

These Moon Bats are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the chandelier.

 

[Tresha91203]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

The First Amendment exists to protect unpopular speech, as popular speech obviously needs no such protections. Regarding your comparison to Muslim terrorist recruitment, that's a little different. Muslims terrorists are actually harming and killing people. If there is ample evidence that someone is planning an attack that isn't free speech. However, someone just being affiliated with or conversing with a radical element shouldn't necessarily be illegal. With the exception of that tard in Charlottesville with the car, the KKK and neo-Nazis and those other white supremacists jagoffs haven't done lynchings and shit like that in decades. They're basically neutered organizations, who quite frankly, if everyone would simply ignore and stop confronting and giving them all of this media coverage would go back into the holes they crawled out of.

Are you one of the dumbasses who ignores that Trump is emboldening and encouraging white nationalist racists with his words and dog whistles? Sounds like it...

I wonder why it only regressive who hear these dog whistles? BOW WOW LMAO


.

They are exactly like those superchristians who see demons behind every rock and run around rebuking anything and everything they disagree.

 

[The Original Tree]

Lol.

Ok
Ok

I will say this. I'd rather debate you than some of the other loons on here.

At least you rationalize your arguments.

A lot of what I do is try to challenge someone's logic to see if they are really thinking about the issues and have a valid stance.

I use some rhetorical tools to do that. Fair or unfair I usually get pretty good information drawn out of people.

No mention of Due Process here. Lots of "hurt feelings" which is completely subjective.

The questions you posed need to be answered by the voters not by George Soros Funded Social agitators.

Do you know why there are statues of General Lee in both the North and South?

Of source you don't cuz.. Talking Points!

Lee did not want to fight for The Union because he did not want to fight against his neighbors in his own state.

He and his wife ran a school for black children teaching reading and writing right out of their home in direct violation of laws passed by Democrats outlawing such schools and dared anyone to come stop him.

He also organized and paid for slaves before during and after the war to be relocated to Liberia, so you could legitimately argue that Lee Founded Liberia.

Lastly, Lee had the materials and manpower to wage war for another 2-5 years, but for the good of the country decided to end the war, and then spent the rest of his life being an activist for reconciliation.

But by All Means Let's Tear down his statues because The Democrats are desperate to take back The House and Senate and have no fucking message at all for The American People but Divide and Conquor and Kill The President.

Fucking Ignorant Savages!

Funny how the Left is trying to erase their own racist history so people won't recognize their current racist policies.

Taking down statues isn't erasing anything, it is stopping the glorification and celebration of these figures in public spaces. The "erase history" talking point is so weak and overused.

You still miss the point. A statue is a symbol and a monument, it is not a biography about every aspect of a persons life. Which is why the argument about Washington and Jefferson being slave owners is not a strong one. There are simple questions that need to be asked... What does this statue stand for? Who is it celebrating or symbolizing? If the answer is that it is a symbol of racism and confederate values then take that fucker down. If it is part of a better story and that is accurately communicated then keep it. If there is a conflict in how it is interpreted then put it in a museum so the full story can be told. I know a little about Lee and I know that he did some good things for his community before and after the war... The question is, is a statue of him in a park symbolizing a racist confederate value or a historical figure?

So you pick one statement out of the dozens that i've posted and since it doesn't say anything about due process then you think that proves your point? Are you feeling ok? How about we refer to my OP that stated very clearly that:
"I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests."

Everything that I am speaking to is civil discourse to resolve problems. You have some serious comprehension problems. How about you tone down the judgement and assumptions and try listening with an open mind.

 

[jillian]

As many other fellow posters, I too face that dilemma as to whether fully allow KKK members, WS and neo-Nazis to openly spew their hatred or opt to stop their Constitution-allowed speech.

It is a tough conundrum. The problem rests with how that hate speech manages to recruit gullible and somewhat ignorant young people to join in that hate-filled ideology.

The best comparison I can make is whether we would opt to STOP radical Muslims to recruit disenfranchised young people to become terrorists for a dubious cause....After all, we sometime monitor what may go on in a Mosque to intervene if that environment is spewing hate filled and violent behaviors......

We all must make a choice regarding our love of free expression, and our desire to be safe from the spreading of more hatred.

hate speech is still constitutionally protected.

but that doesn't mean you can't call them losers.

the proper response is to counter what the walking failures say with reality and by standing up to the losers.

 

[jillian]

"Witches against White Supremacy" LOL!

Can these Alt Left morons be any more bat shit crazy?



View attachment 144762

They think they're witches, so probably not.

Ironically nazis are huge on witchcraft

These Moon Bats are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the chandelier.

you aren't smart enough to comment on anyone else's intellect.

thanks.

 

[Slade3200]

Lol.

Ok
Ok

I will say this. I'd rather debate you than some of the other loons on here.

At least you rationalize your arguments.

A lot of what I do is try to challenge someone's logic to see if they are really thinking about the issues and have a valid stance.

I use some rhetorical tools to do that. fair or unfair usually get pretty good information drawn out.

No mention of Due Process here. Lots of "hurt feelings" which is completely subjective.

The questions you posed need to be answered by the voters not by George Soros Funded Social agitators.

Do you know why there are statues of General Lee in both the North and South?

Of source you don't cuz.. Talking Points!

Lee did not want to fight for The Union because he did not want to fight against his neighbors in his own state.

He and his wife ran a school for black children teaching reading and writing right out of their home in direct violation of laws passed by Democrats outlawing such schools and dared anyone to come stop him.

He also organized and paid for slaves before during and after the war to be relocated to Liberia, so you could legitimately argue that Lee Founded Liberia.

Lastly, Lee had the materials and manpower to wage war for another 2-5 years, but for the good of the country decided to end the war, and then spent the rest of his life being an activist for reconciliation.

But by All Means Let's Tear down his statues because The Democrats are desperate to take back The House and Senate and have no fucking message at all for The American People but Divide and Conquor and Kill The President.

Fucking Ignorant Savages!

Taking down statues isn't erasing anything, it is stopping the glorification and celebration of these figures in public spaces. The "erase history" talking point is so weak and overused.

You still miss the point. A statue is a symbol and a monument, it is not a biography about every aspect of a persons life. Which is why the argument about Washington and Jefferson being slave owners is not a strong one. There are simple questions that need to be asked... What does this statue stand for? Who is it celebrating or symbolizing? If the answer is that it is a symbol of racism and confederate values then take that fucker down. If it is part of a better story and that is accurately communicated then keep it. If there is a conflict in how it is interpreted then put it in a museum so the full story can be told. I know a little about Lee and I know that he did some good things for his community before and after the war... The question is, is a statue of him in a park symbolizing a racist confederate value or a historical figure?

So you pick one statement out of the dozens that i've posted and since it doesn't say anything about due process then you think that proves your point? Are you feeling ok? How about we refer to my OP that stated very clearly that:
"I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests."

Everything that I am speaking to is civil discourse to resolve problems. You have some serious comprehension problems. How about you tone down the judgement and assumptions and try listening with an open mind.

Im guilty of playing devils advocate at times, just to challenge people... especially when I think people are talking out of their ass. Thanks for the acknowledgment. See you at the next battle

 

[Flash]

Adolf Trump tweeted that he applauds those who are speaking out against hate and bigotry. Well, Trump, someone has to.

The hate and bigotry is coming from the Alt Left. The Black Lives Matter assholes that burned downed neighborhoods, rioted, looted and attacked police. The stupid Pink Pussy Hat wearing derange butthurt Moon Bats that rioted when Trump was elected. The assholes on campuses that shut down free speech. The filthy ass Orwellian shitheads that are trying to erase history. The ANTIFA Brownshirts that were trying to intimidate and attack Americans. Those ate the hate mongers in this country.

You stupid Moon Bats are always confused about things like this. Being for the enforcement of American immigration laws, being against Islamic terrorism, being against the economically disastrous welfare state and being for limited government, limited taxation and personal responsibility is not hate and bigotry.

The Alt Left trying to define good sound Conservative principles as fascism just shows what demented hate mongering assholes they are..