Religion and Ethics - The topic of this USMB Discussion is an "oxymoron"

[emilynghiem]

I wouldn't go that far. I think one can have ethics and religion. I also think one can have ethics without religion.

The notion that religion makes someone moral and ethical is one that I strongly challenge, and think morality ought to be defined by words and action, not by religion or lack there of.

Well, you know, that's an easy posit to take. I'm trying to make it real.

So if you are a follower of a religion today (we are keeping it to the trinity for now), then you have to make excuses for what your religion did to get you here, if you intend to put yourself forward as a "good" person. You must excuse everything that occurred in order to make your religion dominant, and then you were born into it, and believe you are not guilty of past transgressions even though you commit to that religion.

Or, you can accept it and say that all those people deserved to suffer and die because they were non-believers. And you're a "good" person because you follow the winning religion.

Or, you can say that you had nothing to do with what they did, to justify yourself today as an innocent follower, and you're not guilty of those acts that were committed in your creation, and would never do it again.... Even though you follow everything they say in that religion, that led to those terrible acts.

So if you follow a trinity religion, there is no way you can be moral or ethical. Because to be a "good Catholic", you have to forget what got you there.

That doesn't mean it goes away because you choose to forget or ignore it.

It's what got you here, arguing about your religion and trying to justify it. (not you personally, but all the others).

You all know that you religious followers are guilty as heck. I'm just pointing out the obvious, and you all are freaking out over it. And you have to deny it to make yourselves feel better.

Let me give some advice. You will start feeling better, when you let your religion go, and start understanding reality. And at the same time, the world will become a better place because of it.

Dear RWS do you mean any person who puts their own selfish dogma before the equal respect and inclusion of others is going to run into conflict harm damage or oppression of others? I agree with you, and find that's a good way of explaining what goes wrong with ALL humans in general. By ego and by our needs to defend our interests, we are each going to put ourselves before others. And what you point out is any Collective group with a Collective will is more at risk of oppressing imposing and endangering individuals without that collective group to defend them . they are apt to get railroaded over by a bigger cult or corporate influence that has more power.
That's the flaws of humanity multiplied by large groups.

You are more alarmed when religions are abused this way. But what about whole govts which is political abuse. What about global corporations which abuse collective power and resources to roll over poor workers and environmental damage left to others to fix with no voice in comparison.
These dangers are greater than just religion. Our Bill of Rights was written to address political abuses of govt. We need to apply the same standards of due process and redress of grievances to all such groups of collective size and influence which can abuse their unequal power to run over individual citizens without equal protection.

So while I agree with you that religious abuse needs to be checked at the door, perhaps the minute such organizations file with the state, I'd take it further. I'd require all collective organizations and entities to provide the same means of protection that the govt has to respect for individuals so they don't get run over by ANY TYPE abuse of collective authority resources or influence. Not just religious, but political or corporate, business or nonprofit.
I agree with you, and more!

 

[cnelsen]

It is a discussion of why religion is inherently evil, because people are fooled to follow the wrong things. And commit bad acts upon the rest of us based on what they were fooled to do.

Religion is no more inherently evil than Science is or Art is. Humans are frequently evil, yes, and our religious understanding is still very primitive, but those are separate issues.

 

[BreezeWood]

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Religion is no more inherently evil than Science is or Art is.

correct, however ...

actual history proves otherwise for "scriptural" religions including both Science and Art being their prey and victimized by the dominant scriptural religions over the centuries. vocal free Spirited religions being their prey as well. demonstrating a clear and consistent record of evil over time.

and the Sciences and Arts are not inherently involved directly with the subject of good and evil.

- of course the scriptural religions could be referred to as disguised political agendas than religions but that is not how they are portrayed by those that manage them or their congregations as inaccurate (deceitful) as they may be ...

 

[cnelsen]

Religion is no more to blame for the Jews exterminating the Edomites, or for the Catholics burning heretics, than Science is to blame for 140,000 dead in Hiroshima or for an airplane crashing.

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality--which only causes confusion. I find it a good way to define for myself what Religion actually is.

 

[emilynghiem]

Religion is no more to blame for the Jews exterminating the Edomites, or for the Catholics burning heretics, than Science is to blame for 140,000 dead in Hiroshima or for an airplane crashing.

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality--which only causes confusion. I find it a good way to define for myself what Religion actually is.

Thanks cnelsen I appreciate your objectivity and neutral approach which is refreshing and much needed.

In my experiences with ppl discussing religious abuses, there is often a more heavily weighed factor of sexual abuse and personal psychological abuse associated with religion and particularly Christianity. If people have seen or felt this affect them personally it tends to bear more weight on the scales of Justice than other types of abuses or damages caused by human flaws or institutions .

I have met people who can forgive people burned alive or generations born deformed from the US dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. But can't forgive a neighbor or family member for telling them they are going to hell when they did nothing wrong.

Incidents of religious abuse can skew the whole scale of blame and responsibility for right and wrong. Same with the political abuse we see now, where people of both parties accuse the other of swallowing camels while swatting at gnats. Forgiveness is selective, and if we dont forgive then this can be projected as blame that skews our judgment. When both ppl have their pet issues and barriers, it doubles in difficulty to untangle the perceptions that clash with each other.

So thanks for stepping back and viewing this from a position where all flaws could be weighed equally. We as humans are going to project our biases, but its nice to hear from someone like you seeking a more neutral objective starting point. That's great and I hope we see more of that approach which would help ease the emotional entanglements these issues get us tied into! thanks!

 

[BreezeWood]

Religion is no more to blame for the Jews exterminating the Edomites, or for the Catholics burning heretics, than Science is to blame for 140,000 dead in Hiroshima or for an airplane crashing.

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality--which only causes confusion. I find it a good way to define for myself what Religion actually is.

.

I find it a good way to define for myself what Religion actually is.

do tell, as your post contributed nothing already covered in the thread otherwise ...

Religion is no more to blame for the Jews exterminating the Edomites, or for the Catholics burning heretics, than Science is to blame for 140,000 dead in Hiroshima or for an airplane crashing.

as pointed out then you are in agreement the "scriptural" religions are political agendas disguising themselves as religions that is the cause for the persecution and repression their messages have orchestrated throughout history, not (religion).

than Science is to blame for 140,000 dead in Hiroshima ...

science represents existing conditions, lets all applaud the people of Hiroshima for not having Albert Einstein to hold accountable for their letter to FDR to build an A bomb during a world war that was ignited over their city because it was not (science) that did it.

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality

yes, the distinction between the two is so obvious why make it confusing with a substantive statement ...

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear BreezeWood what makes it easy for you to distinguish religion from spirituality, also makes you quick to blame the Scriptures instead of the interpretations, and to blame me for being "disingenuous" by applying the same "quick easy" judgment.

But I would differ and say it's not so easy as you judge these things.

From your viewpoint, you already know and have it all figured out. That "I'm being disingenuous" so that "easily explains" why you can disregard everything I say for convenience. And the "scriptures" are to blame, not the wrongful interpretations, so that makes it easy doesn't it.

Just throw me out and anything I say, and you don't have to correct anything.

Just toss out the entire Bible, and no effort needs to be invested in "distinguishing" the true meanings from the false religions made of it!
Simple, right?

BreezeWood if that was the universal truth and way of everyone , then we'd be done by now. We'd all agree to use the same language, rules and "distinctions" you make and have no conflicts to resolve.

But BW the truth speaks to people in different ways, not just your way, not just mine.

The issue and process is to find how to communicate the same truths, even though we each use different language and terms.

It does not work for everyone to throw out the Bible and change to YOUR way of expressing God's truth or true religion.

That's like asking YOU to throw away your way of teaching it and using the Bible for someone else convenience. If you would not do that for a neighbor , but you would ask your neighbor to throw away their scriptures and use your words to teach the spiritual concepts behind them, then that's what causes conflicts.

From your viewpoint , sure its easy if everyone converted to your language and terms.

But then the next person could ask the same of you. And if you me and others dont agree to switch back and forth using the best language of convenience for each person and situation, well, that's exactly the problems we face now. We dont all agree on a central common system .

So we can either fight for dominance, and be no better or worse than Christians imposing the Bible as the only way to teach Gods laws.

Or we can be like Jesus. And speak to farmers and fishermen using THEIR language and understanding not ours. And speak to Pharisees using THEIR laws. Speak to gentiles using THEIR science and experiences by reason free will and conscience to study learn and decide . and equally speak with Christians using THEIR Bibles if that's how God communicates and reaches them.

God's truth has been compared with water that can fill and flow through any container where it is poured. So whatever vessel people are given, God can use that to carry and distribute the same knowledge and truth in the format needed to reach that audience.

Thank you BreezeWood
I wish it were that simple. But as people stop fearing diversity and embrace the multitude of expressions of Gods truth, it will get easier and easier as we speak and share the truth with love and mutual respect instead of fear and rejection.

 

[cnelsen]

where people of both parties accuse the other of swallowing camels while swatting at gnats.

wise words

 

[emilynghiem]

where people of both parties accuse the other of swallowing camels while swatting at gnats.

wise words

Thanks cnelsen
But if these words are found in Bible Scriptures, doesn't that make them evil???

 

[cnelsen]

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality

yes, the distinction between the two is so obvious why make it confusing with a substantive statement ...[/QUOTE]

do tell, as your post contributed nothing already covered in the thread otherwise ...

I had a long thing written out then realized I don't want to post it here. If you (or anyone) sends me a private message with your email address, I'll send it to you.

 

[RWS]

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

 

[RWS]

And Emily, please, I do not want a few paragraphs about it, because i like you.

 

[RWS]

It is a discussion of why religion is inherently evil, because people are fooled to follow the wrong things. And commit bad acts upon the rest of us based on what they were fooled to do.

Religion is no more inherently evil than Science is or Art is. Humans are frequently evil, yes, and our religious understanding is still very primitive, but those are separate issues.

Sorry dude, but that is completely wrong. Neither science or art gets people to follow them and then kill others that don't like their science or art...

Only religion does. It's what got you here, so just accept it, understand the evil that took place to get you here, and then my hope is that you let it go after realizing the truth.

So peeps that follow religions eventually have to learn to let it go. And follow morality and ethics and faith. If they consider themselves good people. No more following leaders that may tell you to do things that you shouldn't based on a brainwashed belief...

 

[Boss]

It is a discussion of why religion is inherently evil, because people are fooled to follow the wrong things. And commit bad acts upon the rest of us based on what they were fooled to do.

Religion is no more inherently evil than Science is or Art is. Humans are frequently evil, yes, and our religious understanding is still very primitive, but those are separate issues.

Sorry dude, but that is completely wrong. Neither science or art gets people to follow them and then kill others that don't like their science or art...

Only religion does. It's what got you here, so just accept it, understand the evil that took place to get you here, and then my hope is that you let it go after realizing the truth.

So peeps that follow religions eventually have to learn to let it go. And follow morality and ethics and faith. If they consider themselves good people. No more following leaders that may tell you to do things that you shouldn't based on a brainwashed belief...

The thing you're missing is that all morality, ethics and faith is rooted in a spiritual belief in something greater than self. You have decided this is natural and it may be naturally related to the human ability to spirituality connect. However, without a spiritual component there is no foundation for ethics and morality. Things only have meaning when they have purpose. There is no purpose in morality self-serving and self-defined. The very concept of ethics and morality relies on deference to something greater than self or self-interest.

 

[Boss]

Again, you are either an apologist, or a believer, if you follow a religion.

You either apologize for the evil that got you there, or deny it.

It's very simple...

Either one is not the way to be. Both ways are evil.

You are using a very bigoted method to condemn all religion as evil. We can do the same thing with cars... let's focus on all the negative aspects and ignore any good... cars kill people and pollute... people waste money and resources on them and this could be used to feed the hungry or treat the infirmed....therefore, cars are evil!

 

[cnelsen]

Sorry dude, but that is completely wrong. Neither science or art gets people to follow them and then kill others that don't like their science or art...

Our 2003 invasion of Iraq killed, by some estimates, as many as four million Iraqis. How is religion responsible?

 

[RWS]

Listen bossman, I am using logic and truth.

If that somehow hurts your butthole, then that's your problem.

No need to keep trolling something that you have no investment in. Because each time, you make me more invested in kickin your butt. And really, I'm past that stage. But I'm really good at it... So please, heed my warning and STFU.

 

[RWS]

Sorry dude, but that is completely wrong. Neither science or art gets people to follow them and then kill others that don't like their science or art...

Our 2003 invasion of Iraq killed, by some estimates, as many as four million Iraqis. How is religion responsible?

The purpose was to protect the Jewish people, and their interests.

 

[cnelsen]

Sorry dude, but that is completely wrong. Neither science or art gets people to follow them and then kill others that don't like their science or art...

Our 2003 invasion of Iraq killed, by some estimates, as many as four million Iraqis. How is religion responsible?

The purpose was to protect the Jewish people, and their interests.

That's not what we were told. And Jews (a race) will deby it, so how does that war hung on the God I pray to?

 

[BreezeWood]

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality

yes, the distinction between the two is so obvious why make it confusing with a substantive statement ...

do tell, as your post contributed nothing already covered in the thread otherwise ...

I had a long thing written out then realized I don't want to post it here. If you (or anyone) sends me a private message with your email address, I'll send it to you.

[/QUOTE]
.

I find it a good way to define for myself what Religion actually is.

do tell, as your post contributed nothing already covered in the thread otherwise ...

I had a long thing written out then realized I don't want to post it here. If you (or anyone) sends me a private message with your email address, I'll send it to you.

for myself I am interested though for public discussion, stating religion without disclosing your definition sortof negates your post ...

It's important to recognize this so we aren't forced into the morass of trying to distinguish between religion and spirituality--which only causes confusion.

yes, the distinction between the two is so obvious why make it confusing with a substantive statement ...

same thing and I was being sarcastic - there's not a condensed version of religion people can work with (you), mine is that religion is secular the same as other natural laws and is of itself not what is important, otherwise ...