Reforming Islam

[irosie91]

Irosie loves to tell lies about Islam and muslims......must be a Jew thing.

Even in the poorest muslim countries. Muslim parents teach their children to read, write, and memorize verses from the Quran.

Throughout the Middle East, one of the most popular community events is reciting the Quran by memory contests. ......

most muslims in the world cannot read Arabic. -----in some places kids learn to
recite the koran by rote ------without understanding the words ----This is a practice in places like Pakistan. In Pakistan lots of the females are completely illiterate to the point that they cannot draw an X on a paper as a substitute for a signature----
in some places papers a "signed" with a thumb print. Sunni forgets that I have
interacted with muslims for more than 45 years. Anyone interested----find an Iranian and ask him if he can read Arabic---------expect him to laugh

Nearly 40% of Muslim world’s population unable read or write: IINA Report

Nearly 40% of Muslim world’s population unable read or write: IINA Report

And of those that can read, many of them can only read the Quoran.

More likely recite from memory without being able to read it, or they read a translation.

Quran is translated in 102 languages

How many non-Muslims do you think bother to read that tripe? Because it has been translated into 102 languages does not mean that 101 of the languages are not Muslim dominated by adherents.

Because of their backward status, many Muslims are illiterate. Remember, a large amount are women who are simply illiterate and many are in Africa where illiteracy is widespread regardless of religion. Many are only able to recite the and read the Quoran even among those who are considered literate.

I do recall that at the time I read the English translation by PIckthall-----about
45+ years ago-----I was told that the thing had NOT YET been translated into
URDU------ ??? now its 102 languages?

 

[irosie91]

No, Jesus wasn't evil, so there is no requirement for His followers to recognise evil in Him. It's isn't there.

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

Well you carry on getting your panties in a twist over it, then

I'm not at all twisted about it, just enjoying your Jesus' shit didn't stink routine.

Happy to oblige, since you're making such an ass of yourself in your attempt to portray Jesus as evil. Lol. Keep 'em coming

We are discussing the lesser evils, the imperfections of Jesus, starting with his bad temper.

what bad temper?

 

[Meathead]

Greece annually translates five times more books from English than the entire Arab world, and currently, 65 million Arab adults are illiterate. These sobering statistics are thanks to the U.N.’s first Arab Human Development Report published back in 2002 which I found in Thomas Friedman’s recent Op-Ed in the New York Times.

The reports were published consecutively from 2002-2005, but until this year a new report hasn’t been generated. The goal of the reports is both to “build consensus around regional and national development priorities” and to “identify disadvantaged groups of population and regions and suggest policies, strategies and opportunities for investment to benefit them,” according to the U.N.’sAHDR website.

While the synopses of the report read like a long list of grievances—unemployment, misgovernance, environmental degradation, limited rights for women—the statistics that stood out the most to me centered around the issue of literacy. 65 million illiterate people is quite a few for a region composed of 22 countries. The statistic that Greece publishes five times more translated English-home language books than the Arab region does boils down to the fact that no more than 330 books are translated from English to Arabic annually. Even more sobering:

the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year” World Press.

A Note on Arabic Literacy and Translation - ALTA Language Services

 

[Tilly]

Perhaps the 'reformation' should start with improved literacy rates.

 

[Coyote]

Do tell, if you would be so kind, what kinds of reforms you would like to see happen in Islam?

Ending terrorism, pretty obvious.
Ending armed and violent Jihad of course.
Church and State separation?
Equals rights for girls and women?
Religious tolerance?

?

I think the only meaningful answers would come from Muslims who have a more full understanding of their faith than any of the rest of us.

The thing about your list though...is it's not really about "religious reform" but "cultural reforms".

Ending terrorism - that's not something that has to do with religious reformation because it's not a religious tenant - it's actions by extremist who will act that way regardless of "reformation" adopted by the religion.

Ending armed and violent Jihad - there is already much discussion on what "Jihad" really means with some viewing it as a personal struggle and others an armed struggle. Reformation would continue the discussion and push the idea that jihad is personal and internal rather than external into the mainstream.

Church and state seperation - I think that's less a religious tenant than a cultural one. Christianity's reformation for example, did not seperate Church and state. Increasing secularism seems like it's responsible for that change and Muslims in in western countries there doesn't seem to be any issue with that seperation.

Equal rights for girls and women- again, that is a cultural issue over a religious issue. For example none of the Abrahamic faiths (or for that matter faiths like Hinduism) have altered their religious texts in regards to the treatment of women. Cultural changes allowed women to force or fight for religious changes. Getting religion out of government is what is needed but I'm not sure that's "religious reformation".

Religious tolerance - it's there in the Quran for the taking if religious leaders choose to, and - taking religion out of government would help.

I think "religious reformation" would take the form of Islamic scholars and leaders looking at Islam, and how it can be interpreted to be in line with fundamental modern values and rights, and then passing that on to their followers. But that can only happen if the fundamental culture changes.

 

[Meathead]

Do tell, if you would be so kind, what kinds of reforms you would like to see happen in Islam?

Ending terrorism, pretty obvious.
Ending armed and violent Jihad of course.
Church and State separation?
Equals rights for girls and women?
Religious tolerance?

?

I think the only meaningful answers would come from Muslims who have a more full understanding of their faith than any of the rest of us.

The thing about your list though...is it's not really about "religious reform" but "cultural reforms".

Ending terrorism - that's not something that has to do with religious reformation because it's not a religious tenant - it's actions by extremist who will act that way regardless of "reformation" adopted by the religion.

Ending armed and violent Jihad - there is already much discussion on what "Jihad" really means with some viewing it as a personal struggle and others an armed struggle. Reformation would continue the discussion and push the idea that jihad is personal and internal rather than external into the mainstream.

Church and state seperation - I think that's less a religious tenant than a cultural one. Christianity's reformation for example, did not seperate Church and state. Increasing secularism seems like it's responsible for that change and Muslims in in western countries there doesn't seem to be any issue with that seperation.

Equal rights for girls and women- again, that is a cultural issue over a religious issue. For example none of the Abrahamic faiths (or for that matter faiths like Hinduism) have altered their religious texts in regards to the treatment of women. Cultural changes allowed women to force or fight for religious changes. Getting religion out of government is what is needed but I'm not sure that's "religious reformation".

Religious tolerance - it's there in the Quran for the taking if religious leaders choose to, and - taking religion out of government would help.

I think "religious reformation" would take the form of Islamic scholars and leaders looking at Islam, and how it can be interpreted to be in line with fundamental modern values and rights, and then passing that on to their followers. But that can only happen if the fundamental culture changes.

It's akin to asking why all thugs should be blamed for the actions of a few.

Sorry, fail. This is no secrete.

 

[Meathead]

I think the only meaningful answers would come from Muslims who have a more full understanding of their faith than any of the rest of us.

Don't think. You don't have the facilities to do so. Keep it simple stupid.

 

[Tilly]

I'm with this guy:

Can Islam be Reformed?
April 26, 2015
A real reformation of the Islamic religion would require a repudiation of large parts of Muhammad's legacy, which is akin to reforming Christianity by repudiating Christ.

William Kilpatrick
Can Islam be Reformed? | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views

Not gonna happen.

 

[Tilly]

Ayaan has it right, ut no way this is going to happen:

.” More recently, in an essay for the Wall Street Journal, Ayaan Hirsi Ali called for a thorough reformation of Islam (WSJ, March 21-22, 2015). Hirsi Ali, who left Islam and who has fought for the rights of Muslim women both as an author and as a member of the Dutch parliament, lists several needed changes:

• An acknowledgement that the Koran “was shaped by human hands” and should not be interpreted literally.

• An emphasis on the rewards of this life as opposed to the rewards of the afterlife.

• A rejection of those elements of Shariah law that are “violent, intolerant, or anachronistic.”

• A rejection of jihad.

Looking at the list, you can appreciate the difficulty of the proposed reformation. Among other things Hirsi Ali is asking Muslim men to give up their dreams of a heavenly harem. Most difficult of all, she also calls for a repudiation of “those parts of Muhammad’s legacy that summon Muslims to intolerance and war.”

If you’re a non-Muslim, you might be inclined to say, “Sure, why not?” But it’s not quite so simple. As Hirsi Ali points out, Muhammad enjoys an “infallible”, “semi-divine” status among Muslims. To reform Islam by repudiating Muhammad is akin to reforming Christianity by repudiating Christ. In short, it would be a tough sell.

Can Islam be Reformed? | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

Well you carry on getting your panties in a twist over it, then

I'm not at all twisted about it, just enjoying your Jesus' shit didn't stink routine.

Happy to oblige, since you're making such an ass of yourself in your attempt to portray Jesus as evil. Lol. Keep 'em coming

We are discussing the lesser evils, the imperfections of Jesus, starting with his bad temper.

what bad temper?

The one that caused him to fuck with trees, animals, and people.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I'm with this guy:

Can Islam be Reformed?
April 26, 2015
A real reformation of the Islamic religion would require a repudiation of large parts of Muhammad's legacy, which is akin to reforming Christianity by repudiating Christ.

William Kilpatrick
Can Islam be Reformed? | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views

Not gonna happen.

Oh, give it time. Liberalism and capitalism pretty much made Christianity a token religion.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I think the only meaningful answers would come from Muslims who have a more full understanding of their faith than any of the rest of us.

Reform comes from the outside, usually. What reforms would you like to see?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

And they don't consider Muhammad evil, which makes you................................................................................................................the same.

That's the problem.

That is a problem alright, the problem of religion, all of them.

No, Jesus wasn't evil, so there is no requirement for His followers to recognise evil in Him. It's isn't there.

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

You totally miss the points. Go back and read the bible

No need, I know it.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Could not the same be said of the teachings of Jesus? Was he, in any way at all, wrong?

Yanno, I knew it wouldn't take long for some loony lefty to try to deflect the "Reforming Islam" thread into a "Was Jesus or is Christianity evil" thread but I didn't expect it to happen by post #6 nor did I suspect it would be the OP to fudge his own thread.

Then again, PMS has never been the brightest bulb on the tree.

Exactly how is that much different from what Christians believe?

Exactly what does your loony leftard hate for Christians and Christianity have to do with the "Reforming Islam" subject at hand?

Oh, that's right ... it has none.

I swear you loons are the dimmest creatures on the planet (and I mean that with as much respect as I can muster for raging idiots).

The threads go where they may. Don't like it, don't post.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

Only after demons were placed inside them, by Jesus. I'm sure they were having a fine time before then eh?

Demons did not want to "invade" any more people after Jesus removed them.
By being in the pigs they could end their possessions of people by killing themselves.

A pig was an unclean animals that jews would not eat.

The Jews weren't the only ones around, and Jesus didn't need to kill off the livestock of another. No respect for Private Property.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

the pigs killed each other. The demons asked to be pigs. Mark 5:12

One, didn't know that Jesus took direct from demons, two, since they then rushed to their deaths that was a very poor choice. Pigs are not required to banish demons.

Seems you don't know the bible as well as you thought.
Demons did not order Jesus, they requested

And, he obeyed. Pretty odd actually but he was, as I said, showing off.

 

[Tilly]

I'm with this guy:

Can Islam be Reformed?
April 26, 2015
A real reformation of the Islamic religion would require a repudiation of large parts of Muhammad's legacy, which is akin to reforming Christianity by repudiating Christ.

William Kilpatrick
Can Islam be Reformed? | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views

Not gonna happen.

Oh, give it time. Liberalism and capitalism pretty much made Christianity a token religion.

Christianity began its reformation before liberalism existed as any kind of force. Duuhhhhh.

 

[Tilly]

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

Only after demons were placed inside them, by Jesus. I'm sure they were having a fine time before then eh?

Demons did not want to "invade" any more people after Jesus removed them.
By being in the pigs they could end their possessions of people by killing themselves.

A pig was an unclean animals that jews would not eat.

The Jews weren't the only ones around, and Jesus didn't need to kill off the livestock of another. No respect for Private Property.

Big deal.

 

[irosie91]

I'm with this guy:

Can Islam be Reformed?
April 26, 2015
A real reformation of the Islamic religion would require a repudiation of large parts of Muhammad's legacy, which is akin to reforming Christianity by repudiating Christ.

William Kilpatrick
Can Islam be Reformed? | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views

Not gonna happen.

Oh, give it time. Liberalism and capitalism pretty much made Christianity a token religion.

Christianity began its reformation before liberalism existed as any kind of force. Duuhhhhh.

the reformation of Luther was not all that "LIBERAL"

 

[Tilly]

Could not the same be said of the teachings of Jesus? Was he, in any way at all, wrong?

Yanno, I knew it wouldn't take long for some loony lefty to try to deflect the "Reforming Islam" thread into a "Was Jesus or is Christianity evil" thread but I didn't expect it to happen by post #6 nor did I suspect it would be the OP to fudge his own thread.

Then again, PMS has never been the brightest bulb on the tree.

Exactly how is that much different from what Christians believe?

Exactly what does your loony leftard hate for Christians and Christianity have to do with the "Reforming Islam" subject at hand?

Oh, that's right ... it has none.

I swear you loons are the dimmest creatures on the planet (and I mean that with as much respect as I can muster for raging idiots).

The threads go where they may. Don't like it, don't post.

Oooooooh. Get her