Zone1 Religion is not needed if a "golden rule" is valued

[Blues Man]

The love and forgiveness was always there, along with nearly infinite patience. Only when man became seriously mired in sin did He bring judgement, and He'll do it again. And, of course, there will be the usual suspects whining and wailing that it isn't fair, despite ignoring a life time of warnings.

No it wasn't. He wiped out countless people that pissed him off including children. There was no forgiveness there was death and punishment for eternity.

 

[hadit]

No it wasn't. He wiped out countless people that pissed him off including children. There was no forgiveness there was death and punishment for eternity.

Do you have any idea how long He put up with the evil first, or are you just fixated on the idea of judgement?

 

[Blues Man]

Do you have any idea how long He put up with the evil first, or are you just fixated on the idea of judgement?

How long would you put up with misbehaving children before you killed them?

Sure the life of a mere mortal is nothing but the blink of an eye to an immortal god.

Our lives are to an immortal god what the lives of mayflies are to us.

 

[hadit]

How long would you put up with misbehaving children before you killed them?

Sure the life of a mere mortal is nothing but the blink of an eye to an immortal god.

And when generation after generation ignores God's clear warnings, He brings judgement. I know a lot of non-believers have a really hard time with that, but they won't do what they need to in order to escape it.

Our lives are to an immortal god what the lives of mayflies are to us.

You sound like you think you can advise God as to when to bring judgement and what kind of judgement to bring.

 

[Blues Man]

And when generation after generation ignores God's clear warnings, He brings judgement. I know a lot of non-believers have a really hard time with that, but they won't do what they need to in order to escape it.

You sound like you think you can advise God as to when to bring judgement and what kind of judgement to bring.

No I am saying the god you worship has a lot of human characteristics

It's jealous, it gets angry, it murders, it's vengeful

It's all the things it tells you not to be

So maybe it's better if we look for a better example of who to emulate.

 

[Woodznutz]

Any god that needs to command people to love it or threaten them with destruction if they don't isn't a god that I want to be affiliated with

Those commands are actually instructions. Teachers today 'command' their students to learn on threat of poor grades.

 

[Woodznutz]

No it wasn't. He wiped out countless people that pissed him off including children. There was no forgiveness there was death and punishment for eternity.

Eternal judgment is a future event.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

There are MANY religions, and most are thousands of years old when few were able to read, and even fewer understood scientific knowledge about the universe that is evident today.
Which religion is best? Why would you choose a religion when its leaders don't understand natural, scientific reality?

Empathy and a golden rule is all one needs to be "ethical".

Methusalah MethHeads

The argument that Jehovah couldn't make the ancient Hebrews believe in the actual facts of Earth's age is illogical. His self-appointed writers made them believe in people living for hundreds of years and many other amazing stories.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Who makes the golden rule?

As you stated, there are many religions and beliefs.

Whoever Has the Gold Makes Religion's Rules

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Religion is a crutch

Viciously Defending Their Connection to an Imaginary Higher Power

Of course, you don't want to kick cripples' crutches away—unless they use them to bash you over the head, like the Christofascists are doing.

 

[DukeU]

Whoever Has the Gold Makes Religion's Rules

Plenty of gold to go around.

 

[Blues Man]

Those commands are actually instructions. Teachers today 'command' their students to learn on threat of poor grades.

Yeah because a grade is the same thing as everlasting divine retribution

 

[hadit]

No I am saying the god you worship has a lot of human characteristics

It's jealous, it gets angry, it murders, it's vengeful

It's all the things it tells you not to be

So maybe it's better if we look for a better example of who to emulate.

Does a cop have the authority to seize you, place restraints on you and put you in a jail cell until someone bails you out?
Does a judge have the authority to order you to be executed in the manner he chooses?
Did your father have the authority to prevent you from leaving the house when you were a small child and wanted to play outside in the street?
Did your mother have the authority to prepare foods you didn't like?

The point to all these is, of course, that authority grants someone the freedom to do things that those under that authority cannot do, whether those under it think it's fair or not. Does the executioner who flips the switch murder the condemned? You're trying to put God on the same plane as man, and that simply is wrong.

 

[Blues Man]

Does a cop have the authority to seize you, place restraints on you and put you in a jail cell until someone bails you out?
Does a judge have the authority to order you to be executed in the manner he chooses?
Did your father have the authority to prevent you from leaving the house when you were a small child and wanted to play outside in the street?
Did your mother have the authority to prepare foods you didn't like?

The point to all these is, of course, that authority grants someone the freedom to do things that those under that authority cannot do, whether those under it think it's fair or not. Does the executioner who flips the switch murder the condemned? You're trying to put God on the same plane as man, and that simply is wrong.

Only if that cop has legally defined cause. He can't do it because he feels like arresting me.

And not not every judge can order an execution because some states prohibit it.

And I'm a grown ass man so I no longer have to listen to anyone else. And My father was a dead beat loser who I only met once when I was about 9 or 10

And what you are ignoring is that none of those authorities that people have created can arrest or kill me for the crimes another person committed.

 

[hadit]

Only if that cop has legally defined cause. He can't do it because he feels like arresting me.

Actually, he can arrest you and have you held until a bail hearing, then force you to come back to court and defend yourself.

And not not every judge can order an execution because some states prohibit it.

Irrelevant to the point, which is that a judge can order things to be done to you that you are not allowed to do to others. You cannot, for example, force another person to pay money, he can. You can't order that another person be restrained in a locked room for years, he can.

And I'm a grown ass man so I no longer have to listen to anyone else. And My father was a dead beat loser who I only met once when I was about 9 or 10

Irrelevant. You had a parental authority that was allowed to do things to you that you are not allowed to do to others.

And what you are ignoring is that none of those authorities that people have created can arrest or kill me for the crimes another person committed.

Absolutely they can arrest or kill you for crimes another person has committed. Plenty of people have spent long terms in prison, claiming they are innocent the entire time and it didn't matter to the authority that put them there and kept them there.

The point is, whether you think it's fair or just or anything else, authority allows other people to do things to you that you are not allowed to do. The executioner is not put on trial for killing the condemned, the prison guard is not put on trial for unlawful restraint, and so on.

 

[Blues Man]

Actually, he can arrest you and have you held until a bail hearing, then force you to come back to court and defend yourself.

Irrelevant to the point, which is that a judge can order things to be done to you that you are not allowed to do to others. You cannot, for example, force another person to pay money, he can. You can't order that another person be restrained in a locked room for years, he can.

Irrelevant. You had a parental authority that was allowed to do things to you that you are not allowed to do to others.

Absolutely they can arrest or kill you for crimes another person has committed. Plenty of people have spent long terms in prison, claiming they are innocent the entire time and it didn't matter to the authority that put them there and kept them there.

The point is, whether you think it's fair or just or anything else, authority allows other people to do things to you that you are not allowed to do. The executioner is not put on trial for killing the condemned, the prison guard is not put on trial for unlawful restraint, and so on.

If there is no cause I will not be subject to a bail hearing.

And the point you are missing is that we humans set up that authority and we have built in protections to stop that authority from overstepping.

And no I really didn't have any parental authority when I was a kid. I pretty much raised myself from the age of 7 until my mother overdosed when I was 14.

And those cases on innocents in jail are still the exception to the rule. It's actually one of the reasons states have banned the death penalty

And the authority I acknowledge as a part of society has limits and checks and can be changed by the people. It ain't perfect but then again nothing is.

And the thing there is no judge can just kill anyone he wants either. There is no absolute authority given to any one institution.

 

[hadit]

If there is no cause I will not be subject to a bail hearing.

And the point you are missing is that we humans set up that authority and we have built in protections to stop that authority from overstepping.

And no I really didn't have any parental authority when I was a kid. I pretty much raised myself from the age of 7 until my mother overdosed when I was 14.

And those cases on innocents in jail are still the exception to the rule. It's actually one of the reasons states have banned the death penalty

And the authority I acknowledge as a part of society has limits and checks and can be changed by the people. It ain't perfect but then again nothing is.

And the thing there is no judge can just kill anyone he wants either. There is no absolute authority given to any one institution.

It is an imperfect analogy, but the point still stands that even humans are granted authority to do things that would get other humans in severe trouble. To make it even more definitive, if you have an ant hill in your lawn, you have perfect authority to destroy it, to mess with it, to kill individual ants or all the ants in the hill. No one will stop you, no one will say you don't have the right to do whatever the heck you want to do with it. The ants could not stop you, whether they could complain about it or not.

 

[Woodznutz]

Yeah because a grade is the same thing as everlasting divine retribution

God doesn't do that. You either live forever or you're dead forever.

 

[Mashmont]

How long would you put up with misbehaving children before you killed them?

Sure the life of a mere mortal is nothing but the blink of an eye to an immortal god.

Our lives are to an immortal god what the lives of mayflies are to us.

I have no idea why atheists believe there should be no consequences to their conduct on earth when there are consequences to every other aspect of life. Natural consequences are never sugar coated and sometimes brutal, yet atheists think God should be like some new age permissive leftwing mom where anything goes.

 

[Blues Man]

It is an imperfect analogy, but the point still stands that even humans are granted authority to do things that would get other humans in severe trouble. To make it even more definitive, if you have an ant hill in your lawn, you have perfect authority to destroy it, to mess with it, to kill individual ants or all the ants in the hill. No one will stop you, no one will say you don't have the right to do whatever the heck you want to do with it. The ants could not stop you, whether they could complain about it or not.

Granted by other people by agreement and that authority can be rescinded if abused.

This not any analogy that relates to any gods