Replace the ACA with single payer

[Penelope]

I believe unregulated capitalism is evil...

I do believe in capitalism but what some on this board wish for is something that history should of taught people to reject.

What others wish for, socialism, is truly evil. Why I hate libtards.

What is evil is pure capitalism. That is evil.

Whats evil is folks like you who think we taxpayers should bankroll everyone.

That is evil.

You know what , if the elites paid their taxes there would be plenty to go around.

You know what.

Those rich elites you talk about pay about 60% of the Fed taxes in this country. No telling how much they pay in State and local taxes.

We have 47 to 49% who pay no taxes at all. The welfare crowd.

You sure are an uninformed dumbass.

I wasn't born yesterday, and no the rich elites pay few taxes and Trumps wants to lower the top bracket down.

You are the one uninformed. 50% of those not paying taxes are seniors , college age and the poor who do not make enough to pay taxes, and unemployed. A huge thank you is owned to elite corps who hire Visa employees, (import workers) export jobs (Like the Trumps, buy everything from overseas) and the corps who actually pick up their factories and move them for lower salary workers, so they can make more money.

I forgot some, the elites like Donald J. Trump.

 

[Rustic]

Well what do you mean by "private healthcare association" here?

Replicate the single payer model, but make it voluntary and independent of politicians. Have individuals that want to participate pay into it in order to drive down costs, and leave out those that do not want to participate.

You also do not cause collateral damage under this solution. Looking at the NHS in the UK, some individuals end up paying more in taxes than they save on healthcare. Even if they are a minority, they do not deserve to be forced into a system that hurts them financially.

But it doesn't work. Because this then leaves people choosing between paying in or feeding their families. It doesn't work because many people don't feel that healthcare should be something you don't get.

This isn't something normal, this is people's health we're talking about, and why should a person who is richer get better healthcare? I mean if I work 60 hours a week why should I get worse healthcare than someone who just happens to be rich?

Yes, some people end up paying more in taxes. This people will earn more because of the stability of the country, some will own their own businesses and rely on the healthy workforce to make them money, so they pay more.

Yes, they deserve to be forced into a system which "hurts them financially" but also allows them to get rich.

Other peoples situation is none of your fucking business, if they are richer than you who gives a fucking shit are you some type of meddling little fucker can't handle life? You little control freaks need to knock it off stay the fuck out of other peoples lives you little fuck.

 

[Rustic]

What others wish for, socialism, is truly evil. Why I hate libtards.

What is evil is pure capitalism. That is evil.

Whats evil is folks like you who think we taxpayers should bankroll everyone.

That is evil.

You know what , if the elites paid their taxes there would be plenty to go around.

You know what.

Those rich elites you talk about pay about 60% of the Fed taxes in this country. No telling how much they pay in State and local taxes.

We have 47 to 49% who pay no taxes at all. The welfare crowd.

You sure are an uninformed dumbass.

I wasn't born yesterday, and no the rich elites pay few taxes and Trumps wants to lower the top bracket down.

You are the one uninformed. 50% of those not paying taxes are seniors , college age and the poor who do not make enough to pay taxes, and unemployed. A huge thank you is owned to elite corps who hire Visa employees, (import workers) export jobs (Like the Trumps, buy everything from overseas) and the corps who actually pick up their factories and move them for lower salary workers, so they can make more money.

I know you can't help being a taker, stay the fuck out of other peoples lives...

 

[Rustic]

But it doesn't work. Because this then leaves people choosing between paying in or feeding their families.

So your solution is to force their hand and let their family starve?

It doesn't work because many people don't feel that healthcare should be something you don't get.

Then they shouldn't be forced to get it. It isn't your business to control others peoples lives.

Yes, they deserve to be forced into a system which "hurts them financially" but also allows them to get rich.

So you are one of those 'it's for their own good' types? Good ideas don't need to be forced. You should spend less time terrorizing your fellow man with coercion and threats of violence, and start convincing them to sign on voluntarily to your community projects.

A society that survives through violence and intimidation isn't worth preserving. It is inhuman.

But they won't starve. Because of they don't have a job, they'll still get healthcare, if they can't pay for healthcare because they don't have a job, they'll still get healthcare. When they're working they'll pay taxes which contribute to this.

Other things I would implement would encourage people to work more than exist right now, however this isn't part of this topic so there's no need for more than I just said.

You say good ideas don't need to be forced. I think you're wrong. Some very good ideas are forced on people daily, and some bad ones too. I'm not an anarchist. I understand that a lot of people don't understand the impact of what is happening to them. Russians were horrified when Peter the Great moved the calendar to the same as western Europe because they thought they had lost days of their life. Clearly that wasn't the case. (then the west went and moved their calendar and the Russians didn't dare do it again.)
Vaccinations are often seen as negative by people who don't understand them, yet they've managed to reduce or eradicated lots of diseases that killed people.

The thing is, in the US, there are people who have to choose between eating and healthcare, in the UK there isn't. It's not terrorism, it's humanity.

Your a fucking snowflake, stay the fuck out of other peoples lives.

 

[Rustic]

It is always surprising to see that people who want socialized health care actually think they will get any health care at all.

Under socialized medicine there is no incentive to do well. You get your salary if your patients die, and you won't be overworked.

Except anyone who has experienced knows that you are wrong.

It's so easy to come on here with the same lame excuses for not doing something, it would be something else to PROVE your point. I bet you can't.

The US spends TWICE as much as other countries as a percentage of GDP.

Like I've said before, the US spends $2,500 per person on corruption whole the UK spends $3,7000 per person on the whole of healthcare.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2003/02/Int_Health_Comp.pdf

The US has half the number of physicians as Italy, less than Germany, France and Sweden (all from around the 1999/2000 time, the UK probably increased that number to more than the US over time).

New Zealand, Germany and Sweden all had more nurses than the US.

Many countries had more hospital admissions.

The number of hospital beds is more than double in Germany than the US, and even the UK which was in crisis had more beds than the US.

A few countries had more child immunization than the US.

But life expectancy is higher in all of the countries in the survey than the USA. The US had the highest levels of infant mortality. The second highest levels of deaths. The US was in the middle for deaths from cancer, with Italy, Australia, Sweden and Japan having lower levels. The US seems to have the highest level of lung cancer deaths. Only three countries have worse circulatory disease deaths.

Weirdest of all, the argument I got was that private healthcare they don't just kick you out, yet acute care length of stay, the US is actually quite low, whereas even the UK which was struggling at the time had a longer time for stay.

So the US spends loads of money, but does it give a better service to the people? No, just to the rich, the poor get a much worse service.

People need to be responsible for their own shit, and not expect someone else to pay for their Shit...

 

[Rustic]

But they won't starve.

Really? So if you moneys tight, the NHS will let you opt out of your dues? Of course not.

You say good ideas don't need to be forced. I think you're wrong.

You are wrong. Human society voluntarily adapts to good ideas when they are advocated for honestly and consistently. An idea which needs to be made mandatory is done so because it is flawed and contestable.

I'm not an anarchist. I understand that a lot of people don't understand the impact of what is happening to them.

What you are is dangerous. Your attitude is largely responsible for how inhuman and unloving modern society has become. I'll be honest, I detest your species.

In your world, people are mere toys for you to play with and experiment on. You treat society as a playground for your ideas, no matter how reckless they happen to be. You will make excuses to justify your policies. Collateral damage doesn't matter as long as you can write your ideas off as being a general success. Well reality check: The human race is not your plaything.

Can you honestly tell me that you have all of your own shit figured out? If not, then what gives you the right to dictate the beat for other people? I know the answer: It makes you feel like you have power over others. I can only imagine the dreams of grandeur trapped inside that head of yours, and how all your little policies play into the fantasy.

Vaccinations are often seen as negative by people who don't understand them, yet they've managed to reduce or eradicated lots of diseases that killed people.

I understand vaccinations. I understand that chickenpox, measles, and the common cold would all be fatal to human beings had vaccines existed 300 years ago.

That's hardly the point though. I'm just wondering when that slippery slope of power, sanctimony, and control is going to end.

The thing is, in the US, there are people who have to choose between eating and healthcare, in the UK there isn't. It's not terrorism, it's humanity.

Ha, what a fucking joke! There is nothing human about it. You can talk to the people that have been screwed over and scammed by the NHS and the crony bureaucrats that run it. Even you cannot deny that the NHS has resulted in collateral damage, which is simply unacceptable.

Until you let human nature play out, you are going to live in an inhuman chaotic society. What your kind has created is human nature gone wrong, and few are willing to fix the messes that your kind has created.

If money's tight, you probably won't be paying taxes. If you've made the decision to over budget yourself, you're still going to get healthcare not matter how badly you organize your finances.

You're wrong, humanity doesn't always go for the good things. We've shown this time and time and time and time again. Honesty? Come on, the two candidates for president in the US weren't exactly the most honest people in the world, and yet people are gushing over them. Why? Because they're humans and make a lot of flawed decisions, that's why.

You think I'm dangerous, maybe I think you're dangerous.

No, your view of me is wrong, you don't know me, you don't understand me. You have just presented a picture that you can attack, regardless of whether it fits me or not.

You understand vaccinations, does everyone? Do you think a 3 year old child understands? Do you think society should force vaccinations upon children who don't understand what they are other than some bastard is trying to stick a sharp needle in my arm?

I'm like you, I'm wary of power. The US has gone way over the edge of giving too much power to the rich, and that from starting out with the intention of giving people the power. What went wrong?

Listen, freedom is not anarchy and it's not fascism or communism. It's somewhere in between. If crime is too high, I'm not free, so measures are taken that are restrictive that are aimed at reducing crime. There's a balance. I've been to places that are restrictive, where the police are constantly asking for your passport and where you sure as hell don't give it to them, but if you don't you end up in prison, so you have to go to get your passport photocopies and notarized so they can't get you, that isn't freedom.

It's always a balance. Are you free if everyone can choose to get vaccinations? Not really, because outbreaks of things can happen and this then causes problems in society that you'll end up having to pay for. The reason people vote is so that we can get as close to this balance as possible, problem in the US is the system needs a massive overhaul in order to bring it back. But there are still going to be laws that require you to pay taxes, obey the laws or else go to prison, and there are always going to be things that are forced on people like education and certain health requirements

You might think this is restrictive, but it's probably because you've never been anywhere restrictive.

Take China. The CCP, many people look on them as bad. They do do bad things, but then so does the US govt. They outlawed the binding of feet. Women had to have small feet to get a good husband in the past, they saw this as bad, without the CCP this wouldn't have changed. Do you think people should be pressured within society to bind the feet of their daughters, or do you think it's better that the govt forbids this? I think the latter.

You talk about things having gone wrong, yet the US is where everything is going really wrong and nothing is changing because there are too many people in society who refuse to change things for the better. They are suspicious of their govt, and yet support their govt's power to do things and cause suspicion. It's bizarre.

Things that you think may be good make a life a living hell for the next guy… Fact

 

[AmericanFirst1]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

Only an idiot like you would want the Govt. in charge of HC for three hundred million Americans.

The Govt. that has never done anything cheaply or well.

The Govt. that turns into mountains of paperwork, red tape and long waits.

The Govt. has no business in HC at all and anyone who thinks they do is one dumb fuck.

I have argued before on this....

All the best value systems in the world are Single Payer... People can buy insurance to go on top of that... I pay about $100 a month in Ireland to get a full choice of doctor and care I want. No government control.

But I do get medicines at a far reduced cost compared to America.

The US is paying 17.1% of GDP on Healthcare, the EU is spending 10%:
France spends 11.5%, rated as the best in the world.
Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) | Data

France has better results on child mortality, Cancer survival, live longer,.......
ALL CANCERS DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

I could go on for hours on why...

In the first world the more public spending healthcare the better the results... I have proven that well in the past...

Compare the administration costs of Medicare compared to a regular Insurance companies...
It is 1.4% compared to 20%+...

Important: What are Medicare’s true administrative costs? - PNHP's Official Blog
Health insurance companies are doomed. Here's why.

And it still gets worse... EU drastically reduces costs in bulk negotiating on the price of drugs with Pharma and Medical device companies...
Why the U.S. Pays More Than Other Countries for Drugs

Is it perfect in EU? No, but it looks a lot better by the numbers...

Certain places Private is great, Basic Healthcare insurance is not one of them...

Yeah and everyone who can't afford to take care of themselves will be taken care of by we the taxpayer.

That may work for you but it sure as shit doesn't work for me.

I'm not interested in paying for anyones health care but my own.

The Govt. fucks up everything it touches.

I hope someday you become a homeless begger.

You first commie

 

[AmericanFirst1]

I believe unregulated capitalism is evil...

I do believe in capitalism but what some on this board wish for is something that history should of taught people to reject.

What others wish for, socialism, is truly evil. Why I hate libtards.

Socialism works great till you run out of other peoples money.

How right Maggie Thatcher was.

Well since the elites made it off the backs of the working class they can pay for it. How is that. They can at least pay taxes.

You want socialism so much move commie.

 

[pwjohn]

No, I'm someone who has USED some of these systems, I know they can work. What do you have? Nothing. You read through it three times and still you have nothing.

You say the govt shouldn't pay. But we were talking about something else. You make silly claims, like it will be more expensive, I prove it won't be, then you say there is nothing.

Sorry, but your post is a waste of time with the usual "liberals this and liberals that" nonsense.

Apparently you haven't used the systems if you think they can work. History has proven that the government is totally incompetent, and common sense dictates that if a Business makes money off of you regardless of performance, and that if you have no other options, there's no incentive to work properly.

It WILL be more expensive, the other Nations implementing this failed system have higher taxes, faster growing debt, or both.

It's not nonsense if it's totally accurate.

What a ridiculous statement. You claim to be a 15 year old, so what's your experience exactly? You have the nerve to tell me that you know my experiences better than I know my own. Seriously, grow up.

Yeah, but he's basically right about that last statement.

When government is paying the bills, then you are not a customer. If you are not a customer, then you are nothing more than a problem. You are an annoyance to the employees.

And that's the way you are treated in many of these systems. I've seen it first hand. I went to a free-gov-care clinic years ago, and watched in horror as the nurse was absolutely a jerk to the people there. Then it occurred to me, she doesn't care if they stay or leave. The clinic is funded whether she has 20 patients, or sees zero. The doctor, was dressed in blue jeans and a sports cap. He looked like he was going to a football game, not to a doctor's office.

Even the very chair I was sitting on, started tilting on me, and I realized two of the legs were broken. Why didn't they fix it? Or replace the chair? Well why would they? They get paid, whether I'm comfortable, or sitting on the floor. They couldn't care less if I stayed or left. That's government care. I ended up waiting a full hour past the time that I was scheduled. Again, they don't care.

Now, when I go to my regular doctor, I am seen the moment I am supposed to be seen. The waiting room is clean, and comfortable. The doctor is dressed exactly as a doctor should, and the nurses are exceptionally nice.

But of course...... I'm paying them. I'm the customer. If they lose me, they lose my money. They lose too much money, they don't have jobs anymore.

Completely different system.

That's why you go to Canada and see people waiting 3 years to get basic treatment, and in most places in the US you wait 3 days.

The only places with long wait times in the US, are gov-funded care centers. The VA for example.

My bro-in-law is ex-military, and he waited so long for VA care, that he finally just saved up the money, and got instant treatment at a private clinic. He says he'll never wait for the VA again. He might be wrong, if you guys make all US care like the VA.

Yes, when the govt is paying the bills, you aren't a customer. When insurance companies are paying the bills, you aren't a customer either.

Like I said, in the US under insurance companies you're spending, on average per person, $2,500 on corruption alone. In the UK on average per person the health system costs $3,700. So, when insurance companies get in on it, they're not seeing you as a customer but as a cow to milked the whole damn way.

When doctors are handing out the pills, are they thinking about the customer's pocket or their own pocket? They make you pay, they hand them out, is this better care than not being given drugs?

What healthcare system works whereby the person is actually a customer who needs to be give the right care? I'd say my experience of a nationalized healthcare system is far closer to this than a privatized one.
I cut part of my finger off with a pair of scissors and was told that I'd need to spend THREE WEEKS in a hospital bed. I told them to get lost and was back at work a few hours later. Why did they want me to spend 3 weeks in hospital? Well, profit of course. I've also had a lung problem (still don't know what it actually was, no one would tell me) but I needed to get a scan of my lungs. Went to one hospital and they said I would have to come back in 4 days to do it, and it would cost waaaaay to much (this wasn't the USA), went to another hospital and they did it that day for 1/3rd of the cost.

My experience of nationalized hospitals are that they can be good or they can be not so good, and it often depends on whether the govt is left wing or right wing, the latter wants to destroy nationalized healthcare and so spends less money on it and lets it rot while saying how great they are for reducing taxes.

I was more a customer in the nationalized system, and more the cow in the private system.

As for free govt care hospitals, perhaps the private system makes those not in the private system not work so hard, like I said, you can get good or bad, it all depends on how things are done.

The biggest problem is the can't do attitude in the US.

A nationalized healthcare system is all about waste, fraud and abuse...

Oh it's coming. Like it or not.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

Take it from a Canadian who has seen socialism first hand, from subversive tactics of government to failed socialised medicine, it will cost you more than you think.

The wait times just to see your MD have gone up dramatically due to shortage of doctors, mass abuse of the system and cutbacks. Many people are waiting months to get a simple MRI which could mean the difference between life and death. There have been stories of people who had a stage one cancer but by the time they saw the specialist, had the tests and results back they had weeks to live, some have passed away WAITING to see a specialist.

Those who can afford it are going to America for the speed and faith in the results. Those who can't often wait, and wait and wait. I am not exaggerating when I say months. Many are sacrificed on the alter of socialism.

The free market, individual liberties and choices is the best system. You are free to pursue your dreams and goals in life without government intervention. Free to compete and win market share, to expand and pursue happiness as you define it. You are free to get medical attention immediately when needed and receive a reasonable time to deal with potentially life threatening illnesses.

Don't be intoxicated by those who would have you believe in the false narrative of socialism. It fosters distrust, abuses of authority and a strict adherence to centralised government control which will impede on your life in ways you couldn't imagine.

 

[Norman]

I believe unregulated capitalism is evil...

I do believe in capitalism but what some on this board wish for is something that history should of taught people to reject.

Yes, we know. You think you should be able to say what people have or do not have for health care, and anything else than that would be evil.

This is precisely why you should have no say in anything.

 

[RodISHI]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Tell an uninsured person that the US has the best healthcare. No it should not be privatized.

I am uninsured and I can assure you that the entire current system is more fucked up than I have seen it in my years here on earth. The political hacks and greedy assholes who say that they are only interested in making sure everyone is treated well have done all of this under the color of 'looking out for everyone's best interest which is absolute bullshit. We have the most incompetent people in a hell of a lot of places and positions of decision making where they should have never been allowed telling other people what they will, can and cannot do.

 

[2aguy]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

And that will be the end of medical innovation and quality healthcare in America.....single payer sucks around the world....and with a country of 320 million people and corrupt politicians...to expect them to get national single payer right when they can't even effectively run the V.A. is insane....

 

[Penelope]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Tell an uninsured person that the US has the best healthcare. No it should not be privatized.

I am uninsured and I can assure you that the entire current system is more fucked up than I have seen it in my years here on earth. The political hacks and greedy assholes who say that they are only interested in making sure everyone is treated well have done all of this under the color of 'looking out for everyone's best interest which is absolute bullshit. We have the most incompetent people in a hell of a lot of places and positions of decision making where they should have never been allowed telling other people what they will, can and cannot do.

Go on, lets hear more, are you on the ACA? Are you employed, if not why not. Are you retired?

 

[2aguy]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

They can only afford their mediocre healthcare by having the U.S. supply their national defense...if they actually had to pay for their own militaries to stand up to Russia, they couldn't afford even the bad healthcare systems they currently have....

 

[Rustic]

Single payer is communism

 

[Penelope]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

And that will be the end of medical innovation and quality healthcare in America.....single payer sucks around the world....and with a country of 320 million people and corrupt politicians...to expect them to get national single payer right when they can't even effectively run the V.A. is insane....

Who says they can't run the VA? The Pubs, everyone I know in MI that went to the VA had care, the main issue is the driving to a hospital. That is why all Vets should use public hosps when they are released from VA rehab.

 

[Crixus]

Replace the ACA with single payer the rest of the civilized world enjoys. Lets not be left out in the cold!!!!

-It would be cheaper
-Moral

Only rich can afford what the ryans of this world want. That is wrong.

You forgot the Obama's, Bidens, Pelosi's, Reed's and everyone else in the political ruling class who are not subject to ACA, but get the best medical care the tax payers can buy. Oh yeah, if the rest of the "civilized" world likes their medical care so much, why do they all come here to get fixed?

 

[RodISHI]

.

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

Notice every single place you cited has worse healthcare than America before we Socialized, and our economy is significantly better. Healthcare should be privatized entirely.

You also don't seem to know what the word "works" means.

Tell an uninsured person that the US has the best healthcare. No it should not be privatized.

I am uninsured and I can assure you that the entire current system is more fucked up than I have seen it in my years here on earth. The political hacks and greedy assholes who say that they are only interested in making sure everyone is treated well have done all of this under the color of 'looking out for everyone's best interest which is absolute bullshit. We have the most incompetent people in a hell of a lot of places and positions of decision making where they should have never been allowed telling other people what they will, can and cannot do.

Go on, lets hear more, are you on the ACA? Are you employed, if not why not. Are you retired?

Its is all a longer story than I desire to reiterate on USMB. No insurance. Not employed since 2007 when I was covered in caustic chemicals on the job and the employer and insurance company refused adequate medical care or even an accurate account of the chemicals that I was covered in. It took me four years to locate what the actual chemicals were. Basically the state assisted the insurance company, the chemical company and the employer in covering over what they did. Applied for SSI hoping for some assistance in figuring out ways to overcome being disabled or at least a little financial help while I personally figured out what I could do to try to overcome what had happened to me from that chemical exposure.It was denied. Thank God for that as I learned through researching on my own the last year that with natural holistic methods and herbs I could rebuild my damaged lungs, with holistic measures I overcome the pain in my heart that had started after the chemical disaster. Plus I also learned I could have avoided at least four surgeries in my life prior to the chemical exposure had the information been available then that is now available to both doctors and anyone who dedicates themselves to seeking it out on the Internet.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Why not? Seriously, Canada, Uk, Germany, France, and on down the list have it. It is a proven system and it works. I seriously believe that our healthcare system shouldn't be about jacking up the price just because you're sick. That is wrong.

really?
Last time I checked our population is about 10 times Canada's...the matrix of the populations are very different also.
And then there is military cost...Canada enjoys the absolute LUXURY of having the strongest military in the world 5 times over as a next door neighbor.
Canada has the 3rd lowest military spending in the 28 NATO countries....1/4th of 1 percent of what the U.S. military spending is.
We haven't even talked about whopping taxation differences...it isn't apples to apples. Not even close.