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The libs here will likely not read beyond the headline. They abhor disturbing facts.So no difference in their support of the South's states right to segregate.
Was he not the one who made MLK a national holiday? There's that.
Did Ronald Reagan "Torture" Blacks? - Capitalism Magazine
Barry Goldwater was an idiot. He still is and will be. He got whipped because he did not go along with the consensus on civil rights. But we southerners are still racist?
No. In fact, more black people live here in the south than any other geographical region in America.
Nearly 56.5% of the entire black population in America lives here. If we were racist, you think we'd be less tolerant to them living here, right? But as it stands, that population distribution speaks for itself.
http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-06.pdf
So the sum total of your evidence that the Democratic Party of today is no different than the conservative Southern wing of the Democratic Party of 50 years ago is a small group of nuts in one county in Ohio?
Do you consider that a valid method with which to paint the other 99.9% of Democrats?
You seem to agree with the stereotypes they place on whites, and on blacks. So first you need to consider how they aren't racist to begin with.
You can start with Mia Love, when liberals referred to her as a "house ******."
You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent. Senator Joe Biden
Youd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, theyd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva. Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
White Supremacist David Duke endorses candidate Barron in New York's Democratic primaries:
David Duke endorses leading New York Democrat | The Daily Caller
California Teacher's Union endorses a known racist Ron Gochez for City Council
LA?s Largest Teachers? Union Endorses Racist Anti-Semite for City Council | FrontPage Magazine
Cornel West and Janeane Garafalo Herman Cain is a Racist, Uncle Tom
Michael Moore If you are over 29 and voted against Obama, you are racist.
Charles Schumer Republicans have 20 ways to stop the minority vote
Jimmy Carter Gingrich is Racist
James Clyburn Gingrich Wants Poor People To Be Servants (Listen closely to the last line of the clip where he changes it from poor to African-Americans.)
Chris Matthews Gingrich Pronounced Juan Williams Name Racist (Makes the entire GOP field look like they are a bunch of racists.)
NBC News Romney Giving $50 To An Unemployed Woman Is Racist.
I think I just about covered it.
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
Frederick Douglass
"Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"
You seem to agree with the stereotypes they place on whites, and on blacks. So first you need to consider how they aren't racist to begin with.
You can start with Mia Love, when liberals referred to her as a "house ******."
You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent. Senator Joe Biden
Youd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, theyd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva. Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
White Supremacist David Duke endorses candidate Barron in New York's Democratic primaries:
David Duke endorses leading New York Democrat | The Daily Caller
California Teacher's Union endorses a known racist Ron Gochez for City Council
LA?s Largest Teachers? Union Endorses Racist Anti-Semite for City Council | FrontPage Magazine
Cornel West and Janeane Garafalo Herman Cain is a Racist, Uncle Tom
Michael Moore If you are over 29 and voted against Obama, you are racist.
Charles Schumer Republicans have 20 ways to stop the minority vote
Jimmy Carter Gingrich is Racist
James Clyburn Gingrich Wants Poor People To Be Servants (Listen closely to the last line of the clip where he changes it from poor to African-Americans.)
Chris Matthews Gingrich Pronounced Juan Williams Name Racist (Makes the entire GOP field look like they are a bunch of racists.)
NBC News Romney Giving $50 To An Unemployed Woman Is Racist.
I think I just about covered it.
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
If only you lived by your own set of standards you may be credible. This thread has simply turned into a hate fest. The history if the Democrat party speaks for itself. The party hasn't closed down then reopened as something else, it's the same party that has continued since its founding. The Republican party was founded as anti-slavery party, and has fought for civil rights for most of its history out of principal, not for political advantage as the Democrats sudden so-called conversion. Liberal policies have surely been a detriment to minorities in that they create a dependency on government that will eventually end up with the destruction of our country as we know it. Slavery to the federal government for all should be the liberal slogan, and Republicans arent much better these days. Liberal know it alls have screwed up the natural order of things now look at us
Frederick Douglass
"Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"
You seem to agree with the stereotypes they place on whites, and on blacks. So first you need to consider how they aren't racist to begin with.
You can start with Mia Love, when liberals referred to her as a "house ******."
You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent. Senator Joe Biden
Youd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, theyd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva. Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
White Supremacist David Duke endorses candidate Barron in New York's Democratic primaries:
David Duke endorses leading New York Democrat | The Daily Caller
California Teacher's Union endorses a known racist Ron Gochez for City Council
LA?s Largest Teachers? Union Endorses Racist Anti-Semite for City Council | FrontPage Magazine
Cornel West and Janeane Garafalo Herman Cain is a Racist, Uncle Tom
Michael Moore If you are over 29 and voted against Obama, you are racist.
Charles Schumer Republicans have 20 ways to stop the minority vote
Jimmy Carter Gingrich is Racist
James Clyburn Gingrich Wants Poor People To Be Servants (Listen closely to the last line of the clip where he changes it from poor to African-Americans.)
Chris Matthews Gingrich Pronounced Juan Williams Name Racist (Makes the entire GOP field look like they are a bunch of racists.)
NBC News Romney Giving $50 To An Unemployed Woman Is Racist.
I think I just about covered it.
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
If only you lived by your own set of standards you may be credible. This thread has simply turned into a hate fest. The history if the Democrat party speaks for itself. The party hasn't closed down then reopened as something else, it's the same party that has continued since its founding. The Republican party was founded as anti-slavery party, and has fought for civil rights for most of its history out of principal, not for political advantage as the Democrats sudden so-called conversion. Liberal policies have surely been a detriment to minorities in that they create a dependency on government that will eventually end up with the destruction of our country as we know it. Slavery to the federal government for all should be the liberal slogan, and Republicans arent much better these days. Liberal know it alls have screwed up the natural order of things now look at us
Frederick Douglass
"Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"
Democrats have had a shameful record vis-a-vis racism until fifty or sixty years ago, but Liberals have consistently led the fight against racism. Conservatives, however are always in the vanguard defending racism and inequality. Would you care to make a distinction, as you post clearly does not, between political parties and political ideologies?I hear of Liberal Democrats championing the causes of racial and gender equality in America today, while admirable, they have ignored their own history. Now, for a little history lesson. Let's do a little research shall we? Let us see who has been more detrimental to the causes of equality. Pay attention students, there will be a quiz at the end of this essay!
During the 1860s, Southern Democrats continually advocated the use of slavery. It took a Republican to slay these racial demons with the 13th Amendment. A major advocate of this being Frederick Douglass, a black Republican abolitionist, diplomat and former slave from Maryland.
During Antebellum, racial equality was continually hampered even after the 13th Amendment's passage; by Democrats who were taking ever increasing majorities in local, state and federal offices, especially during the 1880's. This eventually led to the instatement the Jim Crow laws. In 1875, attempts were made by Republicans to break Jim Crow, it was however, thwarted by Democrats. It was during this time the Democratic Party gave birth to the KKK.
For nearly a century, Jim Crow ruled over the land with an iron fist. Nary a black man anywhere could be treated equally, because of the racial hatred of the Democratic Party. These laws were finally ended by the Supreme Court Decision of 1954, Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka. Ironically, in 1963, it was Democrats who launched major opposition to the Equal Pay Act, which effectively ended the gender pay disparity in the workplace.
In 1964, Democrats were once again fighting to stop racial equality in the states. They fought tooth and nail against the Civil Rights act of 1964, with a former Klansman leading the charge. As a Democratic Senator Richard Russell from Georgia put it: "We will resist to the bitter end any measure or any movement which would have a tendency to bring about social equality and intermingling and amalgamation of the races in our (Southern) states."
Then there was the famous Democratic Senator Strom Thurmond from South Carolina who was even moreso candid than Russell in his opposition, stating that "This so-called Civil Rights Proposals, which the President has sent to Capitol Hill for enactment into law, are unconstitutional, unnecessary, unwise and extend beyond the realm of reason. This is the worst civil-rights package ever presented to the Congress and is reminiscent of the Reconstruction proposals and actions of the radical Republican Congress."
For 57 days they filibustered the bill, until Senator Everett Dirksen (R-IL) shamed them into relenting. The Bill was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson in the Summer of 1964. The next year, the same Congress passed the Voting Rights Act.
Not long after that, Southern Democrats began defecting to the Republican Party, after the Democratic Party had shifted its focus towards its more moderate voting bloc to the north, and thusly polluting it for generations to come with their racial pragmatism.
Where were Democrats? I thought they claimed to be the party of equality? Yet history is riddled with examples of their racial hatred towards African Americans. It's sad in a way to think how they have warped and twisted their minds into believing the current platforms in place today, kept ignorant of the history that precedes the Democratic Party.
Here's my question, which party has stood for equality over the past 150 years? How does this meld with the current platforms Liberal Democrats advocate today? I leave that for you to decide.
If you could give examples of stalwart Conservatives who fought racism, I'd be very curious to see such a list. For you see, political parties change their ideologies over time while the foundational principles of political ideology remain steadfast. No Conservative ever advocated for minority rights. No Conservative ever advocated for expanded rights for women or children or homosexuals or African Americans or workers or the environment.
Over the years, various Republicans and Democrats have provided such leadership, but they were nowhere near what the contemporary Conservative recognizes as his own.
You ask which party has stood for equality over the past 150 years? I ask you what political ideology has stood for equality? Here are some things to contemplate: What is the Conservative stance on marriage equality? What is the Conservative stance on pay equity? What is the Conservative stance on worker's rights? What is the Conservative stance on immigration? And how do those various stances serve equality for minorities?
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
If only you lived by your own set of standards you may be credible. This thread has simply turned into a hate fest. The history if the Democrat party speaks for itself. The party hasn't closed down then reopened as something else, it's the same party that has continued since its founding. The Republican party was founded as anti-slavery party, and has fought for civil rights for most of its history out of principal, not for political advantage as the Democrats sudden so-called conversion. Liberal policies have surely been a detriment to minorities in that they create a dependency on government that will eventually end up with the destruction of our country as we know it. Slavery to the federal government for all should be the liberal slogan, and Republicans arent much better these days. Liberal know it alls have screwed up the natural order of things now look at us
Frederick Douglass
"Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"
You're wrong. You really think that when Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted that the Democratic Party would LOSE the South in the wake of the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
he was talking about some sort of political GAIN??? Are you mentally retarded?
you quoted from Martin Luther King, Sr.'s bio (MLK's dad) , not Martin Luther King, Jr.'s.Anyone with 1/2 a brain cell knows that yesteryear's Dixiecrat is today's Republican.
Hell, MLK was a Republican.
The tables have turned politically and racially.
MLK was not a Republican. Anyone with half a brain could do the research.
Bless your heart.
In October 1960, when Martin Luther King, Jr. was arrested at a peaceful sit-in in Atlanta, Robert Kennedy telephoned the judge and helped secure King's release. Although King, Sr. had previously opposed Kennedy because he was a Catholic,[citation needed] he expressed his appreciation for these calls and switched his support to Kennedy. At this time, King, Sr. had been a lifelong registered Republican, and had endorsed Republican Richard Nixon.
Democrats have had a shameful record vis-a-vis racism until fifty or sixty years ago, but Liberals have consistently led the fight against racism. Conservatives, however are always in the vanguard defending racism and inequality. Would you care to make a distinction, as you post clearly does not, between political parties and political ideologies?I hear of Liberal Democrats championing the causes of racial and gender equality in America today, while admirable, they have ignored their own history. Now, for a little history lesson. Let's do a little research shall we? Let us see who has been more detrimental to the causes of equality. Pay attention students, there will be a quiz at the end of this essay!
During the 1860s, Southern Democrats continually advocated the use of slavery. It took a Republican to slay these racial demons with the 13th Amendment. A major advocate of this being Frederick Douglass, a black Republican abolitionist, diplomat and former slave from Maryland.
During Antebellum, racial equality was continually hampered even after the 13th Amendment's passage; by Democrats who were taking ever increasing majorities in local, state and federal offices, especially during the 1880's. This eventually led to the instatement the Jim Crow laws. In 1875, attempts were made by Republicans to break Jim Crow, it was however, thwarted by Democrats. It was during this time the Democratic Party gave birth to the KKK.
For nearly a century, Jim Crow ruled over the land with an iron fist. Nary a black man anywhere could be treated equally, because of the racial hatred of the Democratic Party. These laws were finally ended by the Supreme Court Decision of 1954, Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka. Ironically, in 1963, it was Democrats who launched major opposition to the Equal Pay Act, which effectively ended the gender pay disparity in the workplace.
In 1964, Democrats were once again fighting to stop racial equality in the states. They fought tooth and nail against the Civil Rights act of 1964, with a former Klansman leading the charge. As a Democratic Senator Richard Russell from Georgia put it: "We will resist to the bitter end any measure or any movement which would have a tendency to bring about social equality and intermingling and amalgamation of the races in our (Southern) states."
Then there was the famous Democratic Senator Strom Thurmond from South Carolina who was even moreso candid than Russell in his opposition, stating that "This so-called Civil Rights Proposals, which the President has sent to Capitol Hill for enactment into law, are unconstitutional, unnecessary, unwise and extend beyond the realm of reason. This is the worst civil-rights package ever presented to the Congress and is reminiscent of the Reconstruction proposals and actions of the radical Republican Congress."
For 57 days they filibustered the bill, until Senator Everett Dirksen (R-IL) shamed them into relenting. The Bill was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson in the Summer of 1964. The next year, the same Congress passed the Voting Rights Act.
Not long after that, Southern Democrats began defecting to the Republican Party, after the Democratic Party had shifted its focus towards its more moderate voting bloc to the north, and thusly polluting it for generations to come with their racial pragmatism.
Where were Democrats? I thought they claimed to be the party of equality? Yet history is riddled with examples of their racial hatred towards African Americans. It's sad in a way to think how they have warped and twisted their minds into believing the current platforms in place today, kept ignorant of the history that precedes the Democratic Party.
Here's my question, which party has stood for equality over the past 150 years? How does this meld with the current platforms Liberal Democrats advocate today? I leave that for you to decide.
If you could give examples of stalwart Conservatives who fought racism, I'd be very curious to see such a list. For you see, political parties change their ideologies over time while the foundational principles of political ideology remain steadfast. No Conservative ever advocated for minority rights. No Conservative ever advocated for expanded rights for women or children or homosexuals or African Americans or workers or the environment.
Over the years, various Republicans and Democrats have provided such leadership, but they were nowhere near what the contemporary Conservative recognizes as his own.
You ask which party has stood for equality over the past 150 years? I ask you what political ideology has stood for equality? Here are some things to contemplate: What is the Conservative stance on marriage equality? What is the Conservative stance on pay equity? What is the Conservative stance on worker's rights? What is the Conservative stance on immigration? And how do those various stances serve equality for minorities?
Today TR and IKE would each be a RINO and Strom Thurmond (before 1964) a leader of the Republican Party. This thread makes anyone who has read American History smile. Only a complete ignoramus would take this thread seriously,
If only you lived by your own set of standards you may be credible. This thread has simply turned into a hate fest. The history if the Democrat party speaks for itself. The party hasn't closed down then reopened as something else, it's the same party that has continued since its founding. The Republican party was founded as anti-slavery party, and has fought for civil rights for most of its history out of principal, not for political advantage as the Democrats sudden so-called conversion. Liberal policies have surely been a detriment to minorities in that they create a dependency on government that will eventually end up with the destruction of our country as we know it. Slavery to the federal government for all should be the liberal slogan, and Republicans arent much better these days. Liberal know it alls have screwed up the natural order of things now look at us
You're wrong. You really think that when Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted that the Democratic Party would LOSE the South in the wake of the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
he was talking about some sort of political GAIN??? Are you mentally retarded?
Yes....LBJ was a strategic thinker and he always operated that way. What they lost in the south they gain elsewhere
Like Jake said, and with whom I agree with partially, is that you must inherit your history, racism and all.
How does that work? If, hypothetically, your grandfather happened to be a bank robber, and your father happened to be a wife beater,
how exactly would your inheritance of that manifest itself??
You seem to agree with the stereotypes they place on whites, and on blacks. So first you need to consider how they aren't racist to begin with.
You can start with Mia Love, when liberals referred to her as a "house ******."
You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent. Senator Joe Biden
Youd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, theyd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva. Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
White Supremacist David Duke endorses candidate Barron in New York's Democratic primaries:
David Duke endorses leading New York Democrat | The Daily Caller
California Teacher's Union endorses a known racist Ron Gochez for City Council
LA?s Largest Teachers? Union Endorses Racist Anti-Semite for City Council | FrontPage Magazine
Cornel West and Janeane Garafalo Herman Cain is a Racist, Uncle Tom
Michael Moore If you are over 29 and voted against Obama, you are racist.
Charles Schumer Republicans have 20 ways to stop the minority vote
Jimmy Carter Gingrich is Racist
James Clyburn Gingrich Wants Poor People To Be Servants (Listen closely to the last line of the clip where he changes it from poor to African-Americans.)
Chris Matthews Gingrich Pronounced Juan Williams Name Racist (Makes the entire GOP field look like they are a bunch of racists.)
NBC News Romney Giving $50 To An Unemployed Woman Is Racist.
I think I just about covered it.
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
You seem not to mind generalizing the entire Republican Party as racist. I proved to you through history, and in my OP why Democrats are inherently racist. You can see the post above to prove why.
!
So setting aside the simple fact that half of your examples aren't even racism, my question to you is,
do you believe that you have provided enough examples to prove that the modern Democratic Party is in fact racist?
Do you believe you logically generalize about the entire national party based on that many examples?
You seem not to mind generalizing the entire Republican Party as racist. I proved to you through history, and in my OP why Democrats are inherently racist. You can see the post above to prove why.
!
So you're saying that since some people generalize about the GOP as being racist,
and since you consider that a valid generalization,
you believe that your generalizations about the Democratic Party are also valid.
lol, good one.
If only you lived by your own set of standards you may be credible. This thread has simply turned into a hate fest. The history if the Democrat party speaks for itself. The party hasn't closed down then reopened as something else, it's the same party that has continued since its founding. The Republican party was founded as anti-slavery party, and has fought for civil rights for most of its history out of principal, not for political advantage as the Democrats sudden so-called conversion. Liberal policies have surely been a detriment to minorities in that they create a dependency on government that will eventually end up with the destruction of our country as we know it. Slavery to the federal government for all should be the liberal slogan, and Republicans arent much better these days. Liberal know it alls have screwed up the natural order of things now look at us
You're wrong. You really think that when Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted that the Democratic Party would LOSE the South in the wake of the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
he was talking about some sort of political GAIN??? Are you mentally retarded?
Yes....LBJ was a strategic thinker and he always operated that way. What they lost in the south they gain elsewhere
Poet gets pwnd, seriously pwnd.
TemplarKormac seems to become a bit more aware.
buckeyes is in it for racist points, nothing else.
And we all realize that when the left and the reactionaries and the racists stay with generalities and ignore particulars, they can say the silliest things.
My job is done here.
You're wrong. You really think that when Lyndon Johnson correctly predicted that the Democratic Party would LOSE the South in the wake of the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
he was talking about some sort of political GAIN??? Are you mentally retarded?
Yes....LBJ was a strategic thinker and he always operated that way. What they lost in the south they gain elsewhere
Gain where else? They were already strong in the liberal north.
If you want to talk about race and political expediency, it was in fact the FDR era liberal Democrats who neglected civil rights issues for the sake of maintaining the Democratic coalition with the segregationist South.
It is when principle trumped politics in the Democratic party, starting with Truman, that you saw the Democrats embrace civil rights, at the expense of the coalition.
Moving civil rights to the front burner, for the Democrats, was an act of principle, not an act of political expediency.
You seem not to mind generalizing the entire Republican Party as racist. I proved to you through history, and in my OP why Democrats are inherently racist. You can see the post above to prove why.
!
So you're saying that since some people generalize about the GOP as being racist,
and since you consider that a valid generalization,
you believe that your generalizations about the Democratic Party are also valid.
lol, good one.
No, I'm saying you take part in it. Why are you defending them (the Democrats)? I thought you were an Independent? You are hopelessly dense, no amount of retorting to your argument will appease you.
So you're saying that since some people generalize about the GOP as being racist,
and since you consider that a valid generalization,
you believe that your generalizations about the Democratic Party are also valid.
lol, good one.
No, I'm saying you take part in it. Why are you defending them (the Democrats)? I thought you were an Independent? You are hopelessly dense, no amount of retorting to your argument will appease you.
I'm defending 2 principles:
1. that it is idiocy to claim that the modern day Democratic Party is racist, and
2. that it is idiocy to claim that the modern day Democratic Party is somehow accountable for the actions of long ago conservative Southern Democrats.
oh, and a third one,
3. that it is idiocy to frame this issue as Republican vs. Democrat, when in fact it is a Conservative vs. Liberal issue.
