Religion and Ethics - The topic of this USMB Discussion is an "oxymoron"

[emilynghiem]

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

It does NOT change the fact that wrongs were wrong, or crimes were illegal and still face consequences! A person can forgive the murderer in prison, but that person may still face legal consequences and execution; and that has nothing to do with spiritual healing and forgiveness releasing the victims and survivors of any ill will, fear or negative feelings about the murder and the aftermath including the execution. They have let go, and are at peace, while the justice system is still used to govern the process by laws.

I think you are confusing forgiveness with "enabling".
If you are DENYING the wrongdoing that is ALSO NOT FORGIVENESS.
Forgiveness means ACKNOWLEDGING the wrongs or injuries,
or else what is there to FORGIVE if no wrong or harm was committed?

RWS I AGREE with you that just like the Black Democrats have done for years,
"denying tolerating enabling" and "turning a blind eye" to wrongs is WRONG.
It allows abuse to continue so that is the WRONG way to do things.

The right way is to forgive in order to communicate and understand the causes so these can be
ADDRESSED and CORRECTED mutually and transparently between the parties involved.
If people are still yelling and screaming, then the causes and solutions cannot be addressed rationally.

You seem very levelheaded and rational about this, RWS.
If you were so hostile and belligerent about religious abuses, that you could not contain your
outrage, so you were ranting and blaming and threatening people with punishment,
then nobody could work or reason with you to IDENTIFY which people caused which abuses.

So you would need to forgive the upset FIRST before you could rationally address the wrongs underneath.
That's what is meant by forgiveness.
IT DOES NOT CHANGE the nature of the wrongs and the need for justice for wrongdoings.'
It does NOT excuse the wrongdoer from having to take responsibility for the debts and damages incurred.
(in fact it does the opposite and allows them to be addressed MORE EFFECTIVELY so they CAN BE COMPELLED by conscience to take actions.)
It releases that emotional angst and victimhood obstructing people, and
brings them PEACE at ALL stages throughout the process. So you DON'T have
to wait until the problem is resolved to find PEACE, you can have it before and during the pursuit of justice.

(NOTE 1:
this is the most common misperception of forgiveness in thinking it lets the wrongdoers off the ho o k and enables
wrongs to continue like a doormat asking to be abused.
see explanations on the Dangers of Unforgiveness:
"Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die"
Dangers of Unforgiveness
and the Steps to Forgiveness: Steps to Forgiveness)

NOTE 2: a common misperception of "turning the other cheek" in the Bible is to act like a doormat and invite abuse to continue.
No, of course that isn't what it means or you're right that is abusive and wrong. That is enabling injustice instead of invoking the authority of Justice which Jesus represents,
but Justice with Mercy, not with retribution which belongs to God alone.

The best explanation I ever saw for "turning the other cheek" in the Bible
was to compel the accuser to address the accused with respect as an equal peer in order to deliver a rebuke.

A backhanded slap was reserved for SLAVES who were not citizens but less than equal people.
So backhanding a slave was reprimanding someone lower than the other person as the Master.
A forehanded slap was reserved for Citizens, so forcing someone to rebuke you as an equal
citizen is demanding correction as a Colleague not as someone inferior.)

 

[BreezeWood]

Dear BreezeWood what makes it easy for you to distinguish religion from spirituality, also makes you quick to blame the Scriptures instead of the interpretations, and to blame me for being "disingenuous" by applying the same "quick easy" judgment.

But I would differ and say it's not so easy as you judge these things.

From your viewpoint, you already know and have it all figured out. That "I'm being disingenuous" so that "easily explains" why you can disregard everything I say for convenience. And the "scriptures" are to blame, not the wrongful interpretations, so that makes it easy doesn't it.

Just throw me out and anything I say, and you don't have to correct anything.

Just toss out the entire Bible, and no effort needs to be invested in "distinguishing" the true meanings from the false religions made of it!
Simple, right?

BreezeWood if that was the universal truth and way of everyone , then we'd be done by now. We'd all agree to use the same language, rules and "distinctions" you make and have no conflicts to resolve.

But BW the truth speaks to people in different ways, not just your way, not just mine.

The issue and process is to find how to communicate the same truths, even though we each use different language and terms.

It does not work for everyone to throw out the Bible and change to YOUR way of expressing God's truth or true religion.

That's like asking YOU to throw away your way of teaching it and using the Bible for someone else convenience. If you would not do that for a neighbor , but you would ask your neighbor to throw away their scriptures and use your words to teach the spiritual concepts behind them, then that's what causes conflicts.

From your viewpoint , sure its easy if everyone converted to your language and terms.

But then the next person could ask the same of you. And if you me and others dont agree to switch back and forth using the best language of convenience for each person and situation, well, that's exactly the problems we face now. We dont all agree on a central common system .

So we can either fight for dominance, and be no better or worse than Christians imposing the Bible as the only way to teach Gods laws.

Or we can be like Jesus. And speak to farmers and fishermen using THEIR language and understanding not ours. And speak to Pharisees using THEIR laws. Speak to gentiles using THEIR science and experiences by reason free will and conscience to study learn and decide . and equally speak with Christians using THEIR Bibles if that's how God communicates and reaches them.

God's truth has been compared with water that can fill and flow through any container where it is poured. So whatever vessel people are given, God can use that to carry and distribute the same knowledge and truth in the format needed to reach that audience.

Thank you BreezeWood
I wish it were that simple. But as people stop fearing diversity and embrace the multitude of expressions of Gods truth, it will get easier and easier as we speak and share the truth with love and mutual respect instead of fear and rejection.

.

Dear BreezeWood what makes it easy for you to distinguish religion from spirituality, also makes you quick to blame the Scriptures instead of the interpretations, and to blame me for being "disingenuous" by applying the same "quick easy" judgment.

I was being sarcastic, my apology, I noticed you did not have the same criticism for cnel who made the statement ...

also makes you quick to blame the Scriptures instead of the interpretations, and to blame me for being "disingenuous" by applying the same "quick easy" judgment.

...........

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

you are disingenuous, I have given you the above example before that is your religion I'm sorry your religion is not the religion of the 1st century we never move beyond your lack of comment to distinguish what each are referring to.

From your viewpoint, you already know and have it all figured out. That "I'm being disingenuous" so that "easily explains" why you can disregard everything I say for convenience. And the "scriptures" are to blame, not the wrongful interpretations, so that makes it easy doesn't it.

the 1st century religion of the Almighty is a 5 word Comandment - The Triumph of Good vs Evil -

the true spoken religion does not have a 10,000 page book written in the 4th century that is a political agenda disguised as religious - the "scripture" above and others are corrupt - it is you who is disingenuous in not correcting the deliberate forgery's of the 1st century religion to suit your own world view.

Just toss out the entire Bible, and no effort needs to be invested in "distinguishing" the true meanings from the false religions made of it!
Simple, right?

again emily, the above quote from your book is your religion that is false.

We dont all agree on a central common system .

Or we can be like Jesus. And speak to farmers and fishermen using THEIR language and understanding not ours. And speak to Pharisees using THEIR laws. Speak to gentiles using THEIR science and experiences by reason free will and conscience to study learn and decide . and equally speak with Christians using THEIR Bibles if that's how God communicates and reaches them.

I wish it were that simple. But as people stop fearing diversity and embrace the multitude of expressions of Gods truth, it will get easier and easier as we speak and share the truth with love and mutual respect instead of fear and rejection.

I am saying and practicing what you have stated to be the way to give reason for belief in the Almighty, the Gatekeeper to the Everlasting - what they have also said is the Judgement is not for the individual alone but for all humanity and that it will be all or none that are granted Admission in the End.

I'm sorry, your 10,000 page document has had 2000 years and has failed miserably for everyone else than its perpetrators, it has basic flaws that make it a forgery it is time for you to change not those who follow the Commandment of the Almighty.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi BreezeWood and thanks for explaining. I didn't know and am sorry I misunderstood you.
Can we please "back up" to this sticking point that is also causing us to misunderstand each other:

RE: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

RE: you are disingenuous, I have given you the above example before that is your religion I'm sorry your religion is not the religion of the 1st century we never move beyond your lack of comment to distinguish what each are referring to.

1. You keep talking about "my religion", but I see we need to make a CLEAR distinction.
A. I also do NOT agree with or believe in people abusing the above scripture
to EXCLUDE nontheists and nonchristians from the salvation and heaven mentioned in
the Bible that represents the Kingdom of God.

so whatever this "religion" is that you cite, I don't believe or agree with it either.
It contradicts itself.

B. I still believe that Jesus does represent universal Justice with Mercy to bring
Peace to ALL humanity inclusively. I just don't teach it the way that "other religious tradition" does.

I go beyond that and teach the process of salvation as fully inclusive of all humanity and universal.

It is still true that Jesus *represents* the central connection between individual
conscience and the collective Kingdom of God encompassing all humanity, all truth and knowledge and laws of the universe.

But NO I do not teach it as some kind of exclusive condition that leaves out
the gentiles under natural laws who follow God's universal laws by conscience.

I include the secular gentiles, from the nontheists to the Buddhists, the Constitutionalist
and social scientists/psychologists who use natural laws and science and follow civil secular laws
as "the other fold of the one flock" equally governed under Justice which Jesus represents in the Bible.

Can we ad dress THIS point, which I thought I had mentioned before
and answered you: that I believe "Christ Jesus" means RESTORATIVEJUSTICE.
so that is the universal process by which man reconciles with God
and this meaning of the Bible is TRUE for both Jew and Gentile, believer and nontheist,
people under scriptural law and authority and people under natural law and civil authority and science.

What about this process do you find is
so "DISINGENUOUS"

Can you pinpoint what in the above explanation
strikes you as problematic and in need of clarification or correction?

Thank you so much BreezeWood
and sorry for this misunderstanding between what we post and what we mean.
I appreciate your help to clarify and correct
so there is nothing "disingenuous" or giving that impression.

Please correct what you see wrong with the above explanations. Thanks!!!

 

[Boss]

Listen bossman, I am using logic and truth.

If that somehow hurts your butthole, then that's your problem.

No need to keep trolling something that you have no investment in. Because each time, you make me more invested in kickin your butt. And really, I'm past that stage. But I'm really good at it... So please, heed my warning and STFU.

You're not using logic or truth. What you're doing is (ironically) proselytizing your beliefs and then, unethically trying to bully and intimidate others into accepting them. But that's not working for you because you can't make your case.

Why don't we cut to the chase? You have a personal beef with Christians. Their sense of morality and ethics interferes with your lifestyle. You don't like them using political means to force you into compliance. You have grown tired of being the defender of perverted marriage and killing babies and so you've decided upon a strategy of undermining their entire religious foundation.

What you're failing to understand is you're not the first to try this and being the actual foundation for most religion is human spiritual understanding, you have embarked on a centuries-old mission of failure.

 

[emilynghiem]

Listen bossman, I am using logic and truth.

If that somehow hurts your butthole, then that's your problem.

No need to keep trolling something that you have no investment in. Because each time, you make me more invested in kickin your butt. And really, I'm past that stage. But I'm really good at it... So please, heed my warning and STFU.

You're not using logic or truth. What you're doing is (ironically) proselytizing your beliefs and then, unethically trying to bully and intimidate others into accepting them. But that's not working for you because you can't make your case.

Why don't we cut to the chase? You have a personal beef with Christians. Their sense of morality and ethics interferes with your lifestyle. You don't like them using political means to force you into compliance. You have grown tired of being the defender of perverted marriage and killing babies and so you've decided upon a strategy of undermining their entire religious foundation.

What you're failing to understand is you're not the first to try this and being the actual foundation for most religion is human spiritual understanding, you have embarked on a centuries-old mission of failure.

Yes and no Boss
RWS is willing to pursue solutions to stop these abuses, and that means working through these issues not just barking complaining and running.
I also stress the need to address political and corporate abuses of courts and govt. So the same solutions can work on all areas with similar issues.

Both you and BreezeWood express valid concerns that RWS and I dont follow or fall into the very messes we seek to resolve and correct.

I assure you RWS and I are open to taking a slightly approach, and its not the same old same old as before .

I believe the solutions will come from redressing grievances through enforcement of Constitutional principles. These issues have never been fully addressed and resolved yo the extent that I am advocating.

RWS is one of the first to support some real practical reforms that we the people introduce directly, not just complain about. I believe this is overdue, and the public is demanding it now.

 

[Boss]

Listen bossman, I am using logic and truth.

If that somehow hurts your butthole, then that's your problem.

No need to keep trolling something that you have no investment in. Because each time, you make me more invested in kickin your butt. And really, I'm past that stage. But I'm really good at it... So please, heed my warning and STFU.

You're not using logic or truth. What you're doing is (ironically) proselytizing your beliefs and then, unethically trying to bully and intimidate others into accepting them. But that's not working for you because you can't make your case.

Why don't we cut to the chase? You have a personal beef with Christians. Their sense of morality and ethics interferes with your lifestyle. You don't like them using political means to force you into compliance. You have grown tired of being the defender of perverted marriage and killing babies and so you've decided upon a strategy of undermining their entire religious foundation.

What you're failing to understand is you're not the first to try this and being the actual foundation for most religion is human spiritual understanding, you have embarked on a centuries-old mission of failure.

Yes and no Boss
RWS is willing to pursue solutions to stop these abuses, and that means working through these issues not just barking complaining and running.
I also stress the need to address political and corporate abuses of courts and govt. So the same solutions can work on all areas with similar issues.

Both you and BreezeWood express valid concerns that RWS and I dont follow or fall into the very messes we seek to resolve and correct.

I assure you RWS and I are open to taking a slightly approach, and its not the same old same old as before .

I believe the solutions will come from redressing grievances through enforcement of Constitutional principles. These issues have never been fully addressed and resolved yo the extent that I am advocating.

RWS is one of the first to support some real practical reforms that we the people introduce directly, not just complain about. I believe this is overdue, and the public is demanding it now.

All due respect, Emily, I think you're full of crap. I have no idea of what kind of 'reforms' or 'solutions' you're talking about or assuring us RWS is working toward. I assure you he's not interested in resolution unless it's to reject Jewish and Christian religion. In that regard, he shares commonality with Breeze.

These are religious bigots who dislike religion because it threatens their immoral lifestyles. And that's really all this thread is about. Grandstanding atheists who arrogantly think they don't need moral accountability.

Apparently, you believe there is something to be gained in sucking up to the nonsense, which is disappointing to me because I've always thought you were intelligent.

 

[BreezeWood]

Hi BreezeWood and thanks for explaining. I didn't know and am sorry I misunderstood you.
Can we please "back up" to this sticking point that is also causing us to misunderstand each other:

RE: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

RE: you are disingenuous, I have given you the above example before that is your religion I'm sorry your religion is not the religion of the 1st century we never move beyond your lack of comment to distinguish what each are referring to.

1. You keep talking about "my religion", but I see we need to make a CLEAR distinction.
A. I also do NOT agree with or believe in people abusing the above scripture
to EXCLUDE nontheists and nonchristians from the salvation and heaven mentioned in
the Bible that represents the Kingdom of God.

so whatever this "religion" is that you cite, I don't believe or agree with it either.
It contradicts itself.

B. I still believe that Jesus does represent universal Justice with Mercy to bring
Peace to ALL humanity inclusively. I just don't teach it the way that "other religious tradition" does.

I go beyond that and teach the process of salvation as fully inclusive of all humanity and universal.

It is still true that Jesus *represents* the central connection between individual
conscience and the collective Kingdom of God encompassing all humanity, all truth and knowledge and laws of the universe.

But NO I do not teach it as some kind of exclusive condition that leaves out
the gentiles under natural laws who follow God's universal laws by conscience.

I include the secular gentiles, from the nontheists to the Buddhists, the Constitutionalist
and social scientists/psychologists who use natural laws and science and follow civil secular laws
as "the other fold of the one flock" equally governed under Justice which Jesus represents in the Bible.

Can we ad dress THIS point, which I thought I had mentioned before
and answered you: that I believe "Christ Jesus" means RESTORATIVEJUSTICE.
so that is the universal process by which man reconciles with God
and this meaning of the Bible is TRUE for both Jew and Gentile, believer and nontheist,
people under scriptural law and authority and people under natural law and civil authority and science.

What about this process do you find is
so "DISINGENUOUS"

Can you pinpoint what in the above explanation
strikes you as problematic and in need of clarification or correction?

Thank you so much BreezeWood
and sorry for this misunderstanding between what we post and what we mean.
I appreciate your help to clarify and correct
so there is nothing "disingenuous" or giving that impression.

Please correct what you see wrong with the above explanations. Thanks!!!

.......................
.

1. You keep talking about "my religion", but I see we need to make a CLEAR distinction.
A. I also do NOT agree with or believe in people abusing the above scripture
to EXCLUDE nontheists and nonchristians from the salvation and heaven mentioned inthe Bible that represents the Kingdom of God.

so whatever this "religion" is that you cite, I don't believe or agree with it either.
It contradicts itself.

so whatever this "religion" is that you cite, I don't believe or agree with it either.It contradicts itself.

well emily, the quote - "No one comes to the Father except through me” - is the religion of the 4th century bible, and you give every indication you are a biblical christian. it contradicts the 1st century, not sure the contradiction you have cited.

A. I also do NOT agree with or believe in people abusing the above scripture to EXCLUDE nontheists and nonchristians from the salvation and heaven mentioned in the Bible that represents the Kingdom of God.

it's not abusing the scripture, it is what the scripture says that makes the entire 4th century bible a forgery as it does not represent the events of the 1st century.

I go beyond that and teach the process of salvation as fully inclusive of all humanity and universal.

welcome to the 1st century ...

It is still true that Jesus *represents* the central connection between individual conscience and the collective Kingdom of God encompassing all humanity, all truth and knowledge and laws of the universe.

that Jesus conquered evil while a mortal and was the reason the Almighty recognized him for what they had accomplished ... and that they were still themselves - “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani” - capable of going off course.

I asked Boss, on what day did Jesus proclaim himself the christ or when was that title given them while they were still alive. have you the answer.

Can we address THIS point, which I thought I had mentioned before and answered you: that I believe "Christ Jesus" means RESTORATIVEJUSTICE. so that is the universal process by which man reconciles with God and this meaning of the Bible is TRUE for both Jew and Gentile, believer and nontheist, people under scriptural law and authority and people under natural law and civil authority and science.

restorative justice for the 1st century would be the conquering of the evil that mankind for whatever reason allowed to be ingrained in their everyday existence that everyone alive must accomplish to rid mankind of the awful anomaly, in totality and purity - to receive Remission to the Everlasting by accomplishing the feat.

the idea of christ is antithetical to the personal accomplishment each individual must endure by their own means to regain their lost purity.


save the above emily I believe we have more in common than in the past I thought at all possible ...




.

 

[RWS]

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

 

[RWS]

My point being that people don't normally act outside of their innate moral/ethical boundaries unless insane, or following what they believe is the teachings of their religion.

So is following a religion equivalent to insanity?

Because those are the only two ways that we go against our better nature.

 

[Boss]

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

 

[RWS]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

 

[BreezeWood]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

.............

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

.

That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

Neighbors Killed Woman for Bursting Kid's Ball


(Newser) – A woman who was sick of children's balls landing in her garden was beaten to death by neighbors after she punctured one of them.

I did not watch your video either, reading your above post simply underscores the depravity you have lowered yourself as a human being. the article where they assaulted their neighbor after they offended their child is a perfect example of what does not happen in nature - not the defensiveness as all beings are responsible for but the kind of vindictiveness you and they share alike.

 

[Boss]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

That's why you needed to watch the video. It was done before he killed himself. They were asked about his punishment and said they hoped he could get help, that it was not too late for even him to be saved. It's a powerful video to watch because you see they are sincere. They expressed zero animosity toward the man who had just killed their father in cold blood.

I could have never have done that... I don't think most could. Things like that are a testament to one's faith. You are grossly underestimating that.

 

[Boss]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

.............

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

.

That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

Neighbors Killed Woman for Bursting Kid's Ball


(Newser) – A woman who was sick of children's balls landing in her garden was beaten to death by neighbors after she punctured one of them.

I did not watch your video either, reading your above post simply underscores the depravity you have lowered yourself as a human being. the article where they assaulted their neighbor after they offended their child is a perfect example of what does not happen in nature - not the defensiveness as all beings are responsible for but the kind of vindictiveness you and they share alike.

Well you're wrong. Vindication happens all the time in nature. Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun. What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

 

[BreezeWood]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

.............

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

.

That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

Neighbors Killed Woman for Bursting Kid's Ball


(Newser) – A woman who was sick of children's balls landing in her garden was beaten to death by neighbors after she punctured one of them.

I did not watch your video either, reading your above post simply underscores the depravity you have lowered yourself as a human being. the article where they assaulted their neighbor after they offended their child is a perfect example of what does not happen in nature - not the defensiveness as all beings are responsible for but the kind of vindictiveness you and they share alike.

Well you're wrong. Vindication happens all the time in nature. Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun. What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

.

What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

they are at a far higher level of Spirituality where their responses are spontaneous, not the dwelling type you represent relying on text to guide their daily lives. there is no exclusivity for any living being you keep fantasizing for yourself.

Vindication happens all the time in nature.

link ....

that is a human sub-construct that is not natural and what requires remediation for a path to the Everlasting to be possible.

Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun.

is that you bossy, what reason is there to kill for fun that the other species would even consider ... though they might find a message in entertainment as a witness for others to take heed.

 

[Boss]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

.............

Excuse me RWS but let's compare it to families that suffered incest or fraud where someone did something wrong to the other family members.

Are you saying it is "evil" to forgive that person?
What if that is part of the healing and correction process?

I know a family that had to forgive incestuous abuse and also adultery
in order to save their relationships. They don't DENYthe wrongs were wrong.
That's not what FORGIVENESS is about.

The family member who had to go through counseling to recover from the partner's infidelity was also SHOCKED and ANGERED/COMPLETELY INSULTED to learnt that forgiveness is one of the steps! "why should ***I*** have to forgive the other person when THEY did the wrong and I had no knowledge or say in it. I didn't ask for this, they did. Now it's on ***ME*** to change my thinking?"of course the initial reaction is it's the OTHER PERSON needs to change, THEY did the wrong not me!!! but when it comes to HEALING of the wrong, the victim of the wrong still needs to forgive and let go that emotional burden, or else they will carry the injury and burden "that belongs to the wrongdoer." the first step is to let go and not hold on to the responsibility that belongs to the wrongdoer, not to the victim to feel that injury and upset.

Forgiveness ALLOWS the mind and conscience to release the EMOTIONAL pains, distress and attachments associated with the injuries.

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

.

That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

Neighbors Killed Woman for Bursting Kid's Ball


(Newser) – A woman who was sick of children's balls landing in her garden was beaten to death by neighbors after she punctured one of them.

I did not watch your video either, reading your above post simply underscores the depravity you have lowered yourself as a human being. the article where they assaulted their neighbor after they offended their child is a perfect example of what does not happen in nature - not the defensiveness as all beings are responsible for but the kind of vindictiveness you and they share alike.

Well you're wrong. Vindication happens all the time in nature. Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun. What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

.

What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

they are at a far higher level of Spirituality where their responses are spontaneous, not the dwelling type you represent relying on text to guide their daily lives. there is no exclusivity for any living being you keep fantasizing for yourself.

Vindication happens all the time in nature.

link ....

that is a human sub-construct that is not natural and what requires remediation for a path to the Everlasting to be possible.

Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun.

is that you bossy, what reason is there to kill for fun that the other species would even consider ... though they might find a message in entertainment as a witness for others to take heed.

Most humans don't kill their own species for fun. It happens all the time in the wild, so does vindication. Nature is a rough place without morality and ethics.

Breezy, I really don't give a shit what kooky nonsense you believe... you're entitled... just don't pretend it's fact. Because I'm going to call you out on that every time.

 

[BreezeWood]

Nope, did not watch it. I'm very weary of clicking any of your links (see dingbat).

But, I do know the story, and it was so very sad... I feel for the victim's family and friends, an innocent good man shot down for no reason other than an insane random act... It's horrible. Makes us realize that any of us can go at any moment, by some crazy asshole that we never met. It made me sick.

Don't understand your point about the father's family having "nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator".

It's a brave, stoic, and heart-wrenching story to put forward, but c'mon... Really? Had the perp lived, they would definitely not be seeking for him to be showered with love and released. I don't want to sound cold, but it's the truth.

You're getting hoodwinked again. You have to look at reality. You have to be outside of the box, and look in. Many people are trying to fool you, and sometimes it's hard to tell where or when. But religion, in the sense of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is trying to fool you 100% of the time. They exist solely to feed from you, and will eventually tell you anything you want to hear for your devotion, to benefit the wealth and power of those in charge.

.............

I'm sorry for what happened to that family. But I don't think anybody really forgives stuff like that, you just try to forget it. It's a natural response to the senselessness of tragedy. People try to put it behind them and move forward....

But my point of view is, that you don't allow the wrongdoer to continue to do wrong things by being naive and forgiving. You have to catch it and stop it early, so that mentality doesn't fester. Christianity has allowed too many evils to develop and fester. And followers today have to forgive past transgressions, in order to justify themselves as moral and ethical.

Now I may be 4000 years too late. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to talk some sense into the people today.

The point you're missing is that people do genuinely forgive and it's largely through their devout faith, which you lack. Since you don't have a clue as to how that works, you don't think it's really possible. Way back in the thread, I posted a video of the family of the victim of the Facebook killer. Did you ever watch it? Take a few minutes and watch... you'll see a family who just lost their beloved father to a senseless killing... nothing but forgiveness and love in their heart for the perpetrator. That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

.

That's the power of their religious faith. This isn't something you find elsewhere in nature.

Neighbors Killed Woman for Bursting Kid's Ball


(Newser) – A woman who was sick of children's balls landing in her garden was beaten to death by neighbors after she punctured one of them.

I did not watch your video either, reading your above post simply underscores the depravity you have lowered yourself as a human being. the article where they assaulted their neighbor after they offended their child is a perfect example of what does not happen in nature - not the defensiveness as all beings are responsible for but the kind of vindictiveness you and they share alike.

Well you're wrong. Vindication happens all the time in nature. Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun. What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

.

What they have a problem with is forgiveness and atonement.

they are at a far higher level of Spirituality where their responses are spontaneous, not the dwelling type you represent relying on text to guide their daily lives. there is no exclusivity for any living being you keep fantasizing for yourself.

Vindication happens all the time in nature.

link ....

that is a human sub-construct that is not natural and what requires remediation for a path to the Everlasting to be possible.

Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun.

is that you bossy, what reason is there to kill for fun that the other species would even consider ... though they might find a message in entertainment as a witness for others to take heed.

Most humans don't kill their own species for fun. It happens all the time in the wild, so does vindication. Nature is a rough place without morality and ethics.

Breezy, I really don't give a shit what kooky nonsense you believe... you're entitled... just don't pretend it's fact. Because I'm going to call you out on that every time.

.

Well you're wrong. Vindication happens all the time in nature. Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun.

Most humans don't kill their own species for fun. It happens all the time in the wild, so does vindication.

I gave you an example for your first statement ... "Some species don't even need that motivation, they may kill for fun".

your second statement - "Most humans don't kill their own species for fun".

leaves a little interpretation by you to be even remotely correct -



now it is your turn: "It happens all the time in the wild, so does vindication" - your turn for an example of what you stated as fact.

* of course your belief is entirely made up and resides only in your own mind and we already know that will not be an obstacle for you so feel free to reply with stawman denials that only make sense if veracity is not required.

Breezy, I really don't give a shit what kooky nonsense you believe... you're entitled... just don't pretend it's fact. Because I'm going to call you out on that every time.

you are not contributing to a discussion that this threads participants have been conducting and for some reason feel a need to be vindictive without cause - or at least show proof for any of your statements for a better understanding for what you are stating, boss.

 

[RWS]

Boss-man does not even believe in a religion, he's doing this for shits and giggles.

He'll end this thread by saying that he was just trying to debate a subject.

Don't listen to what he says, because he's just a troll...

 

[RWS]

The important thing to realize is that we all have "good" inside of us. We don't need a religion to get the "good" out of us.

What we perceive as "good" is just what natural selection would dictate is necessary to continue the species.

However, religion says that the "good" is something given to people by "god", and if we don't follow what that "god" says, we will be smitten....

However, humanity existed and thrived pre-religion. That's how we got here. To listen to the apologists, there is no way that the Sumerian civilization could have existed without a belief in their particular "god".

Because they never would have done anything good, since they didn't follow their "god".

 

[Boss]

Boss-man does not even believe in a religion, he's doing this for shits and giggles.

He'll end this thread by saying that he was just trying to debate a subject.

Don't listen to what he says, because he's just a troll...

Not about shits or giggles. Not trolling. I don't have a religion and I also have no ax to grind with religion. That makes me an objective opinion.

Your poorly worded OP claims religion is the antithesis of ethics and morality. All you've presented as support for this opinion is a litany of bad things you hold religion responsible for. You dismiss and ignore any good from religion.

You seem to be completely oblivious to how the vast majority of what we define as morality and ethics stems from our unique religious or spiritual beliefs.