Replace the ACA with single payer

[Andylusion]

Well what do you mean by "private healthcare association" here?

Replicate the single payer model, but make it voluntary and independent of politicians. Have individuals that want to participate pay into it in order to drive down costs, and leave out those that do not want to participate.

You also do not cause collateral damage under this solution. Looking at the NHS in the UK, some individuals end up paying more in taxes than they save on healthcare. Even if they are a minority, they do not deserve to be forced into a system that hurts them financially.

That doesn't make sense. You can't replicate a single payer model, if it isn't single payer.

If you leave out individuals who do not want to participate, then I would assume they are paying for their own care..... when means it isn't single payer.

And again, I already shot down the claim it would drive down costs. Repeating a failed argument doesn't make it legitimate again.

 

[Andylusion]

Nah. First, there has never been an example where single payer has been cheaper.

I never said there was

Here's the problem with your theory.....

I am not even going to bother reading your ridiculous wall, which is an obvious attempt at overcompensating.

You don't even know what my theory was. I never advocated for nationalized single payer. You are an intellectually dishonest idiot that is engaging in strawman fallacy.

So you can't answer, won't answer, and insults are the best you can do. Got it.

 

[Onyx]

So you can't answer, won't answer, and insults are the best you can do. Got it.

You want me to answer a question directed at an argument I never made, because you are an intellectually dishonest idiot that resorts to strawman fallacy when your simple mind cannot understand a simple position.

Until you stop putting words in my mouth, I'll pass on responding to your dishonest strawman arguments. In the meantime, work on being less of a moron.

 

[Onyx]

That doesn't make sense. You can't replicate a single payer model, if it isn't single payer.

Yes you can, and I just explained how. It is voluntary collective bargaining scheme, as opposed to a non-consensual nationalized single payer system.

If you leave out individuals who do not want to participate, then I would assume they are paying for their own care..... when means it isn't single payer.

That's why I called it a healthcare association. The only real difference is that this is a voluntary alternative to drive down costs.

 

[Billy000]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

You apparently don't understand the concept of "for profit motive". That's why our healthcare has always been a complete joke. You can complain all you want about ObamaCare. It wouldn't change the fact that healthcare system has always been unaffordable to the poor and shrinking middle class.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well what do you mean by "private healthcare association" here?

Replicate the single payer model, but make it voluntary and independent of politicians. Have individuals that want to participate pay into it in order to drive down costs, and leave out those that do not want to participate.

You also do not cause collateral damage under this solution. Looking at the NHS in the UK, some individuals end up paying more in taxes than they save on healthcare. Even if they are a minority, they do not deserve to be forced into a system that hurts them financially.

But it doesn't work. Because this then leaves people choosing between paying in or feeding their families. It doesn't work because many people don't feel that healthcare should be something you don't get.

This isn't something normal, this is people's health we're talking about, and why should a person who is richer get better healthcare? I mean if I work 60 hours a week why should I get worse healthcare than someone who just happens to be rich?

Yes, some people end up paying more in taxes. This people will earn more because of the stability of the country, some will own their own businesses and rely on the healthy workforce to make them money, so they pay more.

Yes, they deserve to be forced into a system which "hurts them financially" but also allows them to get rich.

 

[Onyx]

But it doesn't work. Because this then leaves people choosing between paying in or feeding their families.

So your solution is to force their hand and let their family starve?

It doesn't work because many people don't feel that healthcare should be something you don't get.

Then they shouldn't be forced to get it. It isn't your business to control others peoples lives.

Yes, they deserve to be forced into a system which "hurts them financially" but also allows them to get rich.

So you are one of those 'it's for their own good' types? Good ideas don't need to be forced. You should spend less time terrorizing your fellow man with coercion and threats of violence, and start convincing them to sign on voluntarily to your community projects.

A society that survives through violence and intimidation isn't worth preserving. It is inhuman.

 

[Onyx]

You apparently don't understand the concept of "for profit motive".

Nationalized single payer makes certain special interest groups rich. Money and politics are inseparable. Politics is a game of power, and money is the currency of power.

 

[theory980]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

Let's do it.

 

[there4eyeM]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Absolutely incorrect. France's system, for example, is objectively rated above the U.S., and it works very well.

 

[there4eyeM]

Interesting that certain individuals place money above human suffering.

 

[francoHFW]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

If you like their system so much, feel free to pack your shit and move to one of them. Although with your psychological problems I doubt they'd take ya.

Troll.

 

[francoHFW]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Absolutely incorrect. France's system, for example, is objectively rated above the U.S., and it works very well.

And about half the cost. Gop dupes!

 

[ScienceRocks]

Interesting that certain individuals place money above human suffering.

It is truly sick....Seriously, Canada, Mexico, Germany and many others cost about 1/2 per capita ours but somehow they'd rather see people suffer...I am sorry liberterians that I don't like to see suffering but I just feel it is cold to want a profit based system when hospitals, insurance and pharmaceuticals already screw people over by jacking their prices through the roof.

 

[OKTexas]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

If you like their system so much, feel free to pack your shit and move to one of them. Although with your psychological problems I doubt they'd take ya.

Troll.

Thank you.

 

[there4eyeM]

Humans are social animals, and things like fire fighters, police, education, defense, trash collection and much more are all confronted collectively, socially. Some people seem so allergic to the word 'social' that it becomes impossible to speak about things. Just as 'capitalism' finally was reigned in by social consciousness, the extreme forms of 'socialism' have been seen for what they were and the ideology restrained. Ultimately, no system can be tolerated that puts itself above people.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

You apparently don't understand the concept of "for profit motive". That's why our healthcare has always been a complete joke. You can complain all you want about ObamaCare. It wouldn't change the fact that healthcare system has always been unaffordable to the poor and shrinking middle class.

I do understand the the concept, the issue here is that YOU don't. With profit as a motive, goods and services become inherently better and more affordable, entirely because they want money. A lot of the confusion from the left comes from the fact that they don't understand how the economy works. A business exists to fulfill a demand, and as that demand is fulfilled, and demand grows, that business grows. With the existence of competition, a a business has to satisfy or lose its customers, which causes them to provide the best product or service at the best price. That's why the private sector is better in every way at providing a service, because they have motivation to do so, and that motivation is money. The government already makes money off of the people in the form of taxes, they therefor have no reason to provide a good product at a reasonable price. You can't switch, because they become a monopoly, and even if you could, you'd still be paying for it.

As far as the shrinking middle class goes, I imagine there would be fewer poor people if your party would stop providing incentive to be poor. Those who are poor put themselves there, and they deserve to be there because of that, and because they refuse to pull themselves back up. If you want to help the poor so much, give them jobs, and stop using Federal Aid to shrink their wages.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Absolutely incorrect. France's system, for example, is objectively rated above the U.S., and it works very well.

And about half the cost. Gop dupes!

I wonder what the comparison would be if your party hadn't destroyed our system in the first place.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

So how is it that it works elsewhere?

What you're telling me is the US govt and state govts are inept and useless and don't work for the people at all, whereas they do in other countries.

I see you and other Liberals are still confused by the meaning of the word "Works".

I'm surprised you figured that out so quickly. Yes, the US Government, State Governments, and every Government in the world, are completely inept. Government has always been inept, is inept, and will always be inept. Even on the off chance one was not, the same person does not control the government permanently, at some point someone you don't like will control the government, and it'll be inept. One of the nearly infinite number of reasons the Liberal fantasy of the government controlling literally everything doesn't work. Ask Russia or Germany.

How many Canadians used to come to the US for healthcare?

You're saying it wouldn't be cheaper, but you're not providing any evidence.

The US healthcare system takes in the most amount of money of any system in the world per capita and you're telling me it wouldn't be cheaper.

How much money goes into corruption? The estimates are 3% of US GDP

https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/msparrow/documents--in use/Corruption in Health Care--The US Experience--TI Global Report on Corruption--2006--pp16-22.pdf

Healthcare expenditure "represents 15.3 per cent of the country’s GDP, up from 5.7 per cent in 1965, and 8.8 per cent in 1980."

"Despite the extraordinary level of spending, health care economists have traditionally paid very little attention to corruption, fraud, waste and abuse in the US health care delivery system. They do not factor it into their cost models, they say, because ‘there is no data on that’."

However what is not included in corruption are the legitimate ways of squeezing money out of the system.

Number one is insurance companies.

Do Dropped Patients Mean $$$ for Insurers?

"The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion,"

Just five insurance companies had profits of $12.2 billion. In the UK this is simply not necessary. On top of the profits you have the workers who are paid, the overheads that are paid and all of it is for something completely unnecessary.

According to this, 7% of healthcare spending goes on insurance companies. Seeing as the government paid 64.3% of all healthcare, this 7% is actually far larger amount of private health insurance.

Here are other things which cost a lot, lot more.

The US spends 17.5% of GDP per year on healthcare.


United States GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News

US GDP is $17,947 billion in 2015.
This means healthcare spending is $3140 billion a year.
This means healthcare insurance companies are wasting $219 billion a year on doing something that is completely unnecessary. The chart puts it at $190 billion a year.

Add up all these costs and you get $765 billion a year wasted.

Now, that's $2,550 per person per year. You have a family of four and they are, on average, paying $12,000 just for corruption in health. Woopie.

Now, UK GDP is $2.849 billion, and they spend 8.5% on healthcare, so that means they spend $2.42 billion on healthcare, which is $3,725 per person per year on healthcare. That's only slightly more than an American is paying for the cost of corruption.

How is the US not going to save money? Seriously if so much is going on corruption because of the system, then you can't lose.

Obamacare: Before and After - Discover the Networks
I read through that, like, three times. It told me absolutely nothing. The fact is that the government shouldn't be paying for any part of healthcare in general, that makes privatized healthcare inherently better for that reason alone. If state lines were opened, it would cost even less than it did previously for the people, and hey, you wouldn't be having your money stolen by the government to pay for it for random people. On top of that, the government would raise taxes to compensate for the extra cost, and plunge further into debt. We all already know this, Liberals just don't care because they prefer not to have jobs and pay for things themselves~

No, I'm someone who has USED some of these systems, I know they can work. What do you have? Nothing. You read through it three times and still you have nothing.

You say the govt shouldn't pay. But we were talking about something else. You make silly claims, like it will be more expensive, I prove it won't be, then you say there is nothing.

Sorry, but your post is a waste of time with the usual "liberals this and liberals that" nonsense.

Apparently you haven't used the systems if you think they can work. History has proven that the government is totally incompetent, and common sense dictates that if a Business makes money off of you regardless of performance, and that if you have no other options, there's no incentive to work properly.

It WILL be more expensive, the other Nations implementing this failed system have higher taxes, faster growing debt, or both.

It's not nonsense if it's totally accurate.

What a ridiculous statement. You claim to be a 15 year old, so what's your experience exactly? You have the nerve to tell me that you know my experiences better than I know my own. Seriously, grow up.

More that I either think you're making it up, you've never experienced good healthcare, or you're easily impressed. It's also possible that you're impressed by default, so long as your overlords, the government, are in charge of something, and 'big evil business' isn't. I think you really just don't like the idea of your mortal enemy, Capitalism, thriving in any way, shape, or form.

 

[BluesLegend]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.