Replace the ACA with single payer

[EvilCat Breath]

It is always surprising to see that people who want socialized health care actually think they will get any health care at all.

Under socialized medicine there is no incentive to do well. You get your salary if your patients die, and you won't be overworked.

 

[frigidweirdo]

But it doesn't work. Because this then leaves people choosing between paying in or feeding their families.

So your solution is to force their hand and let their family starve?

It doesn't work because many people don't feel that healthcare should be something you don't get.

Then they shouldn't be forced to get it. It isn't your business to control others peoples lives.

Yes, they deserve to be forced into a system which "hurts them financially" but also allows them to get rich.

So you are one of those 'it's for their own good' types? Good ideas don't need to be forced. You should spend less time terrorizing your fellow man with coercion and threats of violence, and start convincing them to sign on voluntarily to your community projects.

A society that survives through violence and intimidation isn't worth preserving. It is inhuman.

But they won't starve. Because of they don't have a job, they'll still get healthcare, if they can't pay for healthcare because they don't have a job, they'll still get healthcare. When they're working they'll pay taxes which contribute to this.

Other things I would implement would encourage people to work more than exist right now, however this isn't part of this topic so there's no need for more than I just said.

You say good ideas don't need to be forced. I think you're wrong. Some very good ideas are forced on people daily, and some bad ones too. I'm not an anarchist. I understand that a lot of people don't understand the impact of what is happening to them. Russians were horrified when Peter the Great moved the calendar to the same as western Europe because they thought they had lost days of their life. Clearly that wasn't the case. (then the west went and moved their calendar and the Russians didn't dare do it again.)
Vaccinations are often seen as negative by people who don't understand them, yet they've managed to reduce or eradicated lots of diseases that killed people.

The thing is, in the US, there are people who have to choose between eating and healthcare, in the UK there isn't. It's not terrorism, it's humanity.

 

[BluesLegend]

Why is the left constantly looking for free handouts paid for by other people?

 

[there4eyeM]

One wonders how humanity ever survived when for the vast majority of its history money and 'capitalism' didn't even exist.

 

[BluesLegend]

One wonders how humanity ever survived when for the vast majority of its history money and 'capitalism' didn't even exist.

Slave labor.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

One wonders how humanity ever survived when for the vast majority of its history money and 'capitalism' didn't even exist.

They lived in social groups, members of that group had specific tasks that they would perform for the good of the group. some might hunt or fish, some might be out picking edible plants, you would have those that were responsible for preparing meals or watching kids while others did what they did. What you did not have was people in those groups that did nothing and just showed up at the dinner stump expecting to be fed because they were hungry.
Then you had trade between groups, maybe shells, maybe some hand tools etc... but there was trade, and in our terms what they used for trade could be looked at as money of sorts. Maybe one group lived where hunting was plentiful and they had an excess of furs, and another group lived where they could get quantities of rock used to make arrows, they might trade the rock for the furs. But again, that created specific tasks, or jobs that had to be performed, and nobody just sat back waiting for dinner while doing nothing.
Its a wonder how anyone thinks that society will continue to exist when we now have so many that expect to live off of the labor of others while doing nothing to contribute.

 

[there4eyeM]

...and the entire 'derivatives' market with its leaches is what?

 

[frigidweirdo]

It is always surprising to see that people who want socialized health care actually think they will get any health care at all.

Under socialized medicine there is no incentive to do well. You get your salary if your patients die, and you won't be overworked.

Except anyone who has experienced knows that you are wrong.

It's so easy to come on here with the same lame excuses for not doing something, it would be something else to PROVE your point. I bet you can't.

The US spends TWICE as much as other countries as a percentage of GDP.

Like I've said before, the US spends $2,500 per person on corruption whole the UK spends $3,7000 per person on the whole of healthcare.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2003/02/Int_Health_Comp.pdf

The US has half the number of physicians as Italy, less than Germany, France and Sweden (all from around the 1999/2000 time, the UK probably increased that number to more than the US over time).

New Zealand, Germany and Sweden all had more nurses than the US.

Many countries had more hospital admissions.

The number of hospital beds is more than double in Germany than the US, and even the UK which was in crisis had more beds than the US.

A few countries had more child immunization than the US.

But life expectancy is higher in all of the countries in the survey than the USA. The US had the highest levels of infant mortality. The second highest levels of deaths. The US was in the middle for deaths from cancer, with Italy, Australia, Sweden and Japan having lower levels. The US seems to have the highest level of lung cancer deaths. Only three countries have worse circulatory disease deaths.

Weirdest of all, the argument I got was that private healthcare they don't just kick you out, yet acute care length of stay, the US is actually quite low, whereas even the UK which was struggling at the time had a longer time for stay.

So the US spends loads of money, but does it give a better service to the people? No, just to the rich, the poor get a much worse service.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So how is it that it works elsewhere?

What you're telling me is the US govt and state govts are inept and useless and don't work for the people at all, whereas they do in other countries.

I see you and other Liberals are still confused by the meaning of the word "Works".

I'm surprised you figured that out so quickly. Yes, the US Government, State Governments, and every Government in the world, are completely inept. Government has always been inept, is inept, and will always be inept. Even on the off chance one was not, the same person does not control the government permanently, at some point someone you don't like will control the government, and it'll be inept. One of the nearly infinite number of reasons the Liberal fantasy of the government controlling literally everything doesn't work. Ask Russia or Germany.

How many Canadians used to come to the US for healthcare?

You're saying it wouldn't be cheaper, but you're not providing any evidence.

The US healthcare system takes in the most amount of money of any system in the world per capita and you're telling me it wouldn't be cheaper.

How much money goes into corruption? The estimates are 3% of US GDP

https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/msparrow/documents--in use/Corruption in Health Care--The US Experience--TI Global Report on Corruption--2006--pp16-22.pdf

Healthcare expenditure "represents 15.3 per cent of the country’s GDP, up from 5.7 per cent in 1965, and 8.8 per cent in 1980."

"Despite the extraordinary level of spending, health care economists have traditionally paid very little attention to corruption, fraud, waste and abuse in the US health care delivery system. They do not factor it into their cost models, they say, because ‘there is no data on that’."

However what is not included in corruption are the legitimate ways of squeezing money out of the system.

Number one is insurance companies.

Do Dropped Patients Mean $$$ for Insurers?

"The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion,"

Just five insurance companies had profits of $12.2 billion. In the UK this is simply not necessary. On top of the profits you have the workers who are paid, the overheads that are paid and all of it is for something completely unnecessary.

According to this, 7% of healthcare spending goes on insurance companies. Seeing as the government paid 64.3% of all healthcare, this 7% is actually far larger amount of private health insurance.

Here are other things which cost a lot, lot more.

The US spends 17.5% of GDP per year on healthcare.


United States GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News

US GDP is $17,947 billion in 2015.
This means healthcare spending is $3140 billion a year.
This means healthcare insurance companies are wasting $219 billion a year on doing something that is completely unnecessary. The chart puts it at $190 billion a year.

Add up all these costs and you get $765 billion a year wasted.

Now, that's $2,550 per person per year. You have a family of four and they are, on average, paying $12,000 just for corruption in health. Woopie.

Now, UK GDP is $2.849 billion, and they spend 8.5% on healthcare, so that means they spend $2.42 billion on healthcare, which is $3,725 per person per year on healthcare. That's only slightly more than an American is paying for the cost of corruption.

How is the US not going to save money? Seriously if so much is going on corruption because of the system, then you can't lose.

Obamacare: Before and After - Discover the Networks
I read through that, like, three times. It told me absolutely nothing. The fact is that the government shouldn't be paying for any part of healthcare in general, that makes privatized healthcare inherently better for that reason alone. If state lines were opened, it would cost even less than it did previously for the people, and hey, you wouldn't be having your money stolen by the government to pay for it for random people. On top of that, the government would raise taxes to compensate for the extra cost, and plunge further into debt. We all already know this, Liberals just don't care because they prefer not to have jobs and pay for things themselves~

No, I'm someone who has USED some of these systems, I know they can work. What do you have? Nothing. You read through it three times and still you have nothing.

You say the govt shouldn't pay. But we were talking about something else. You make silly claims, like it will be more expensive, I prove it won't be, then you say there is nothing.

Sorry, but your post is a waste of time with the usual "liberals this and liberals that" nonsense.

Apparently you haven't used the systems if you think they can work. History has proven that the government is totally incompetent, and common sense dictates that if a Business makes money off of you regardless of performance, and that if you have no other options, there's no incentive to work properly.

It WILL be more expensive, the other Nations implementing this failed system have higher taxes, faster growing debt, or both.

It's not nonsense if it's totally accurate.

What a ridiculous statement. You claim to be a 15 year old, so what's your experience exactly? You have the nerve to tell me that you know my experiences better than I know my own. Seriously, grow up.

More that I either think you're making it up, you've never experienced good healthcare, or you're easily impressed. It's also possible that you're impressed by default, so long as your overlords, the government, are in charge of something, and 'big evil business' isn't. I think you really just don't like the idea of your mortal enemy, Capitalism, thriving in any way, shape, or form.

Ah, so if you don't agree with me you just pretend that I make it up.

I've posted loads of statistics, and your response is to shrug it all off and disagree. Basically you come on here, you've decided what you want to believe, you don't understand what is being said to you, you don't care, you just dismiss anything and everything you disagree with.

So what's the point of coming on here then? You'll never convince anyone because you never back anything up, you never make good solid arguments, and dismiss anything you don't want to agree with.

Perhaps it's that I've seen things work, and I've seen things not work, and I've seen the problems, look at the statistics, understood the issue, and accept the reality.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

You apparently don't understand the concept of "for profit motive". That's why our healthcare has always been a complete joke. You can complain all you want about ObamaCare. It wouldn't change the fact that healthcare system has always been unaffordable to the poor and shrinking middle class.

I do understand the the concept, the issue here is that YOU don't. With profit as a motive, goods and services become inherently better and more affordable, entirely because they want money. A lot of the confusion from the left comes from the fact that they don't understand how the economy works. A business exists to fulfill a demand, and as that demand is fulfilled, and demand grows, that business grows. With the existence of competition, a a business has to satisfy or lose its customers, which causes them to provide the best product or service at the best price. That's why the private sector is better in every way at providing a service, because they have motivation to do so, and that motivation is money. The government already makes money off of the people in the form of taxes, they therefor have no reason to provide a good product at a reasonable price. You can't switch, because they become a monopoly, and even if you could, you'd still be paying for it.

As far as the shrinking middle class goes, I imagine there would be fewer poor people if your party would stop providing incentive to be poor. Those who are poor put themselves there, and they deserve to be there because of that, and because they refuse to pull themselves back up. If you want to help the poor so much, give them jobs, and stop using Federal Aid to shrink their wages.

More affordable?

Did you not read what I wrote?

$2,500 per person goes on CORRUPTION and WASTE in the US system, while the UK system costs $3,700 per person for the whole healthcare system.

How can someone come on here and say this is more affordable? The US has the most expensive healthcare in the world. This is because private companies are making profits out of nothing, they're cheating people out of money all the time.

 

[Onyx]

But they won't starve.

Really? So if you moneys tight, the NHS will let you opt out of your dues? Of course not.

You say good ideas don't need to be forced. I think you're wrong.

You are wrong. Human society voluntarily adapts to good ideas when they are advocated for honestly and consistently. An idea which needs to be made mandatory is done so because it is flawed and contestable.

I'm not an anarchist. I understand that a lot of people don't understand the impact of what is happening to them.

What you are is dangerous. Your attitude is largely responsible for how inhuman and unloving modern society has become. I'll be honest, I detest your species.

In your world, people are mere toys for you to play with and experiment on. You treat society as a playground for your ideas, no matter how reckless they happen to be. You will make excuses to justify your policies. Collateral damage doesn't matter as long as you can write your ideas off as being a general success. Well reality check: The human race is not your plaything.

Can you honestly tell me that you have all of your own shit figured out? If not, then what gives you the right to dictate the beat for other people? I know the answer: It makes you feel like you have power over others. I can only imagine the dreams of grandeur trapped inside that head of yours, and how all your little policies play into the fantasy.

Vaccinations are often seen as negative by people who don't understand them, yet they've managed to reduce or eradicated lots of diseases that killed people.

I understand vaccinations. I understand that chickenpox, measles, and the common cold would all be fatal to human beings had vaccines existed 300 years ago.

That's hardly the point though. I'm just wondering when that slippery slope of power, sanctimony, and control is going to end.

The thing is, in the US, there are people who have to choose between eating and healthcare, in the UK there isn't. It's not terrorism, it's humanity.

Ha, what a fucking joke! There is nothing human about it. You can talk to the people that have been screwed over and scammed by the NHS and the crony bureaucrats that run it. Even you cannot deny that the NHS has resulted in collateral damage, which is simply unacceptable.

Until you let human nature play out, you are going to live in an inhuman chaotic society. What your kind has created is human nature gone wrong, and few are willing to fix the messes that your kind has created.

 

[frigidweirdo]

But they won't starve.

Really? So if you moneys tight, the NHS will let you opt out of your dues? Of course not.

You say good ideas don't need to be forced. I think you're wrong.

You are wrong. Human society voluntarily adapts to good ideas when they are advocated for honestly and consistently. An idea which needs to be made mandatory is done so because it is flawed and contestable.

I'm not an anarchist. I understand that a lot of people don't understand the impact of what is happening to them.

What you are is dangerous. Your attitude is largely responsible for how inhuman and unloving modern society has become. I'll be honest, I detest your species.

In your world, people are mere toys for you to play with and experiment on. You treat society as a playground for your ideas, no matter how reckless they happen to be. You will make excuses to justify your policies. Collateral damage doesn't matter as long as you can write your ideas off as being a general success. Well reality check: The human race is not your plaything.

Can you honestly tell me that you have all of your own shit figured out? If not, then what gives you the right to dictate the beat for other people? I know the answer: It makes you feel like you have power over others. I can only imagine the dreams of grandeur trapped inside that head of yours, and how all your little policies play into the fantasy.

Vaccinations are often seen as negative by people who don't understand them, yet they've managed to reduce or eradicated lots of diseases that killed people.

I understand vaccinations. I understand that chickenpox, measles, and the common cold would all be fatal to human beings had vaccines existed 300 years ago.

That's hardly the point though. I'm just wondering when that slippery slope of power, sanctimony, and control is going to end.

The thing is, in the US, there are people who have to choose between eating and healthcare, in the UK there isn't. It's not terrorism, it's humanity.

Ha, what a fucking joke! There is nothing human about it. You can talk to the people that have been screwed over and scammed by the NHS and the crony bureaucrats that run it. Even you cannot deny that the NHS has resulted in collateral damage, which is simply unacceptable.

Until you let human nature play out, you are going to live in an inhuman chaotic society. What your kind has created is human nature gone wrong, and few are willing to fix the messes that your kind has created.

If money's tight, you probably won't be paying taxes. If you've made the decision to over budget yourself, you're still going to get healthcare not matter how badly you organize your finances.

You're wrong, humanity doesn't always go for the good things. We've shown this time and time and time and time again. Honesty? Come on, the two candidates for president in the US weren't exactly the most honest people in the world, and yet people are gushing over them. Why? Because they're humans and make a lot of flawed decisions, that's why.

You think I'm dangerous, maybe I think you're dangerous.

No, your view of me is wrong, you don't know me, you don't understand me. You have just presented a picture that you can attack, regardless of whether it fits me or not.

You understand vaccinations, does everyone? Do you think a 3 year old child understands? Do you think society should force vaccinations upon children who don't understand what they are other than some bastard is trying to stick a sharp needle in my arm?

I'm like you, I'm wary of power. The US has gone way over the edge of giving too much power to the rich, and that from starting out with the intention of giving people the power. What went wrong?

Listen, freedom is not anarchy and it's not fascism or communism. It's somewhere in between. If crime is too high, I'm not free, so measures are taken that are restrictive that are aimed at reducing crime. There's a balance. I've been to places that are restrictive, where the police are constantly asking for your passport and where you sure as hell don't give it to them, but if you don't you end up in prison, so you have to go to get your passport photocopies and notarized so they can't get you, that isn't freedom.

It's always a balance. Are you free if everyone can choose to get vaccinations? Not really, because outbreaks of things can happen and this then causes problems in society that you'll end up having to pay for. The reason people vote is so that we can get as close to this balance as possible, problem in the US is the system needs a massive overhaul in order to bring it back. But there are still going to be laws that require you to pay taxes, obey the laws or else go to prison, and there are always going to be things that are forced on people like education and certain health requirements

You might think this is restrictive, but it's probably because you've never been anywhere restrictive.

Take China. The CCP, many people look on them as bad. They do do bad things, but then so does the US govt. They outlawed the binding of feet. Women had to have small feet to get a good husband in the past, they saw this as bad, without the CCP this wouldn't have changed. Do you think people should be pressured within society to bind the feet of their daughters, or do you think it's better that the govt forbids this? I think the latter.

You talk about things having gone wrong, yet the US is where everything is going really wrong and nothing is changing because there are too many people in society who refuse to change things for the better. They are suspicious of their govt, and yet support their govt's power to do things and cause suspicion. It's bizarre.

 

[bripat9643]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

Hillary lost the election, dumbass. Trump isn't going to propose single payer. Learn to live with that.

 

[francoHFW]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.

Single payer means it comes out of taxes. Tough shytte for the rich.

 

[francoHFW]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Absolutely incorrect. France's system, for example, is objectively rated above the U.S., and it works very well.

And about half the cost. Gop dupes!

I wonder what the comparison would be if your party hadn't destroyed our system in the first place.

How did that happen, dupe?

 

[Claudette]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

Only an idiot like you would want the Govt. in charge of HC for three hundred million Americans.

The Govt. that has never done anything cheaply or well.

The Govt. that turns into mountains of paperwork, red tape and long waits.

The Govt. has no business in HC at all and anyone who thinks they do is one dumb fuck.

I have argued before on this....

All the best value systems in the world are Single Payer... People can buy insurance to go on top of that... I pay about $100 a month in Ireland to get a full choice of doctor and care I want. No government control.

But I do get medicines at a far reduced cost compared to America.

The US is paying 17.1% of GDP on Healthcare, the EU is spending 10%:
France spends 11.5%, rated as the best in the world.
Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) | Data

France has better results on child mortality, Cancer survival, live longer,.......
ALL CANCERS DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

I could go on for hours on why...

In the first world the more public spending healthcare the better the results... I have proven that well in the past...

Compare the administration costs of Medicare compared to a regular Insurance companies...
It is 1.4% compared to 20%+...

Important: What are Medicare’s true administrative costs? - PNHP's Official Blog
Health insurance companies are doomed. Here's why.

And it still gets worse... EU drastically reduces costs in bulk negotiating on the price of drugs with Pharma and Medical device companies...
Why the U.S. Pays More Than Other Countries for Drugs

Is it perfect in EU? No, but it looks a lot better by the numbers...

Certain places Private is great, Basic Healthcare insurance is not one of them...

Yeah and everyone who can't afford to take care of themselves will be taken care of by we the taxpayer.

That may work for you but it sure as shit doesn't work for me.

I'm not interested in paying for anyones health care but my own.

The Govt. fucks up everything it touches.

 

[Claudette]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.

Single payer means it comes out of taxes. Tough shytte for the rich.

Not only the rich dumbass. Everyones taxes will be used to pay for those who can't pay for themselves.

God you are a moron.

 

[BluesLegend]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.

Single payer means it comes out of taxes. Tough shytte for the rich.

Not only the rich dumbass. Everyones taxes will be used to pay for those who can't pay for themselves.

God you are a moron.

This one is the poster child for liberal drone. Check out his sig line manifesto

 

[Claudette]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.

Single payer means it comes out of taxes. Tough shytte for the rich.

Not only the rich dumbass. Everyones taxes will be used to pay for those who can't pay for themselves.

God you are a moron.

This one is the poster child for liberal drone. Check out his sig line manifesto

He and Shittingbull are the most biased hacks on this board. They should marry. They deserve each other. LOL

 

[BluesLegend]

Single payer, you pay your own bills and stop mooching off me I like it.

Single payer means it comes out of taxes. Tough shytte for the rich.

Not only the rich dumbass. Everyones taxes will be used to pay for those who can't pay for themselves.

God you are a moron.

This one is the poster child for liberal drone. Check out his sig line manifesto

He and Shittingbull are the most biased hacks on this board. They should marry. They deserve each other. LOL

Do you really want those two breeding?