Reforming Islam

[Fueri]

Interesting question posed by the thread.

I've been wondering the same, but along a different tangent, not 'what', but rather 'how' to change it, as I am not aware of a central authority that could actually change anything.

The Catholic Church, for example, has the papacy. For all of it's foibles and how unbelievably slow it is to accept change, at least there is some means of talking sense to people. I don't see that with Islam, which leaves it wide open to these hijackings by nutbags that are just looking for some text in a book to justify their madness.

You might want to work on the "what" part, since that comes first.

I wasn't discounting the what, but I'd think the how is as important.

If there is no vehicle to implement them, 'what's' are then just ideas that have no hope of implementation.

For a coffee shop discussion, I'd imagine 'what' is good fodder.

For fostering actual change we can have all the greatest ideas on the planet, but they're useless without the 'how'.

This is a coffee shop discussion...

Ok, so it's senseless prattle that should ignore major questions wrt to reforming Islam.

gotcha.

prattle on....

How comes after what. How to make the world a better requires one to think first of what does that mean, then how to make said things a reality. There's nothing senseless about this and even if there were, your question would be even worse.

That's a distinction without a difference. We'd like to go to Alpha Centauri but we can't. We can talk about it till the cows come home, but no ship, no trip.

Maybe it's just that my brain is wired this way. In my profession I'm the 'how' guy that figures out how to design and build something some normally clueless guy thinks will actually work.

Anyhow I wasn't looking to turn this into a pissing contest.

If you'd rather focus on the what without addressing the how for purposes of this discussion, that's totally fine, although, for me, you cannot have one without the other.

carry on.....

 

[Tilly]

I'm sure circumstances dictated the best use of available resources. How's that?

Killing the animals of another when such a thing was unnecessary? Nope.

You have no idea what was necessary.

 

[aris2chat]

A Christian would most likely say no, that Jesus was perfect. That is the dogma, like Sunni Man's.

Can you provide some examples of JEsus being 'wrong' as per your question.

Several. He had a bad temper including cursing a fig tree, killing pigs for no reason, disrupting Temple, rejecting his family, breaking the Sabbath, etc., And he was known as a lush and his teachings are all over the damn place and hard to align.

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

demons asked for it.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I'm sure circumstances dictated the best use of available resources. How's that?

Killing the animals of another when such a thing was unnecessary? Nope.

You have no idea what was necessary.

Oh, but I do, since he did such a thing several times.

 

[Tilly]

That's the problem.

That is a problem alright, the problem of religion, all of them.

No, Jesus wasn't evil, so there is no requirement for His followers to recognise evil in Him. It's isn't there.

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

Well you carry on getting your panties in a twist over it, then

I'm not at all twisted about it, just enjoying your Jesus' shit didn't stink routine.

Happy to oblige, since you're making such an ass of yourself in your attempt to portray Jesus as evil. Lol. Keep 'em coming

 

[PaintMyHouse]

demons asked for it.

Didn't know that Jesus was supposed to obey demons?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

That is a problem alright, the problem of religion, all of them.

No, Jesus wasn't evil, so there is no requirement for His followers to recognise evil in Him. It's isn't there.

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

Well you carry on getting your panties in a twist over it, then

I'm not at all twisted about it, just enjoying your Jesus' shit didn't stink routine.

Happy to oblige, since you're making such an ass of yourself in your attempt to portray Jesus as evil. Lol. Keep 'em coming

We are discussing the lesser evils, the imperfections of Jesus, starting with his bad temper.

 

[aris2chat]

Several. He had a bad temper including cursing a fig tree, killing pigs for no reason, disrupting Temple, rejecting his family, breaking the Sabbath, etc., And he was known as a lush and his teachings are all over the damn place and hard to align.

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

 

[PaintMyHouse]

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

Only after demons were placed inside them, by Jesus. I'm sure they were having a fine time before then eh?

 

[aris2chat]

Several. He had a bad temper including cursing a fig tree, killing pigs for no reason, disrupting Temple, rejecting his family, breaking the Sabbath, etc., And he was known as a lush and his teachings are all over the damn place and hard to align.

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

the pigs killed each other. The demons asked to be pigs. Mark 5:12

One, didn't know that Jesus took direct from demons, two, since they then rushed to their deaths that was a very poor choice. Pigs are not required to banish demons.

Seems you don't know the bible as well as you thought.
Demons did not order Jesus, they requested

 

[aris2chat]

No. I don't consider Jesus evil at all.
And your list of 'wrongs' have helped clarify that for me. So thanks.

And they don't consider Muhammad evil, which makes you................................................................................................................the same.

That's the problem.

That is a problem alright, the problem of religion, all of them.

No, Jesus wasn't evil, so there is no requirement for His followers to recognise evil in Him. It's isn't there.

Pretty sure killing animals and trees for no reason is evil.

You totally miss the points. Go back and read the bible

 

[Meathead]

The good news is that most
muslims never read the koran so they are willing to believe it

Irosie loves to tell lies about Islam and muslims......must be a Jew thing.

Even in the poorest muslim countries. Muslim parents teach their children to read, write, and memorize verses from the Quran.

Throughout the Middle East, one of the most popular community events is reciting the Quran by memory contests. ......

most muslims in the world cannot read Arabic. -----in some places kids learn to
recite the koran by rote ------without understanding the words ----This is a practice in places like Pakistan. In Pakistan lots of the females are completely illiterate to the point that they cannot draw an X on a paper as a substitute for a signature----
in some places papers a "signed" with a thumb print. Sunni forgets that I have
interacted with muslims for more than 45 years. Anyone interested----find an Iranian and ask him if he can read Arabic---------expect him to laugh

Nearly 40% of Muslim world’s population unable read or write: IINA Report

Nearly 40% of Muslim world’s population unable read or write: IINA Report

And of those that can read, many of them can only read the Quoran.

More likely recite from memory without being able to read it, or they read a translation.

Quran is translated in 102 languages

How many non-Muslims do you think bother to read that tripe? Because it has been translated into 102 languages does not mean that 101 of the languages are not Muslim dominated by adherents.

Because of their backward status, many Muslims are illiterate. Remember, a large amount are women who are simply illiterate and many are in Africa where illiteracy is widespread regardless of religion. Many are only able to recite the and read the Quoran even among those who are considered literate.

 

[SAYIT]

Could not the same be said of the teachings of Jesus? Was he, in any way at all, wrong?

Yanno, I knew it wouldn't take long for some loony lefty to try to deflect the "Reforming Islam" thread into a "Was Jesus or is Christianity evil" thread but I didn't expect it to happen by post #6 nor did I suspect it would be the OP to fudge his own thread.

Then again, PMS has never been the brightest bulb on the tree.

Exactly how is that much different from what Christians believe?

Exactly what does your loony leftard hate for Christians and Christianity have to do with the "Reforming Islam" subject at hand?

Oh, that's right ... it has none.

I swear you loons are the dimmest creatures on the planet (and I mean that with as much respect as I can muster for raging idiots).

 

[aris2chat]

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

Only after demons were placed inside them, by Jesus. I'm sure they were having a fine time before then eh?

Demons did not want to "invade" any more people after Jesus removed them.
By being in the pigs they could end their possessions of people by killing themselves.

A pig was an unclean animals that jews would not eat.

 

[Tilly]

".....The truth is that Islam has already had its own reformation of sorts, in the sense of a stripping of cultural accretions and a process of supposed “purification”. And it didn’t produce a tolerant, pluralistic, multifaith utopia, a Scandinavia-on-the-Euphrates. Instead, it produced … the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Wasn’t reform exactly what was offered to the masses of the Hijaz by Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, the mid-18th century itinerant preacher who allied with the House of Saud? He offered an austere Islam cleansed of what he believed to be innovations, which eschewed centuries of mainstream scholarship and commentary, and rejected the authority of the traditional ulema, or religious authorities.

Some might argue that if anyone deserves the title of a Muslim Luther, it is Ibn Abdul Wahhab who, in the eyes of his critics, combined Luther’s puritanism with the German monk’s antipathy towards the Jews. Ibn Abdul Wahhab’s controversial stance on Muslim theology, writes his biographer Michael Crawford, “made him condemn much of the Islam of his own time” and led to him being dismissed as a heretic by his own family....

....
With apologies to Luther, if anyone wants to do the same to the religion of Islam today, it is Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who claims to rape and pillage in the name of a “purer form” of Islam – and who isn’t, incidentally, a fan of the Jews either. Those who cry so simplistically, and not a little inanely, for an Islamic reformation, should be careful what they wish for."

•Mehdi Hasan is a presenter on Al-Jazeera English. The views expressed here are his own

Why Islam doesn’t need a reformation | Mehdi Hasan

 

[Sunni Man]

During Ramadan, call for Islamic awakening resonates with Muslim scholars pushing for reform | Fox News

There will always be traitors and turncoats like these people in every religion. .........

 

[Tilly]

The quran is the immutable word of allah, thus it cannot be changed. Any reforms would simply mean all Muslims adhering to it, and to sharia, to the letter. Hence salafim as the reformation.

]During Ramadan, call for Islamic awakening resonates with Muslim scholars pushing for reform | Fox News

There will always be traitors and turncoats like these people in every religion. .........

If a Muslim calls for reformation they are a traitor? Please explain.

 

[Meathead]

During Ramadan, call for Islamic awakening resonates with Muslim scholars pushing for reform | Fox News

There will always be traitors and turncoats like these people in every religion. .........

The traitor and turncoats to your alleged religion are terrorists.

I don't know why you refuse to come to terms with that considering the moderate Islam that everyone refers to, going back to Bush.

 

[irosie91]

when did he kill innocent pigs? I have no recollection of this unfortunate
episode? ----the fig tree did not mind------fig trees always manage a STIFF UPPER LIP

Probably thinking of banishing demons from a person into some pigs near by.

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

the pigs killed each other. The demons asked to be pigs. Mark 5:12

One, didn't know that Jesus took direct from demons, two, since they then rushed to their deaths that was a very poor choice. Pigs are not required to banish demons.

Seems you don't know the bible as well as you thought.
Demons did not order Jesus, they requested

gee----I don't remember that part either-----I must have BLANKED it out of my
memory banks------?? DEMONS

 

[irosie91]

Pigs aren't required for said process. He was just showing off, and killing innocent animals.

Mohammed killed people. Pigs are killed all the time. People eat them, PMH. G-d you're funny today

The Christians didn't kill people? As for the pigs, just because we eat them doesn't mean Jesus had a right to kill what wasn't even his eh?

the pigs killed themselves/each other

Only after demons were placed inside them, by Jesus. I'm sure they were having a fine time before then eh?

Demons did not want to "invade" any more people after Jesus removed them.
By being in the pigs they could end their possessions of people by killing themselves.

A pig was an unclean animals that jews would not eat.

oh---so the demons should have been happy------Jesus did them a favor----they
did not become lunch